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    Posted: 03-Dec-2005 at 20:40


THE SANDZAK
serbia and montenegro
E V E R Y O N E ' S  B O R D E R L A N D

The Sandzak is a region of southwest Serbia and Montenegro with strong historical and cultural ties to Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Ottoman Empire, and Islam.

Originally a Serbian region called Raska, the residents of this area converted to Islam in the 16th Century and merged with Bosnia and Herzegovina. Although both sides mutually viewed the other as a distinct and separate people, Bosnia and Herzegovina had a measure of control over the Sandzak until the Ottomans awarded the 6 Sandzak districts to Serbia and Montenegro when they were granted autonomy from the Empire.

Today the Sandzak is culturally and politically isolated from the rest of Serbia and Montenegro but, because it borders the Republika Srpska region of Bosnia and Herzegovina, it has been isolated from authorities in Sarajevo as well. Residents of the Sandzak enjoy an unofficial level of autonomy that appears to be keeping the region relative 'properous' and stable.

An ethnic map of the counties of the Sandzak. The percentages shown are the ratio of Muslims from the population as a whole:





The largest and most important city in the Sandzak is its regional capital, Novi Pazar (New Baazar). It has been the most powerful, influential city in the region since the Ottoman Empire.




Sjenica is a popular tourist destination for geriatric Muslims from throughout the Balkans.




Tutin.




Rozaje
is one Sandzak city where most residents can actually trace their heritage back to Bosnia and Herzegovina.




Plav-Gusinje is one of the most prosperous settlements in the Sandzak. On the beautiful Blue Lake of northern Montenegro, it is famous for its resorts and summer activities.




Berane.




Bijelo Polje.




Prijepolje.




Pljevlja
is one of the oldest cities in the Balkans, dating back more than 5,000 years.




Priboj.




Nova Varos.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 00:44
what are the chances of Sandzak rejoining bosna.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 01:05
None. Politicians there brought it up and the people held protests.

"Our lives are in your hands, don't squeeze so tight" on signs, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 01:51
Originally posted by Mila Mila wrote:

None. Politicians there brought it up and the people held protests.

"Our lives are in your hands, don't squeeze so tight" on signs, etc.


Might be possible
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 01:55
I'd doubt it, and it's not something I believe needs to happen.

First of all - all the fuss Serbs make over Kosovo "Our heartland", blah blah blah - imagine if Sandzak, which actually IS all the things they claim Kosovo is, tries to leave? They'd never allow it.

Secondly these Muslims are not from Bosnia and Herzegovina. They are the descendants of the inhabitants of the Sandzak. Them joining us would be as weird as the Caucasus remaining a part of Russia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 02:13
Originally posted by Mila Mila wrote:

I'd doubt it, and it's not something I believe needs to happen.

First of all - all the fuss Serbs make over Kosovo "Our heartland", blah blah blah - imagine if Sandzak, which actually IS all the things they claim Kosovo is, tries to leave? They'd never allow it.

Secondly these Muslims are not from Bosnia and Herzegovina. They are the descendants of the inhabitants of the Sandzak. Them joining us would be as weird as the Caucasus remaining a part of Russia.


yeah i know.  they used to be a part of bosnia though.  but the kosovo issue is hilarious.  there is no possibility of kosovo ever rejoining serbia its gaining indpendence sooner or later.  its just impossible for kosovars to be treated equally in a serbian kosovo.  too much nationalism still present.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 03:08
Well, it's going to be a painful situation for many people whichever way it goes.

I just hope if independence is granted that the Kosovar Serbs don't listen to the nationalists and flee. You just know the radical leaders will push for them to be re-settled in the Sandzak. Or they'll push them aside to live in poverty for the film crews like they did with all the Serbs that left areas awarded to the Federation after the war.

I hope if the Albanians get independence that this is enough for the people who are standing behind the nationalists to back away from people that extreme.

Who knows.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2005 at 09:36
Originally posted by Mila Mila wrote:

Well, it's going to be a painful situation for many people whichever way it goes.

I just hope if independence is granted that the Kosovar Serbs don't listen to the nationalists and flee. You just know the radical leaders will push for them to be re-settled in the Sandzak. Or they'll push them aside to live in poverty for the film crews like they did with all the Serbs that left areas awarded to the Federation after the war.

I hope if the Albanians get independence that this is enough for the people who are standing behind the nationalists to back away from people that extreme.

Who knows.


It's a messed up sitatuion.  They do need to settle these things before it happens.  And get rid of leaders thinking about a "greater Albania."  Kosovo is not albanian - my best friend is a kosovar and he says the same . He's a Kosovar he thinks it should gain independence not join with albania.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Chargemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2006 at 15:41

This is one more ethnic map of Sandzak:

Bosnjaks or Serbs-Muslims

This is the source site: www.sandzak.com

What is your opinion Mila, are the sandzak-muslims bosnjaks or they are serbs?

The opinion of the bosnjaks for their ethnic roots is very interesting for me.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2006 at 17:24
That ethnic map is absolutely horrible, Charge - though I'm not surprised, given who produced.

Berane District, for example, is shown to have a fully Montenegrin population when in fact only 22.70 per cent of the district's people are Montenegrin. 27.32 per cent are Muslim (22 per cent of those declare themselves Bosniaks). They cut out the Plav-Gusinje district completely...

It seems to me they must be adding together the Serbian, Montenegrin, and "Muslim by Nationality" populations to form a majority for either "Montenegrins" or "Serbs" depending on which side of the border the district is in. The only districts colored 'Muslim' or 'Albanian' are districts where a majority of the population declares themselves Bosniak or Albanian, as opposed to "Muslim by Nationality". And the "No ethnic majority present" districts are a joke. Screen a map of Serbian monasteries in the Sandzak over this map and see if you notice anything funny. Kind of cute there's no majority anywhere there's a church.

To answer your question...

I think Sandzak Muslims are about as Bosniak as Orthodox Christians in Bosnia are Serbian.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Chargemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2006 at 16:33

For the first time i searched with Google for "sandzak", because this topic is named "The Sandzak". And the first map in Google was the map in my previous post. But then i tried to search "sanjak" and i have found your ethnic map in www.sanjak.org. Also i have found the information about Berane district here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandzak, and you are right about the percents.

But i think it`s strangely that in the same page is shown also the wrong map...  This map is about 1981 year and in the same time the demographic statistics are about 2002-2003 year. 20 years are not a little difference. After i saw that, i uploaded the right map. Now if you go in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandzak you will see that this map is there too.

But in Wikipedia i have found one other map of the distribution of the muslims in Serbia and in that map have a problem. I have no time now and i will post about this thing later...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2006 at 16:45
Well Sanjak.org is just as bad but for the other side.

When you're dealing with things in the Balkans it's best to check both sides, average them out, and take that as being closest to the truth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Chargemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2006 at 04:17
I am not so good with the english language, and because of that sometimes some parts of your words sounds to me little strangely. But no problem, i`ll learn the english language better.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Chargemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2006 at 07:48

Quote When you're dealing with things in the Balkans it's best to check both sides, average them out, and take that as being closest to the truth.

This sounds good, but if you think that always it's best to check both sides, and to average them out, it seems to me that maybe for you only the bosniak(or only the serbian or croatian) point of view is not enough for the revealing of the truth. Is this right, or not ? If this is right, what is your point of view about the future of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

And i think, that i must make one explanation: in principle i dont support the serbs in nothing, because Serbia is guilty for a lot of disasters, and catastrophies and sorrow-events who was befall over the bulgarian people in the our historical past.

In principle i prefer to be just, to be fair or to be equitable/impartial, always when this is possible.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Chargemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2006 at 09:18

Look at this map:

This map shows where in today`s Yugoslavia are living bosniaks. For larger version follow this link: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/a/a1/SCG_Verbreitun g_Muslime_Sandzak.png

In this instance, i dont care about the information for Sandzak himself. I can say, that the district Gora, who is in the southern part of Kossovo, is not populated/unhabited with bosniaks. The native muslims call themselves "gorani/goranci", and these muslims are actually bulgarians. One part of them have a relatives in Bulgaria. Their language is very very similar to this language, who is spoken by the  today`s "macedonians". But today`s macedonians are in fact bulgarians. Serbia is guilty for the creation of the today`s "macedonian" people.

Do you have some opinion about the "gorani" muslims?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2006 at 11:00
The Gorani are kind of interesting group, Charge. Many of them adopted Slavic names during the war and were considered to be Serbian spies. Whether or not that's true, who knows - but there is enough of a negative impression among especially Albanians and to a lesser extent Bosniaks.

About this new map - I've looked at it very carefully and I would be willing to say this is the most accurate representation of Serbia and Montenegro's Bosniak community that I've ever seen. They even have shown the Bosniak population is more than 3.1 per cent in several coastal districts. This is very important because there actually are Islamic towns in the area (Stari Bar, on the hills above Bar, for example).

Now what really impresses me is this: Ulcinj district is shown to have a Bosniak population less than 10 per cent. Kosovo (with the exception of a few districts) is shown almost completely in white, meaning little or no Bosniak population. This demonstrates they are showing only Bosniaks and not Albanians. If they were showing Albanian Muslims as well, the whole of Kosovo would be dark green and the Berane district in the Sandzak would be a shade darker - as well as other districts like Rozaje and Ulcinj.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2006 at 11:15
Here's another interesting map, Charge. It just of reflects very accurately the termoil in the Sandzak over the last several centuries. It really is everyone's border, kind of unfortunate for them I suppose.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Chargemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2006 at 12:51

Tonight i don`t have more time, but i promis to post my comments later. This will be plesure for me.

For now i will post this map, who is similar to your map, but Sandzak/Sanjak is expressly shown:



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2006 at 13:23
Well it was shown in the last one as well it just wasn't labelled. I don't like that this map shows it shared between Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Ottoman Empire. Neither really had much to do with it at that time. It would be better to have it it's own color with stripes from Bosnia and from the Ottoman Empire leaking in slightly on both sides. More accurate.

Interesting map, though. I always forget that after Kotromanic made Bosnia the biggest country in the former Yugoslavia, we stayed that way for quite a long time.

EDIT: And there is no way Serbia didn't have some influence in northern Kosovo, there should be lines leading in there as well.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Chargemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2006 at 08:08

Quote And there is no way Serbia didn't have some influence in northern Kosovo, there should be lines leading in there as well.

My english is not so good. Can you post some subsidiary explanation?

Quote I don't like that this map shows it shared between Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Ottoman Empire.

I was thinking that you know very well why in this map Sandzak is shown in this way/mode. The reason for this is that in 1878 Austria-Hungary has occupied Bosnia and by the Berlin agreement Snadzak remains with turkish rule/management but in Sandzak was situated austrian army/troops . In 1908 Austria-Hungary do annexation of Bosnia but has drawn out her troops from Sandzak.

This is a map of the austrian occupation of Bosnia in 1878 year:



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