History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedThe Universe

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Northman View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
~ Scylding ~

Joined: 30-Aug-2004
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 4433
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 13:30
I remember one thing that helped me to realise how big the universe is, was just to scale our solar system down to a more conceiveable size.
 
Imagine we scale everything down to a scale where our star, the sun would have the size of an orange - and place that orange in the middle of a soccer field here in Denmark.
  • The earth would be a grain of dust or a pinpoint, orbiting half way towards the sideline.
  • The outmost planet, Neptun - an even smaller grain of dust - would not be on the field - but orbiting in the distance of three soccer fields - still in relation to the little orange (sun) in the middle of the first field.
Maybe not so impressive you might think - but what about the distance to the next orange (the closest star to our sun) - where would we be looking for that in this scale? 
Before you read on, try to imagine where we should place that second orange. In another part of town? - or even in the next city perhaps?? 
 
When you have an idea of your own of how much empty space there is between two neighboring stars, scaled down to oranges - read the correct answer by highlighting the empty space   ROME, ITALY   here.
 
Another little trivia is, that it will take us 100,000 years to go there with the speed we travel in space today, ie. when we go to the moon.
 
 


Edited by Northman - 19-Feb-2009 at 13:34
Back to Top
SearchAndDestroy View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2733
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 14:07
Wow, thats pretty impressive to think about North. You always have this image growing up of a science fair Solar System and how close everything seems to be. Put it in your scale and it's kind of mind blowing to think about just how far everything is.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
Back to Top
Ponce de Leon View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Really Hot Stuff

Joined: 11-Jan-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2975
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 14:15
Dont worry folks. By the time I turn 150 years old we will be mining rocks at the asteroid belt for the big space voyage to planet X =)
Back to Top
Cezar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 09-Nov-2005
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 1211
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 14:44
I missed the topic question. Just because it had something to do with religion.
Let's see:
Quote my question to you guys is do humans really matter? I mean we are so small in the Universe that our worth is almost nothing. what is the universe? its a mystery that can probably never be solved
Humans matter to humans and that's what really matters. To paraphrase a departed US president: "Don't ask what you matter for the Universe, ask what the Universe matters to you".
The Sun cares s---t for me so what? I can live with that. In fact I don't know if the Sun "cares". There's still a lot to know* about our Universe. Do we need to know more? Yes we do. Not because it matters for the Universe, it matters to us.
 
Quote However, after watching this video, religion sounds like a man made thing, i mean why would god come down to meet Moses when humans and earth are almost nothing compared with this universe.
Just for the fun: why wouldn't God have come to Moses? It looks like you are looking for a reason for God's decision to contact Moses. The problem is here not if God decided something but if God exists. 'cause if He does then your question needs to answer why God wouldn't have contacted Moses. I mean you contest the whole religion just because God woould have had no reson to talk to a person? It's like saying this I don't exist if I don't reply to your post (which I did so I'm alive and kickingTongue)
 
*I don't like to use the designation "mystery" for the unknown.
Back to Top
Goocheslamb View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 16-Feb-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goocheslamb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2009 at 01:39
^ I am not saying god exists or doesn't exist. The truth is i really dont know. But the problem with religions is that they are very small and primitive compared to this universe.
 
i believe Shakespeare said it the best way "There are more things in heaven and earth, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy(religion)"
 
The point is all religions are very limited and many of the stories sound made up
 


Edited by Goocheslamb - 20-Feb-2009 at 01:44
Back to Top
Goocheslamb View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 16-Feb-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goocheslamb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2009 at 01:50
actually though while doing some research i did find some interesting qoutes in the Quran about Universe
 
Creation of the heavens and the earth is greater by far than the creation of mankind, though most people do not know it" (Qur'an 40:57)
 
He Who created the seven heavens one above another: No want of proportion wilt thou see in the Creation of the Most Gracious. So turn thy vision again: seest thou any flaw?" - Surah Al-Mulk
 
this is the most interesting qoute: And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)
 
^ possible big bang theory?
Back to Top
eaglecap View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 15-Feb-2005
Location: DesertSouthwest
Status: Offline
Points: 3265
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2009 at 18:23
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi Beylerbeyi wrote:

Quote <span ="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; ">However, after watching this video, religion sounds like a man made thing, i mean why would god come down to meet Moses when humans and earth are almost nothing compared with this universe.
</span>
<span ="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;">I think this was the main reason behind my decision to become an atheist at the tender age of 12-13. When one understands how mind-bogglingly huge and old the universe is and how new and insignificant we are in it, there is no way you can believe the fairy tales in Quran or Bible. Their incredible pettiness is suddenly revealed by the bright light of truth, and the mind breaks its shackles and goes free from such primitive superstition. </span>
<span ="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;"></span>
<span ="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px;">I think creationist nuts should be more worried about cosmology than evolution. Nothing destroys the myths quite like an understanding of modern cosmology.</span>


In my opinion, with all your vast knowledge of the universe you put God into a box. The enormous complexity of life and the universe only increases my belief in a creator but not a personal one like Christians for Muslims believe in. If I had a piece of paper which represented the universe and I asked you to show me how much knowledge of the vast Universe do you know? I would ask you to draw a line which would indicate your wisdom and knowledge. Would you draw a line half way across the paper or a third? For myself I would put a tiny dot on the paper that could not been seen without a microscope. The more I learned in college the more I realized how much I do not know so with all you knowledge how can you really say there is absolutely no creator? It is your right to not believe in God or a creator but remember there are no atheists in fox holes-
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
Back to Top
Paul View Drop Down
Editorial Staff
Editorial Staff
Avatar
AE Immoderator

Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
Status: Offline
Points: 966
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2009 at 18:37
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

there are no atheists in fox holes-
 
Dead right, you have to be really dumb to get into one of them.


Edited by Paul - 20-Feb-2009 at 18:37
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
Back to Top
eaglecap View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 15-Feb-2005
Location: DesertSouthwest
Status: Offline
Points: 3265
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2009 at 18:54
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

there are no atheists in fox holes-

 

Dead right, you have to be really dumb to get into one of them.


I try to avoid them myself!!

Paul are you really in Poland or a Polnad in an alternative universe?


Last night I stood outside and looked at all the stars in the desert night sky. It made me wish we lived in a star Trek/Star Gate world and were exploring the vase expanses of space.

Would we meet:


By knit_purr on Flickr

Or:


By SupaDope on Flickr


Name: wraith.jpg


HUMAN FORM REPLICATOR

hopefully the alien we encounter will be:


Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
Back to Top
arch.buff View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 18-Oct-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 604
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2009 at 06:43
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

I remember one thing that helped me to realise how big the universe is, was just to scale our solar system down to a more conceiveable size.
 
Imagine we scale everything down to a scale where our star, the sun would have the size of an orange - and place that orange in the middle of a soccer field here in Denmark.
  • The earth would be a grain of dust or a pinpoint, orbiting half way towards the sideline.
  • The outmost planet, Neptun - an even smaller grain of dust - would not be on the field - but orbiting in the distance of three soccer fields - still in relation to the little orange (sun) in the middle of the first field.
Maybe not so impressive you might think - but what about the distance to the next orange (the closest star to our sun) - where would we be looking for that in this scale? 
Before you read on, try to imagine where we should place that second orange. In another part of town? - or even in the next city perhaps?? 
 
When you have an idea of your own of how much empty space there is between two neighboring stars, scaled down to oranges - read the correct answer by highlighting the empty space   ROME, ITALY   here.
 
Another little trivia is, that it will take us 100,000 years to go there with the speed we travel in space today, ie. when we go to the moon.
 
 
Great analogy North!
 
When reading through this thread I was gonna first offer up a like analogy, but, as I see, you've done a fine job yourself. Thumbs Up 
 
But yes, our closest star - Proxima Centauri - located in the Alpha Centauri Complex, is about 4.3 light years away! Meaning, as you alluded to in your last, that we would have to travel at the speed of light for 4.3 years just to get there - literally impossible. Keep in mind, the speed of light is: 3x10^8 m/s or 300,000,000 meters per second!
 
Other than some compact dust grains(Ooort cloud), there is virtually nothing between our outer planets and this nearest solar system. I find this amazing.
 
Speaking from a Catholic viewpoint, I would only add that as far as feeling "important" comes from our ability of divinization, and of course our gift of the Eucharist. In other words, God's grace in allowing our participation, and His gifts, are what makes us important. These are all theological aspects that I wont get into here, but I guess you get the drift. Now, as far as feeling "center", I think we all know with the realization of Galileo and the Heliocentric model, as opposed to the Geocentric, that we are not in fact "center". Theology had to face this, and doing so was no easy task, but I believe it serves as a good model to show how faith can and must realize our natural realities. In retrospect, one could hardly realize why the Earth was so important -- for christian theology -- to be center? Seems archaic, does it not? And here I believe we also see how the natural laws can influence theology itself; and I see nothing wrong in this.
 
The real question is, how will Christianity -- with its covenantal focus -- deal with the discovery of life on other planets?  
 
Astronomy class hopefully serving me well....LOL
Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King.
Back to Top
Leonidas View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 4617
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2009 at 13:29
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

God is certainly not anthropomorphic in Islam. That is quite kufr
 
Nor in Christianity, excepting the Incarnation. While we do believe that God assumed human form, the Godhead is uncircumscribable.
 
I actually think Islam and Christianity are of the same conviction in this: that when the Scriptures speak of God smelling, angering, repenting, etc., they speak as if He were smelling, angering, repenting, etc. It is a sort of linguistic economy adapted to convey something about Him by means of analogy. It's making the best of an imperfect medium. Is that about your understanding, Omar?
 
-Akolouthos
Ako he is anthropomorphic and the ancients, the platonist, where right in their criticism. He made man in his image, he has feelings and rules we understand while he treated one tribe as if it was his pet project throughout the OT. The god head so to speak is compromised in his very descriptions and stories. You cannot define something even if 'uncircumscribable' that has no limits or by inference definition -  other than undefinable or unspeakable - using some linguistic economy myself.

The trinity is some way to mediate between the universal and human, but you cannot mediate two things that are essentially unlike. strictly speaking they are not, once you blur the boundaries you compromise the uncompromisable.Smile



Edited by Leonidas - 21-Feb-2009 at 13:29
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Location: Snowy-Highlands
Status: Offline
Points: 5725
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2009 at 01:21
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

Saying all religions aren't invented seems to me to be a very dodgy piece of ground to stand on to me.

Isn't that the Bahai's piece of ground?
Originally posted by Bey Bey wrote:

When one understands how mind-bogglingly huge and old the universe is and how new and insignificant we are in it, there is no way you can believe the fairy tales in Quran or Bible. Their incredible pettiness is suddenly revealed by the bright light of truth, and the mind breaks its shackles and goes free from such primitive superstition.

I see exactly the same evidence, but I interpret it in exactly the opposite way.
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

I remember one thing that helped me to realise how big the universe is, was just to scale our solar system down to a more conceiveable size.

I am not sure that the universes size is particularly important. Its the mystery that it contains, and the potential for discovery.
Just because something is big, it does not mean that it is more important than something that is small. Size is merely a scale, an obsticle, and an opportunity.

When I look out my window I look directly at the Brindabella mountain range, part of the Snowy-Highlands in SE Australia. I am looking at valleys that no human has ever been to, places where unprepared bush walkers have dissappeared without trace. For all I know there could be a completely ruined neolithic metropolis hidden beneath the trees within my eyesight and we'd have no idea about it.

If you look too far you miss what is in front of you, and if you look too close you miss what is far. Distance is only a matter of perspective, physical distance isn't as important as intellectual distance.
"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor
Back to Top
Akolouthos View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 24-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2096
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2009 at 01:31
Originally posted by Leonidas Leonidas wrote:

Ako he is anthropomorphic and the ancients, the platonist, where right in their criticism. He made man in his image, he has feelings and rules we understand while he treated one tribe as if it was his pet project throughout the OT. The god head so to speak is compromised in his very descriptions and stories. You cannot define something even if 'uncircumscribable' that has no limits or by inference definition -  other than undefinable or unspeakable - using some linguistic economy myself.

The trinity is some way to mediate between the universal and human, but you cannot mediate two things that are essentially unlike. strictly speaking they are not, once you blur the boundaries you compromise the uncompromisable.Smile
 
I guess I'm not sure precisely what distinction you are trying to draw; perhaps you could clarify? I suppose God is anthropomorphic in the sense that He is a non-human entity to which characteristics are applied by way of analogy, and perhaps the issue is that we were each considering two different definitions for the same word (you reading the term in my comment as the literary device, while I had considered the term in the sense of having human characteristics). I feel that the distinction was adequately drawn, above; Scripture speaks as if, according to the Fathers. Still, if you don't feel I was being clear enough, let me know. I'd never ask for a clarification without being willing to provide one in turn. Smile
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 22-Feb-2009 at 01:33
Back to Top
Northman View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
~ Scylding ~

Joined: 30-Aug-2004
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 4433
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2009 at 02:38

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

I remember one thing that helped me to realise how big the universe is, was just to scale our solar system down to a more conceiveable size.
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:


I am not sure that the universes size is particularly important. Its the mystery that it contains, and the potential for discovery.
Just because something is big, it does not mean that it is more important than something that is small. Size is merely a scale, an obsticle, and an opportunity........    .....................

If you look too far you miss what is in front of you, and if you look too close you miss what is far. Distance is only a matter of perspective, physical distance isn't as important as intellectual distance.
 
Perspective is essential to comprehend anything - physical or intellectual.
I once saw two good friends, a mouse and an elephant, crossing an old wooden bridge.
The bridge was squeaking and close to collapsing under the heavy weight.
 
Then the mouse said "WOW .... - listen how much noise the two of us can make together."
 
Of course, the mouse meant what he said - but I think his conception lacked a great deal -  lacking physical as well as intellectual perspective.
 
If you aren't willing to see yourself - physically and intellectually - as a tiny piece in a greater puzzle and striving to see the whole picture, you will never be able to comprehend, solve or see the whole image of the puzzle - not even the image of your own vicinity.   
 
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Location: Snowy-Highlands
Status: Offline
Points: 5725
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2009 at 03:44
Quote
If you aren't willing to see yourself - physically and intellectually - as a tiny piece in a greater puzzle and striving to see the whole picture, you will never be able to comprehend, solve or see the whole image of the puzzle - not even the image of your own vicinity.  

Yes, exactly.
Its not the size of the universe that renders of feeling of awe, its the realisation that there is so much that we don't know. We explain away or ignore that to which we are accustomed to without fully understanding it. Explaining the size of the universe works to many people as a shock, because it is not something which they have already decided upon a way to explain away or ignore. Once people become accustomed to the idea that the universe is for all we know endless, we will find another way to ignore it.

For example, have you ever consider it odd that there is a giant ball of fire in the sky? I mean if there were two everyone would be commenting. The fact that there is any sun is far more wondrous than the fact there is another one 78 billion light years away.

The realisation you get from the shock of distance you can get from almost anything you actually sit down and think about.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 22-Feb-2009 at 03:46
"O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give the pledge to this Prophet"
~ Heraclius, Roman Emperor
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 2396
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2009 at 04:19

Quote Once people become accustomed to the idea that the universe is for all we know endless, we will find another way to ignore it.

In most models it isn't endless. It has finite boundaries at any given point in time. The law of conservation of energy demands it, and the expansion of the universe confirms it. However, because space-time is only a side-effect of light and matter, it is not expanding into an empty space, it is space and it's expanding space itself.

Quote For example, have you ever consider it odd that there is a giant ball of fire in the sky?

No, not really. How could it be any other way? Nothing living can survive in deep space, so I would never have occurred there. Unless there is life that has evolved using other heat energies like, say, geothermal processes inside dark bodies (asteroids etc) far outside of solar systems.



Edited by edgewaters - 22-Feb-2009 at 04:22
Back to Top
Goocheslamb View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 16-Feb-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goocheslamb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2009 at 05:43
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Quote
If you aren't willing to see yourself - physically and intellectually - as a tiny piece in a greater puzzle and striving to see the whole picture, you will never be able to comprehend, solve or see the whole image of the puzzle - not even the image of your own vicinity.  

Yes, exactly.
Its not the size of the universe that renders of feeling of awe, its the realisation that there is so much that we don't know. We explain away or ignore that to which we are accustomed to without fully understanding it. Explaining the size of the universe works to many people as a shock, because it is not something which they have already decided upon a way to explain away or ignore. Once people become accustomed to the idea that the universe is for all we know endless, we will find another way to ignore it.

For example, have you ever consider it odd that there is a giant ball of fire in the sky? I mean if there were two everyone would be commenting. The fact that there is any sun is far more wondrous than the fact there is another one 78 billion light years away.

The realisation you get from the shock of distance you can get from almost anything you actually sit down and think about.
 
size matters because it explains how small we are. For example ancient people thought that the earth was the center of universe
 
i agree however that even our earth or sun is such a big mystery. where has every thing come from?
Back to Top
Leonidas View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 4617
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2009 at 07:40
Ako, i lost a good post.. either way it would led to a theological debate, maybe its best not for this thread

Edited by Leonidas - 22-Feb-2009 at 07:41
Back to Top
Goocheslamb View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 16-Feb-2009
Status: Offline
Points: 40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Goocheslamb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2009 at 16:24
also one really important thing about religions. abrahmic faiths believe in Satan. Jews and christians beleive in satan as a fallen angel and islam says satan is a jinn. Think about this fact for a moment. While the universe is so huge. why do you religious folks think that god will be challnged and rebel by a small creature called satan, surely God must be bigger then the universe right?
 
what is the significance of Satan compared to this universe?
 
 
Back to Top
Akolouthos View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 24-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2096
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2009 at 18:28
Originally posted by Leonidas Leonidas wrote:

Ako, i lost a good post.. either way it would led to a theological debate, maybe its best not for this thread
 
Sorry about the post, Leo; I hate it when that happens.
 
Go ahead and pm me your thoughts. I'd definitely love to discuss the issue with you. Until then, I'm going to go right on assuming that we are actually saying the same thing with different sets of words. Wink
 
-Akolouthos
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.