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Forum LockedThe Top 100 Leaders in History

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 06:55
Originally posted by Penelope Penelope wrote:

Originally posted by Justinian Justinian wrote:

Phillip II of Macedon certainly comes to mind
 
 
Yes, after ascending the throne, he found his kingdom virtually on the brink of collapse, and his neighbours, hovering like vultures poised to put an end to its existence. Not to mention the internal strife from pretenders who wanted to usurp the throne for themselves as well. Philioppos, at the tender age of 21, demonstrated his abilities, not only as a competent ruler, but as a skillful diplomat, many even consider him to have been one of the most skillful diplomats in history. In a little more than a year, he had crushed all pretenders, firmly establishing himself on the throne, pushed back the Paonians, and went on to bribe the kings of Illyria and Thrace in exchange for peace, so as to "buy" enough time to continue to implement his reforms, and reorganize the kingdom.
Totally agree, he often is overshadowed because of who his son is, but he was a gifted individual, no doubts there.  His manipulation/take over of the greeks is just amazing to read about. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 17:14
I'm working on a numerical rating system to rank the leaders; so far it seems to be working well.  I have put together a list that includes a good portion of the significant nations, though I haven't rated all of the different leaders.  Here is a listing of the leaders I have collected so far, sorted by nation:

Name Country
Ahmad Shah Durrani Afgan
Sargon Akkad
Mohammed Arabs
Tiglath-Pileser III Assyria
Tiglath-Pileser I Assyria
Shamshi-Adad I Assyria
Shalmaneser I Assyria
Hammurabi Babylon
Nebuchadrezzar II Babylon
Nabopolassar Babylon
Philip the Good Burgundy
Hannibal Barca Carthage
Hamilcar Barca Carthage
Thutmose III Egypt
Menes/Narmur Egypt
Imhotep Egypt
Djoser Egypt
Senusret I Egypt
Ramesses II Egypt
Ptolemy I Soter Egypt
Mentuhotep II Egypt
Hatshepsut Egypt
Amenhotep III Egypt
Ahmose I Egypt
Kutik-Inshushinak Elam
Queen Elizabeth I England
Winston Churchill England
King Alfred the Great England
Sir Francis Drake England
Robert Clive England
Oliver Cromwell England
John Churchill, Duke of Marlborough England
William Pitt the Elder England
Edward III England
Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington  England
Charlemagne France
Philip Augustus France
Louis XIV France
Cardinal Richelieu France
Jean d'Arc France
Charles VII  France
Cardinal Mazarin France
Napoleon France
Charles de Gaulle France
Solon Greece
Epaminondas Greece
Suppiluliuma I Hittite
Chandragupta Maurya India
Ashoka the Great India
Moses Israel
David Israel
Joshua Israel
Moshe Dayan Israel
Judas Maccabeus Israel
David Ben-Gurion Israel
Solomon Israel
Gudea Lagash
Alyattes II Lydia
Philip II Macedonia
Alexander the Great Macedonia
Cyaxares Media
Ghengis Khan Mongols
Piye Nubia
Mithridates I Parthia
Cyrus the Great Persia
Harpagus Persia
Darius I Persia
Cambyses II Persia
Nadir Shah Persia
Ismail I Persia
Abbas I Persia
Augustus Caesar Rome
Scipio Africanus Rome
Julius Caesar Rome
Trajan Rome
Mark Antony Rome
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Rome
Gaius Marius Rome
Constantine I Rome
Peter the Great Russia
Ivan I Russia
Catherine the Great Russia
Shapur II Sassanid
Khosrau I Sassanid
Seleucus I Nicator Seleucid
George Washington United States
Abraham Lincoln United States
James Madison United States
Thomas Jefferson United States
Benjamin Franklin United States
Franklin Roosevelt United States
Theodore Roosevelt United States
Dwight D. Eisenhower United States
Andrew Jackson United States
Douglas MacArthur United States
Ronald Reagan United States
Ur-Nammu Ur


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 17:18
Obviously, I have many, many nations/peoples to go and not all of those above are comprehensive.  I was just starting in the ancient times and preparing to work forward.  Anyway, the top 40 from just those nations looks like this, using the numerical method:

Rank Name Country
1 Ghengis Khan Mongols
2 Mohammed Arabs
3 George Washington United States
4 Sargon Akkad
5 Cyrus the Great Persia
6 Queen Elizabeth I England
7 Augustus Caesar Rome
8 Charlemagne France
9 Philip II Macedonia
10 Philip Augustus France
11 Winston Churchill England
12 Peter the Great Russia
13 Louis XIV France
14 King Alfred the Great England
15 Moses Israel
16 Ivan I Russia
17 Cardinal Richelieu France
18 Hammurabi Babylon
19 David Israel
20 Sir Francis Drake England
21 Philip the Good Burgundy
22 Scipio Africanus Rome
23 Solon Greece
24 Chandragupta Maurya India
25 Thutmose III Egypt
26 Abraham Lincoln United States
27 Epaminondas Greece
28 James Madison United States
29 Jean d'Arc France
30 Charles VII  France
31 Robert Clive England
32 Oliver Cromwell England
33 John Churchill, Duke of Marlborough England
34 Menes/Narmur Egypt
35 Julius Caesar Rome
36 William Pitt the Elder England
37 Joshua Israel
38 Edward III England
39 Thomas Jefferson United States
40 Benjamin Franklin United States



Edited by DSMyers1 - 08-Mar-2008 at 17:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 17:35
What is the criteria which makes a leader great of not? Also how did you judge what a leader is, Moshe Dayan was not a leader of Israel he was involved in the millitary. Maccabeus and Joshua are Jewish heroes, not necessarilly "leaders", there are similar examples of national heroes for many nations. William Pitt was sucessful however, I don't see how he can be regarded one of the top 100 leaders in history. Sir Francis Drake was answerable to Queen Elizabeth, in what sense was he a leader?
 
Is it just their martial tendencies? or also their cultural impact, level of justic and law, patronage of the arts, architectural projects...


Edited by Bulldog - 08-Mar-2008 at 17:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 18:07
No Gandi? Lenin? Suleyman the Magnificent?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 18:26
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

No Gandi? Lenin? Suleyman the Magnificent?
 
 


You haven't read this thread, Bulldog...

In response to your previous post, a leader can be in any position, as long as they strengthen their nation by their actions.  The evaluation criteria has been discussed at length on the first page or two--essentially, one looks at the nation before and after the leader's life/leadership time (that's about 75%) and then you look at what heights the leader led the nation to in his life (that's about 25%).

As clearly stated in my last two posts, I haven't even gotten to half of the nations of note in collecting leaders yet...thus the absences you mention.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 20:04
Sorry me and my big mouth Embarrassed
      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 00:09
Based on your ranking where is Alexander the Great?  I would think he would be at the top for sure.  I also think Louis XI should be considered.  He was really the one to build the foundations for modern france:   recover from the Hundred years war, foreign policy etc. etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 01:34
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 With respect to the best American president, I admire Jefferson and Roosevelt, and I dissagree with the case of Lincoln. That was a very bloody war that perhaps a more skillful President could have avoided or stopped.
 
 
I disagree with your opinion pinguin. A more skillful politican or not being able too avoid the war, i rather extremely doubt it! Lincoln's election was the spark that finally lit the flames of the Civil War, it was a long time in coming! The only way he probably could have avoided the war, was probably by putting a bullet in his brain shortly after he took office? Even then quite a few wouldn't be appeased with that gesture!
 
Quote
In Amerindian figures, my favorite from the U.S. is Crazy horse, that got a monument bigger than any president Wink
 
 
I'm rather partial too Quanah Parker myself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 02:04
Originally posted by Justinian Justinian wrote:

Based on your ranking where is Alexander the Great?  I would think he would be at the top for sure.  I also think Louis XI should be considered.  He was really the one to build the foundations for modern france:   recover from the Hundred years war, foreign policy etc. etc.


Alexander took a Significant Power (Macedonia) to The Greatest Power in the World.  That's not quite as big a step as his father took (Nobody to Great Power) and his work didn't last past his death.  Since a large part of my decision is based on the trajectory of the nation, he loses some points for its short duration.

I will look into Louis XI.  I'm not an expert on French Monarchs...

Oh--and you can't accuse me of bias against Alexander--he's number 1 on the Top 100 Generals thread Tongue


Edited by DSMyers1 - 09-Mar-2008 at 02:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 02:16
For anyone who wants to see or critique my numerical formula for analyzing the top leaders, here is the formula in PDF:

Top 100 Leaders Formula

It was my endeavor to create an objective method for looking at the top leaders, and I customized it to get results I felt comfortable with.

In case you're wondering how I would end up with such a convoluted formula--I'm an engineer.  It's my job.  Smile


Edited by DSMyers1 - 09-Mar-2008 at 02:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 18:44

DsMyers1, i think that placing Philip II in the top 10 was very fair and accurate, and i also agree that Alexander The Great should not be on the list. He may have been the greatest conqueror, but he wasnt the greatest of administrators. He simply inherited Macedonia, a nation that Philip had shaped and molded into the most powerful nation on earth. So on this rare occasion in forum history, it is the Father who will shine, not the son.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 18:57
Well said Penelope! In any case, the Persian empire was in shamles by the time that Alexander III "the great" marched across it, so was Greece - Xenophon's "the Persian expedition" is testimony to this. Moreover, the Macedonian phalanx had been formed by Philip II, but I must point out here that it's often been said that Alexander never won one of his battles with his phalanx, it was mainly his cavalry and other skirmishers who dealt the killer blow, so we can't take Philip II's military ingeunity into the question - I would mainly put his ability to internal secure Macedon as his key trait.
 
What would you say about Charles V? By all accounts, his ability to rule was very limited, but despite opposition he managed to defeat the Munster rebels at Frankhausen, the French and their allies at Pavia, and the Schmakaldic league at Muhlburg. Moreover, he manged to keep this now crumbling empire on it's toes for the Hapsburg-Valois wars, and successfully managed to influence the pope enough to get him to condemn the French for
their alliance with the Ottoman empire (when in actuallity, Clement VII was pleased of any assistance the French could give to prevent Italy being overrun by Hapsburg client states)
and preventing Henry VIII to divorce from Katherine of Aragon. I know that this was due to the sack of Rome, which he didn't actually engineer himself, but he did manage to turn the situation to his advantage. It seems he just suffered from very bad luck more than anything - he managed to do so much for this crumbling state, which is ironic considering that the Haspburg sucession made him one of the most powerful rulers that Europe had ever seen.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tore The Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 19:18
Axel Oxenstierna  This man is the major factor to Swedish Empire in 1600 cetury , by people forgotten , by historians , a national hero.
 
 
Skilled diplomat and warrior , Lord High chancelor to Gustavius  Adolphus II and Queen Christina.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 20:47
Originally posted by DSMyers1 DSMyers1 wrote:

Obviously, I have many, many nations/peoples to go and not all of those above are comprehensive.  I was just starting in the ancient times and preparing to work forward.  Anyway, the top 40 from just those nations looks like this, using the numerical method:

Rank Name Country
1 Ghengis Khan Mongols
2 Mohammed Arabs
3 George Washington United States
4 Sargon Akkad
5 Cyrus the Great Persia
6 Queen Elizabeth I England
7 Augustus Caesar Rome
8 Charlemagne France
9 Philip II Macedonia
10 Philip Augustus France
11 Winston Churchill England
12 Peter the Great Russia
13 Louis XIV France
14 King Alfred the Great England
15 Moses Israel
16 Ivan I Russia
17 Cardinal Richelieu France
18 Hammurabi Babylon
19 David Israel
20 Sir Francis Drake England
21 Philip the Good Burgundy
22 Scipio Africanus Rome
23 Solon Greece
24 Chandragupta Maurya India
25 Thutmose III Egypt
26 Abraham Lincoln United States
27 Epaminondas Greece
28 James Madison United States
29 Jean d'Arc France
30 Charles VII  France
31 Robert Clive England
32 Oliver Cromwell England
33 John Churchill, Duke of Marlborough England
34 Menes/Narmur Egypt
35 Julius Caesar Rome
36 William Pitt the Elder England
37 Joshua Israel
38 Edward III England
39 Thomas Jefferson United States
40 Benjamin Franklin United States

 
I am afraid, a ranking that includes Francis Drake and  Chandragupta Maurya (who is?) but that purposely excludes Jesus, Saint Paul, Columbus, Queen Isabel of Spain and all Amerindian leaders is, in my oppinion, not only extremelly biassed but worthless Ouch
 
With respect to Latin Americans outside rankings, I don't get concerned at all. We are accustommed to be ignored, always Wink
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 09-Mar-2008 at 20:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2008 at 01:01
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
With respect to Latin Americans outside rankings, I don't get concerned at all. We are accustommed to be ignored, always Wink
 
 
Latin who...?  Do they even exist?
 
( ***cough, cough***  Ahem...)  Big%20smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2008 at 11:27
Yes, yes Panther, Pinguin.  I know.  As I've said, that list of 40 is of less than half of the nations in history.  I was starting with the nations I'd already done.  I haven't worked on those you mentioned, yet, Pinguin.  Though, as I've mentioned, I'm not going to put Jesus on the list as he was not the leader of a single nation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2008 at 02:29
Originally posted by DSMyers1 DSMyers1 wrote:

Originally posted by Justinian Justinian wrote:

Based on your ranking where is Alexander the Great?  I would think he would be at the top for sure.  I also think Louis XI should be considered.  He was really the one to build the foundations for modern france:   recover from the Hundred years war, foreign policy etc. etc.


Alexander took a Significant Power (Macedonia) to The Greatest Power in the World.  That's not quite as big a step as his father took (Nobody to Great Power) and his work didn't last past his death.  Since a large part of my decision is based on the trajectory of the nation, he loses some points for its short duration.

I will look into Louis XI.  I'm not an expert on French Monarchs...

Oh--and you can't accuse me of bias against Alexander--he's number 1 on the Top 100 Generals thread Tongue
Okay, I see where you're coming from.  I'd point out the Macedonian successor states lasted for hundreds of years; and were formed from Alexander's conquests, without him they don't exist.  But I'll leave it at that, and you're right I can't complain about number 1 on the top 100 generals thread.Tongue 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2008 at 11:33
Any body who wants to help out with the quantifying of leaders, feel free to do so.  Read the Formula PDF I put together a few posts back.  Here is an example leader with the numbers included:

Name Country Before After Duration High Point Impact Opposition Rating
Ghengis Khan Mongols 0 5 4 5 4 4 64.0

The idea is that this is a fairly objective approach, and thus the leaders from many eras can be compared.  Copied from the Formula Sheet, here are what the numerical ratings correspond to:

Levels

Power/Trajectory

Duration (at trajectory after leader or 1 worse)

0

Downward, Collapsing, Non-existent (Mongol Tribes @ 1000AD)

Collapses at Death (Alexander the Great)

1

Minor State or Deteriorating Larger (Israel before conquest of Canaan)

Collapses within 25 years (Philip the Good)

2

Medium State w/o much Power (France before Jean d'Arc)

Collapses within 50 years (Sargon of Akkad?)

3

Significant Power (US after Washington)

Collapses within 100 years (Winston Churchill—present)

4

Great Power (England before Pitt and Wellington)

Collapses within 200 years (Louis XIV)

5

Greatest in World (Persia after Cyrus)

200+ (George Washington)


Levels

Impact of Leader

Opposition Caliber

0

0% It really wasn't them (Means rating of 0)

Opposition? (Why on list?)

1

20% They helped (Insignificant leader—maybe Henry Knox)

Fragmentary (Not sure of an example)

2

40% A significant leader (Thomas Jefferson)

Small Powers (Theodore Roosevelt)

3

60% Most important in change (Charles VII of France)

Significant Powers (Abraham Lincoln)

4

80% Dominant leader, with a little help (Genghis Khan)

Great Powers (Cardinal Richelieu)

5

100% Him and him alone (Philip II of Macedon)

Greatest Power/Great Coalition (Queen Elizabeth I)



I tried to give examples of who would be rated at each number for each of the 4 scales of 0 to 5, but I'm not sure I got them all right--I did them off the top of my head.

Those ratings are then plugged into the formula to give an overall rating that goes from 0 to 100.  I suspect Genghis Khan's 64 may be hard to beat, though Mohammed was at 62 and I may tweak the values or the formula some time.  Third place thus far was George Washington at 46, then Sargon at 44 and Cyrus at 43.


I would REALLY appreciate people picking a nation and rating its leaders based on that criteria above, like the example for Ghengis Khan!

I am pretty busy and only have time to work on this much on the weekends.  This shouldn't be that hard to do...  If you don't want to calculate the overall rating formula, just give the values in the various categories to me and I'll plug them into my spreadsheet.

A few random examples:
Robert Clive
England
3
4
5
4
5
3
24.9

Arthur Wellesley, Duke of Wellington 
England
4
5
4
5
3
5
17.8

Have fun!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2008 at 11:47
Von Ranke would be happy. Seems we are doing things very empirically...

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