History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedTop 100 Generals

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1920212223 122>
Author
Emperor Barbarossa View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar

Joined: 15-Jul-2005
Location: Pittsburgh, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2882
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2006 at 12:46
"
1. You mentioned that Julius Caesar did not even invade a united country. I assume by this you mean Gaul? Need I remind you he also won a civil war in the Roman Republic, though because it was a civil war the country was not technically 'united'. Iinitially it was his army, from Gaul, against every other legion and fleet and every territory in the Roman Republic (except Gaul which he had conquered himself) which included Asia minor (turkey) Macedonia, Greece, the Iberian Pennisula, Italy, Syria and North Africa, and in the middle of the civil war found time to defeat both Ptolemy XIII and his advisor Pothinus in Egypt with token forces, and Pharnaces II of Pontus. It may not have been "all of Europe" but it might as well have been. I believe Napoleon faced greater odds than Caesar but the odds are at least comparable and in the end Caesar triumphed unlike Napoleon and made fewer mistakes in doing so."
Napoleon may not have triumphed, but let us not forget he has to face the best military powers of his day. Just because a general failed does not make him worse than another general. Caesar had a great victory in the Roman Civil War, but he did not get as great a challenge as Napoleon. Though Napoleon may not be the second best, he deserves in the top 10.

Back to Top
macon View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Slovenia
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote macon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 05:13
I think you should consider scale on which General was fighting. If someone was moving few hundreds or thousands under command of someone else and did good it means only tactic level. Other thing is to move tens of thousands of troops under independent command, implement fighting technique changes, conquer wast countries and turn history into another direction. That's why Napoleon, Julius, Ghenghis are on top.
 
 
Japanese I mentioned all did campaigns and battles on highest level: against on paper stronger enemies, their battles involved tens of thousands of fighters and they turned Japanese history into another direction. Their formations were far bigger than any European in their time but their actions did not have impact on whole world's history at the time. They were doing intra Japanese fighting.
 
 
-Minamoto Yoritomo (founder of first shogunate, destroyed Taira clan in 3 mythical battles from which derives all Japanese military history. 12th century.).
 
-Kusunoki Masashige (destroyer of Hojo shogunate in 14th century, won a battle when he stopped around hundred thousand of Hojo samurais who were on their way from Kamakura to conquer Kyoto, he was defending fortified position with only few thousand samurais against vastly superior enemy. He was fighting for emperor and finally perished in battle when he was ordered by emperor to battle Ashikaga Takauji who formed Ashikaga shogunate after winning him. Kusunoki was against battling Ashikaga who had numbers and terrain superiority but followed orders knowing he will loose. He is example of highest possible warrior loyalty in Japanese history.)
 
-Oda Nobunaga (military reformer in 16th century, he implemented mass use of musqets, conquered central part of Japan, destroyed warrior monks, many minor clans, Imagawa clan on start of his career (did attack in rain with 5000 troops on camp with 25.000 Imagawas who were on route to Kyoto to claim shogunate. Also destroyed strong Takeda clan under Takeda Shingen's stupid successor Katsuyori who tried to bulldoze his army with his cavalry. Lots of firepower on Oda's side against cavalry... brrr massacre- Takedas should just cut their leader's head when ordered to do what they did - died for nothing. He was about to claim shogunate when betrayed by one of his generals (I don't remember name) and forced to do seppuku.
 
-Toyotomi Hideyoshi (number one commander of Oda Nobunaga, he avenged his death by defeating traitors, of peasant birth (check what was he pulling to reach his position from small ashigaru, genious) which stopped him to become shogun. He won battles for Oda clan before that. He ordered invasion of Korea where he sent hald of Japanese Samurais, around 300.000 of them but did not lead them personally. Japanese nearly conquered all of Korea when China intervened with more than half mil of soldiery and pushed Japanese out (but more due to supply problems of Japanese not because they kicked their ass on battlefield). Imagine such numbers in Europe in this time = around 1580. Did not die by swordd but of normal death. 
 
-Tokugawa Ieyasu (final uniter of Japan, after him there was no real civil war in Japan. Also capable general but not under command of Oda clan, his clan was ally of Odas. Conquered Canto region of Hojo clan (don't mix them with Hojo shogunate in 14th century), present day Tokio and surroundings. Hojos had over 60,000 soldiery! Turned Edo (today Tokio) into city and later seat of shogunate. Won battle of Sekigahara in 1600 against united forces fighting for successor of Toyotomi Hideyoshi. 80,000 involved on each side! Won siege of Osaka castle defended by successor of Toyotomi and ronin (masterless) samurais from whole Japan who defended it. More than one year of fight and more than 100k involved on each side!) 
 
 
After them come Takeda Shingen, Uyesugi Kenshin, Ashikaga Takauji...
Takeda and Shingen were mostly fighting against each other, they formed strong provincial clans but never did anything real important on whole national scale. Ashikaga Takauji was also former of shogunate, of course Ashikaga shogunate which was dispersed in 15th century in Onin war (Hosokawa:Yamana) which started 100 years of civil wars which were ended by Tokugawa Ieyasu.  
 
 
Back to Top
macon View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Slovenia
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote macon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 05:18
Takeda and Uyesugi, not Takeda and Shingen... :(
Back to Top
Quinnthology View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 23-Sep-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quinnthology Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 19:20
George Washington should not be on this list. He held the army together and in that sense deserves much credit, but he was a lousy general with many more big losses than wins, with most of his victories being draws or raids rather than battle victories. GW should be on a top 100 leaders or top 100 Men of Integrity and Firmness list.

If an American general from the Revolution is on there, it should be Benedict Arnold. He was the most successful general in the beginning of the Revolution (despite Quebec). He is also one of the only men who has successfully fought on both sides in a big war (capture of Richmond and Ft. Griswold for the British), which is very, very impressive and interesting.
Back to Top
Timotheus View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 15-Aug-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 479
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timotheus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 23:13
I would disagree. Greene was better than Arnold (though you are right in saying Washington should not be there. He was a poor general, contrary to myth, though an excellent leader.) Arnold was too full of himself to be a good general and messed up on more than Quebec.
Back to Top
Quinnthology View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 23-Sep-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quinnthology Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 04:18
I don't think you can compare the two. My statement was that that Arnold was the most successful of the first few years of the war. Greene's early year campaigns are filled with raids (Trenton, Princeton), draws (Monmouth) and losses (Brandywine, Germantown). His success did not come until his southern years with Cornwallis, the same year Arnold had left, and even then his stand-and-run style fighting is questionably deserving of being on a top 100 list.
Back to Top
Emperor Barbarossa View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar

Joined: 15-Jul-2005
Location: Pittsburgh, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2882
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 18:00
Originally posted by Timotheus Timotheus wrote:

I would disagree. Greene was better than Arnold (though you are right in saying Washington should not be there. He was a poor general, contrary to myth, though an excellent leader.) Arnold was too full of himself to be a good general and messed up on more than Quebec.

Yes, Washington, except for his great victory at the Battle of Trenton was a poor commander. He did horrible in New York. I think Daniel Morgan deserves a mention in the 80s or 90s of the list for his great use of militia at the Battle of the Cowpens to beat Tarleton.

Back to Top
Timotheus View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 15-Aug-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 479
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timotheus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 21:04
Daniel Morgan was a great fighter and military leader, but only a colonel, not a general. He served under Greene and got a lot of his ideas from him.
Back to Top
Zimisce View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 01-Aug-2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zimisce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 06:04
And what about the great John Tsimisces??? He's in my top list.
Back to Top
Lincoln View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 11-Oct-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lincoln Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 10:37
I have a question, why is montrose not placed on the fourth ed. and only ranks 92 on the other one. John Buchan placed him on par with Lee and Welligton.
Back to Top
Emperor Barbarossa View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar

Joined: 15-Jul-2005
Location: Pittsburgh, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2882
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 18:26
Originally posted by Timotheus Timotheus wrote:

Daniel Morgan was a great fighter and military leader, but only a colonel, not a general. He served under Greene and got a lot of his ideas from him.

Okay, never mind about Daniel Morgan then.

Back to Top
Timotheus View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 15-Aug-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 479
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timotheus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 21:53
Originally posted by Lincoln Lincoln wrote:

I have a question, why is montrose not placed on the fourth ed. and only ranks 92 on the other one. John Buchan placed him on par with Lee and Welligton.


Because he was a traitor!! Angry And so was Tzimisces!
Back to Top
Quinnthology View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 23-Sep-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quinnthology Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 22:11
what relevance does being a traitor have to the victories you achieve prior to deserting one side? the question is not moralistic but based on military merit and intelligence.
Back to Top
black_toe04 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 12-Oct-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote black_toe04 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 07:20
There are something wrong in that list!
Do you know: Marshal Tran Hung Dao (Tran Quoc Tuan) and General Vo Nguyen Giap from Vietnam?
They are two of the ninety-eight greatest generals of all time which were voted by Royal Society. 
Back to Top
DSMyers1 View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 603
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 09:11
Originally posted by black_toe04 black_toe04 wrote:

There are something wrong in that list!
Do you know: Marshal Tran Hung Dao (Tran Quoc Tuan) and General Vo Nguyen Giap from Vietnam?
They are two of the ninety-eight greatest generals of all time which were voted by Royal Society. 


I guess I don't agree with the Royal Society.  Do you have a link to their list of the 98 greatest generals?
The Top 100 Generals | Leaders



God is my Judge
Back to Top
Lincoln View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 11-Oct-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lincoln Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 09:47
I just recently read the book Genghis Khan, his life and legacy by Paul Ratchnevsky, and this book stated that Genghis lost as many battle in the steppe wars as he won, is this true?
     Also if you are looking for American Indian leaders, perhaps you should look at Little Turtle who inflicted the worse defeat on a U. S. army that it ever experienced at the hands of an Indian.
    I was also curious why you didn't include Hamilcar Barca in your list, He fought brilliantly against the romans and was never defeated.
As far as Montrose goes Timotheos I disagree with you about his being a traitor, but I agree with quinnthology, that being a traitor doesn't effect one's military abilities. As far as those go he won 7 decisive victories against supior numbers and although he was desisively defeated twice, he was fighting in both battles against overwhelming odds.
Back to Top
Praetor View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 26-Jun-2006
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 383
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Praetor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 11:41
Originally posted by Lincoln Lincoln wrote:

I just recently read the book Genghis Khan, his life and legacy by Paul Ratchnevsky, and this book stated that Genghis lost as many battle in the steppe wars as he won, is this true?

 
I don't know if its true or not but I do no that Genghis Khan suffered multiple defeats in his career particularly against rival khan and former Blood brother Jamuqa who was a superior tactician but an inferior strategist and politician which was the primary reason he lost the war. Genghis Khan was a strategist of the highest order however though a fine tactician he is not the equal of the likes of Hannibal and belisarius in this regard.

Originally posted by Lincoln Lincoln wrote:


 I was also curious why you didn't include Hamilcar Barca in your list, He fought brilliantly against the romans and was never defeated.


I agreeThumbs Up Hamilcar was to hannibal in many ways what Phillip was to Alexander. A fine guerilla leader and strategist aside from his exploits against the Romans he won the truceless war for carthage. can you imagine: your proffesional army (veterans of the punic wars and Libyans) has revolted against you and all you have to face them with is some carthaginian militia (outnumbered) and some elephants! and he manages to pull it off! Ontop of that he is the one responsible for  restablishing the carthaginian powerbase in spain (along with his successors Hasdrubel "the Fair" and Hannibal Barca).


Edited by Praetor - 18-Oct-2006 at 03:05
Back to Top
black_toe04 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 12-Oct-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote black_toe04 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 22:40
For your reference:

Trần Hưng Đạo (陳興道) (1228-1300) was a Vietnamese Grand Commander-in-Chief during the Trần Dynasty. Born as Trần Quốc Tuấn (陳國峻), he commanded the Đại Việt (Dai Viet) armies that repelled two major Mongol invasions in the 13th century. His multiple victories over the mighty Mongol Yuan Dynasty under Kublai Khan are considered among the greatest military feats in world history. General Trần Hưng Đạo's military brilliance and prowess is reflected in his many treatises on warfare and is a one of the most accomplished generals in history. He is also one of a very few generals in history to have never lost a single battle or war under his command.

In 1984, a forum of historians from around the world, held in London, England, nominated Trần Hưng Đạo as one of the top 10 generals in world history. In Vietnam, he - along with the Trưng sisters is worshiped as a folk god in Vietnamese folklore and considered as the best general ever in Vietnamese history, even greater than the better-known (to Westerners) General Vơ Nguyên Giáp, Commander-in-Chief of North Vietnamese army during the Vietnam War.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tr%E1%BA%A7n_H%C6%B0ng_%C4%90%E1%BA%A1o)


Back to Top
DSMyers1 View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 603
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 09:36
Originally posted by black_toe04 black_toe04 wrote:

For your reference:

Trần Hưng Đạo (陳興道) (1228-1300) was a Vietnamese Grand Commander-in-Chief during the Trần Dynasty. Born as Trần Quốc Tuấn (陳國峻), he commanded the Đại Việt (Dai Viet) armies that repelled two major Mongol invasions in the 13th century. His multiple victories over the mighty Mongol Yuan Dynasty under Kublai Khan are considered among the greatest military feats in world history. General Trần Hưng Đạo's military brilliance and prowess is reflected in his many treatises on warfare and is a one of the most accomplished generals in history. He is also one of a very few generals in history to have never lost a single battle or war under his command.

In 1984, a forum of historians from around the world, held in London, England, nominated Trần Hưng Đạo as one of the top 10 generals in world history. In Vietnam, he - along with the Trưng sisters is worshiped as a folk god in Vietnamese folklore and considered as the best general ever in Vietnamese history, even greater than the better-known (to Westerners) General Vơ Nguyên Giáp, Commander-in-Chief of North Vietnamese army during the Vietnam War.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tr%E1%BA%A7n_H%C6%B0ng_%C4%90%E1%BA%A1o)




Very nice information.  He definitely sounds like a good candidate for this list.  I'll look into his history and try to identify an appropriate placement.  Thanks for the input!


The Top 100 Generals | Leaders



God is my Judge
Back to Top
Pusu6600 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 24-Oct-2006
Location: Turkey
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pusu6600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 12:21
First is Sultan Mehmed II(Conqueror)

Edited by Pusu6600 - 24-Oct-2006 at 13:56
www.tariholoji.com

Türkiyenin İlk Tarih Ve Siyaset Forumu
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1920212223 122>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.281 seconds.