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Forum LockedThe Universe

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Goocheslamb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Universe
    Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 02:07
Universe is so big that it is mind boogling, just watch this video, the second half of the video is much better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcBV-cXVWFw
 
my question to you guys is do humans really matter? I mean we are so small in the Universe that our worth is almost nothing. what is the universe? its a mystery that can probably never be solved
 
However, after watching this video, religion sounds like a man made thing, i mean why would god come down to meet Moses when humans and earth are almost nothing compared with this universe.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 02:34
Perhaps you don't understand the theology of "God" and God's place in the Universe. God in most theology is described as all-encompassing and infinite, thus, he would never have had to "come down" anywhere to communicate.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Goocheslamb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 02:50
^ but doesn't the story of moses tell that god came down to mt sinai?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 02:56
Originally posted by es_bih

Perhaps you don't understand the theology of "God" and God's place in the Universe. God in most theology is described as all-encompassing and infinite, thus, he would never have had to "come down" anywhere to communicate.

Well ... I don't know about Islam but technically speaking God is anthropomorphic in most forms of Judeo-Christianity. This was one of the key criticisms the Greco-Romans had of Judeo-Christianity, as they had a concept of a universal creator called the "Demiurge" but it was as you describe.



Edited by edgewaters - 18-Feb-2009 at 02:58
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 06:46
God is certainly not anthropomorphic in Islam. That is quite kufr
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 09:55
It's not the anthropomorphism is the anthtropocentrism of the religion(s) that raises some problems.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 10:07
We don't grasp the Universe and yes, humans don't "matter". Nothing matters, objectively speaking.

I don't see how Moses enters into this, but what's more likely; Moses inscribing the tablets himself and claiming God did it, or God coming down to carve out the ten commandments with divine laser rays?
Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum,
þeod-cyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 20:14
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

God is certainly not anthropomorphic in Islam. That is quite kufr
 
Nor in Christianity, excepting the Incarnation. While we do believe that God assumed human form, the Godhead is uncircumscribable.
 
I actually think Islam and Christianity are of the same conviction in this: that when the Scriptures speak of God smelling, angering, repenting, etc., they speak as if He were smelling, angering, repenting, etc. It is a sort of linguistic economy adapted to convey something about Him by means of analogy. It's making the best of an imperfect medium. Is that about your understanding, Omar?
 
-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 20:25
Originally posted by es_bih

Perhaps you don't understand the theology of "God" and God's place in the Universe. God in most theology is described as all-encompassing and infinite, thus, he would never have had to "come down" anywhere to communicate.


I think this is what many Christians believe - God took the form of a man in Jesus the Christ.

I heard a story about a man of a boy who were walking and stopped to look at some ants. In a nut shell the man told his son that the only way they could communicate with the ants was to become an ant. Many Christians believe God took human form in Christ for this reason; so He could communicate and relate to man's problems.

Both views are valid are far as I am concerned but subjective. This is why I avoid organized religion.

The universe is beyond all of us and last night I was looking at the many stars in the desert night sky and wondered if there was life out there and other civilizations. I walked up to the Neighbors fence and their horse joined me. I looked at Mr. Ed and said, look at all those stars and yet your intellect cannot even comprehend them. I realized my understanding of what is really out there is not far above this horse.

I once had a dream in which I soared through the roof of my house and slowly up into the upper atmosphere. Soon I began to see stars and I remember saying to myself, "I want to see God." Suddenly, I felt my body going faster like I was going into hyper drive. I saw this huge spiral galaxy in front of me and I panicked and suddenly awoke. I wish I could redo this tour of the universe. I know it was a dream but it seemed so real.


Edited by eaglecap - 18-Feb-2009 at 20:39
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Goocheslamb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 23:52

universe is a really big mystery. as the video says most of us dont know and care about these things, all we have to look up in the sky to wonder these things. unfortunatly 90% of us dont care.

the image that hubble deep field took is about 78 billion light years away. Humans are not made to even imagine such big numbers
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 00:20
Yeah, our universe is incomprehensively big. There are probably are, have been or will be millions of other civilisations, none of which we will ever meet. I'm a little amazed when someone posts a vid, but the rest of the time I'm pretty indifferent. However my local supermarket sells over 100 kinds of beer, I'm gobsmacked
 
Then again we can make up petty gods and religions like Islam or Christianity which are dwarfed by the scale of the universe. However which is more spectacular? The feat of imagination to invent a religion or the failure to understand the universe?
 
 
 
 


Edited by Paul - 19-Feb-2009 at 00:46
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 03:44
Originally posted by eaglecap

I heard a story about a man of a boy who were walking and stopped to look at some ants. In a nut shell the man told his son that the only way they could communicate with the ants was to become an ant. Many Christians believe God took human form in Christ for this reason; so He could communicate and relate to man's problems.

Both views are valid are far as I am concerned but subjective. This is why I avoid organized religion.
 
I think you might want to re-examine all that this particular relationship entails if you believe it justifies avoiding what you call "organized religion". Of course I may misunderstand what you mean by organized religion...
 
-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Goocheslamb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 04:09
Humans and earth are not special at all compared to this universe. There are mostly likley billions of earth like planets out there. Infact just last year they detected an earth like planet near some near star.


Edited by Goocheslamb - 19-Feb-2009 at 04:10
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Goocheslamb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 04:21


Edited by Goocheslamb - 19-Feb-2009 at 04:21
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Goocheslamb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 04:22
^ this is the image of hubble ultra deep field, all these galaxies are about 78 billion light years away
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 04:30
Originally posted by Cezar

It's not the anthropomorphism is the anthtropocentrism of the religion(s) that raises some problems.

Your spot on.
The thing is there is nothing in religion (at least Islam) that should lead to anthropocentrism, in fact I think that it should be the opposite, that we are one part of a huge system in which our power and importance is severly limited. Nevertheless there are considerable number of muslims out there who still think that the world centres around humans (or even their ethnic group, or themselves).

There is a very similar thing in "evolution". There is nothing in the scientific theory that implies anthropocentrism, quite the opposite in fact, yet believers* in evolution still manage to place humans (or their ethnic group) at the highest pinnicle of evolution.

There seems to be predisposition to x-centrism amoung humans.



*As opposed to people who merely think its correct. People who put blind religious faith in the theory, and in science.

I actually think Islam and Christianity are of the same conviction in this: that when the Scriptures speak of God smelling, angering, repenting, etc., they speak as if He were smelling, angering, repenting, etc. It is a sort of linguistic economy adapted to convey something about Him by means of analogy. It's making the best of an imperfect medium. Is that about your understanding, Omar?

That's exactly right.
Many people don't understand this I think, they are still thinking in terms of the Greek god with the big beard in the sky, Monty Python style. Sometimes I think that people who actually understand religion are only a small proportion of any population; and those who do, regardless of which religion they are coming from, all seem to reach a remarkably similar position.

I know next to nothing about Aboriginal religion, but I do know that numerous people when writing about why 19th century Afghans usually settled with Aboriginal communities, or modern Aboriginal coversions to Islam, mention "similar beliefs" as a partial cause. Now as most of these writers come from Christian backgrounds it makes me wonder how exactly the Aboriginal religions, isolated from the rest of the world until at least 1600, manage to be more similar to Islam than Christianity - a sister faith from the ME.
Originally posted by eaglecap

This is why I avoid organized religion.

I can assure you no-one is more disorganised than us.
Originally posted by Paul

The feat of imagination to invent a religion or the failure to understand the universe?

That's an interesting sentence if you consider that thinking religion is invented is a failure to understand the universe.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 04:42
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

That's exactly right.
Many people don't understand this I think, they are still thinking in terms of the Greek god with the big beard in the sky, Monty Python style. Sometimes I think that people who actually understand religion are only a small proportion of any population; and those who do, regardless of which religion they are coming from, all seem to reach a remarkably similar position.
 
I think you are spot on, especially within the Abrahamic traditions. If people were more familiar with it, it would sure make discussing religion easier, eh? Smile
 
I know next to nothing about Aboriginal religion, but I do know that numerous people when writing about why 19th century Afghans usually settled with Aboriginal communities, or modern Aboriginal coversions to Islam, mention "similar beliefs" as a partial cause. Now as most of these writers come from Christian backgrounds it makes me wonder how exactly the Aboriginal religions, isolated from the rest of the world until at least 1600, manage to be more similar to Islam than Christianity - a sister faith from the ME.
 
That's interesting; I'd never heard that before. Would these be Aborigines in Australia, or some other area?
 
We have an analogous situation in Alaska, where the tribal shamans became more active, and had visions of men from the west beginning around 50 years before the arrival of Russian missionaries.
 
-Akolouthos
 
EDIT: I just thought I'd mention that I used the phrase "spot on" before I noticed you had used it as well; I only read the part of your post that dealt with my earlier post. Great minds think alike, eh? LOL


Edited by Akolouthos - 19-Feb-2009 at 04:44
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 12:21
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

That's an interesting sentence if you consider that thinking religion is invented is a failure to understand the universe.
 
The only wat this observation works is if you are saying all religions are not invented, if you change the all to some or one your argument logically collapses.
 
Saying all religions aren't invented seems to me to be a very dodgy piece of ground to stand on to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 12:27
However, after watching this video, religion sounds like a man made thing, i mean why would god come down to meet Moses when humans and earth are almost nothing compared with this universe.
I think this was the main reason behind my decision to become an atheist at the tender age of 12-13. When one understands how mind-bogglingly huge and old the universe is and how new and insignificant we are in it, there is no way you can believe the fairy tales in Quran or Bible. Their incredible pettiness is suddenly revealed by the bright light of truth, and the mind breaks its shackles and goes free from such primitive superstition. 

I think creationist nuts should be more worried about cosmology than evolution. Nothing destroys the myths quite like an understanding of modern cosmology.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 13:26
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

I think this was the main reason behind my decision to become an atheist at the tender age of 12-13. When one understands how mind-bogglingly huge and old the universe is and how new and insignificant we are in it, there is no way you can believe the fairy tales in Quran or Bible. Their incredible pettiness is suddenly revealed by the bright light of truth, and the mind breaks its shackles and goes free from such primitive superstition. 


It's good to see we're in perfect agreement for once. LOL

No matter how I twist and turn it, I can't see religious faith as a sign of anything other than lack of comprehension, peer pressure or fear of what lies beyond, possibly all three combined.
Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum,
þeod-cyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
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