History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Calendar   Register Register  Login Login


Forum LockedThe Norman invasion

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
winningstad View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 20-Nov-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3
Post Options Post Options   Quote winningstad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Norman invasion
    Posted: 31-May-2009 at 16:23
What were the most important consequenses of the Norman invasion for the development on the British Isles?

The question is kind of silly, because I think the answer would have to rely on too much contrafactual reasoning. But it may very well show up on my exam in a couple of days, so I´d be happy for any input.

First of all, I´m a bit confused when it comes to the concept of centralized feudalism. How did it matter to the political development? Anglo-Saxon England was very well organized even before the invasion, right?

Swapping the entire ruling class was obviously bound to make an impact, cultural as well as political. But at the same time it is my understanding that the Normans took good use of the existing structures (that´s how they gathered information for the doomesday book so quickly). So I guess I have to point out the most important ways in which their practises differed from the Anglo Saxons, and how that led to an outcome (for instance parliamentary democracy), that would not have been produced had William lost at Hastings.


Back to Top
JRScotia View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 12-May-2009
Location: Alba
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 78
Post Options Post Options   Quote JRScotia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 16:34
I hardly see "parliamentary democary" as an outgrowth of the Norman invasion. I'm not big on alternative history which seems way too speculative on my taste though, so I can't really go further than that. There was nothing in the Norman system of government that particularly led them toward either democratic or representative government, however. This can as easily have happened in spite of the Norman invasion as because of it.   

Edited by JRScotia - 31-May-2009 at 16:46
Saor Alba
Back to Top
winningstad View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 20-Nov-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3
Post Options Post Options   Quote winningstad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 16:49
Well, parliamentary democracy was just an example. And as I stated above, I agree that the answer to my question easily becomes too contrafactual. But still, I would assume the Normans, swapping out the entire elite, would bring something with them that made a difference on the political development. But I don't know, that's why I'm asking:) 
Back to Top
JRScotia View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 12-May-2009
Location: Alba
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 78
Post Options Post Options   Quote JRScotia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 17:21
My own speculation: I would put down the devastation of the entire Welsh culture down to the Norman invasion. I'd say the same about the interminable wars between Scotland and England--would nver have happened without the Norman invasion which led to a much more aggressive government and leaders. Not that the Saxons hadn't at times fought with their neighbors but not with nearly the determination of complete subjugation of the Normans. 

Edit: But since that comes from an anti-English position, take it for what it's worth. (Doesn't mean I'm anti-Norman though having a few such ancestors myself, but the Normans seemed particularly prone toward foreign conquest)


Edited by JRScotia - 31-May-2009 at 17:24
Saor Alba
Back to Top
Parnell View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 04-Apr-2007
Location: Ireland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1367
Post Options Post Options   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 17:34
The Normans brought Britain into the medieval world of Europe. The Anglo Saxons were essentially disinterested in events abroad; When the Normans arrived, with their huge family connections on both sides of the channels it dragged them into a world which Britain had not been in before.
"Neither apathy nor antipathy can ever bring out the truth of history" Eoin Mac Neill.
Back to Top
JRScotia View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 12-May-2009
Location: Alba
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 78
Post Options Post Options   Quote JRScotia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 18:00
Probably a lot of truth to that. While the Saxons had some ties with Europe--after all they had intermarried, but not nearly to the extent that the Normans did. 
Saor Alba
Back to Top
King John View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 01-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1368
Post Options Post Options   Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 18:05
The Normans brought Judicial Combat to England as a form of irrational proof.  They also brought a different judicial system that was set up parallel to that which was already on the ground prior to 1066.  This split judicial system turned into what is now called Common Law under Henry II and his judicial reforms.
Back to Top
winningstad View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 20-Nov-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3
Post Options Post Options   Quote winningstad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 18:57
Originally posted by JRScotia

Probably a lot of truth to that. While the Saxons had some ties with Europe--after all they had intermarried, but not nearly to the extent that the Normans did. 


Yeah, the quintessential Anglo-Saxon king, Edward the Confessor, was son of Emma of Normandy and exiled there if I´m not mistaken.

But at any rate Parnell's point seems to be very true. England became a part of the European feudal system. And its focus changed from north to south (although that may have had to do with viking decline as well? The extent to which I don't know Norwegian history is terrifying!)
Back to Top
bod View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 25-Apr-2009
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 24
Post Options Post Options   Quote bod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 19:15
Originally posted by JRScotia

My own speculation: I would put down the devastation of the entire Welsh culture down to the Norman invasion. I'd say the same about the interminable wars between Scotland and England--would nver have happened without the Norman invasion which led to a much more aggressive government and leaders. Not that the Saxons hadn't at times fought with their neighbors but not with nearly the determination of complete subjugation of the Normans. 

Edit: But since that comes from an anti-English position, take it for what it's worth. (Doesn't mean I'm anti-Norman though having a few such ancestors myself, but the Normans seemed particularly prone toward foreign conquest)

You could add France to your list of problematic relationships caused by the Norman invasion.
Back to Top
Wulfstan View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 15-Feb-2008
Location: Mercia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
Post Options Post Options   Quote Wulfstan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 19:43
My own opinion is that William the Bastard perverted and diverted England from her true course of association with the Nordic countries. The conquest by the Normans involved England in a futile quest for French provinces which was not to end until four hundred years had past. Was William`s ravaging of the North worth it because the effects were felt for centuries?
 
During the battle at Hastings, an axe wielded by a huscarl felled William` horse. Many English folk at that time no doubt wished it had been William who had been felled.
 
As the Nordic poet Thorkil Skallason said:
 
Cold heart and bloody hand
Now rule the English land.
From Woden sprang all our royal kin.
Back to Top
JRScotia View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 12-May-2009
Location: Alba
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 78
Post Options Post Options   Quote JRScotia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2009 at 21:50
Absolutely true. I didn't intend it as a complete list. I think there would have been huge changes (mostly for the better but no doubt some for the worst because humans have such CAPACITY for the worst) in the history of the British Isles and Europe in general had the conquest not taken place. But such speculation tends to be nothing but frustrating. I can think of a number of times when the fate of history balanced on a knife's edge and try not to think on it too much in many cases.

If only...

Originally posted by bod

Originally posted by JRScotia

My own speculation: I would put down the devastation of the entire Welsh culture down to the Norman invasion. I'd say the same about the interminable wars between Scotland and England--would nver have happened without the Norman invasion which led to a much more aggressive government and leaders. Not that the Saxons hadn't at times fought with their neighbors but not with nearly the determination of complete subjugation of the Normans. 

Edit: But since that comes from an anti-English position, take it for what it's worth. (Doesn't mean I'm anti-Norman though having a few such ancestors myself, but the Normans seemed particularly prone toward foreign conquest)

You could add France to your list of problematic relationships caused by the Norman invasion.


Edited by JRScotia - 31-May-2009 at 21:56
Saor Alba
Back to Top
Evrenosgazi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 379
Post Options Post Options   Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 14:43
Let us think. The norwegian army crushed Harold Godwinson at Stanford bridge, then march south routs the normans and controlled England. Would England be a world or continental power ? One of the important events in world history
Back to Top
JRScotia View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 12-May-2009
Location: Alba
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 78
Post Options Post Options   Quote JRScotia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 15:11
I'm not sure I get your point. I'm a long way from convinced that barring the Norman invasion that England would have been conquered by Norway.

Yes, it is an extremely important event in world history. That's why much would have been changed had the Normans been defeated. 
Saor Alba
Back to Top
bod View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 25-Apr-2009
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 24
Post Options Post Options   Quote bod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 16:13


The Normans were of Scandinavian descent, Normandy was a Viking province who had embraced French culture. 
Back to Top
JRScotia View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 12-May-2009
Location: Alba
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 78
Post Options Post Options   Quote JRScotia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 17:30
Quite true too, which in a round-about way meant that the Vikings did conquer England. In fact, my understanding is that the very name Norman came from their Norse origins.


Originally posted by bod



The Normans were of Scandinavian descent, Normandy was a Viking province who had embraced French culture. 


Edited by JRScotia - 01-Jun-2009 at 17:31
Saor Alba
Back to Top
Reginmund View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 08-May-2005
Location: Norway
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1942
Post Options Post Options   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 17:53
Partly Scandinavian descent, to be correct. Vikings usually married local woman where available. 
Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum,
þeod-cyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Back to Top
bod View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 25-Apr-2009
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 24
Post Options Post Options   Quote bod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 22:25
Nothman - Norman
Back to Top
hodekin View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 03-Jun-2009
Location: East Anglia UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 11
Post Options Post Options   Quote hodekin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2009 at 14:30

The Norman invasion of Saxon England, irretrievably broke the Northern facing outlook previously held (influenced heavily by the Old Scandinavian Empire of Canute) and instead brought about a southern facing exposure based on France, Papal Italy and all points leading to Byzantium.

 

In terms of Parliamentary Democracy, I should imagine that it would have been reached far more quickly in England via the concept of the Scandinavian 'Thing' rather than the autocratic Norman version of 'The Divine right of Kings' which as we know only came to an end with the advent of the English Civil War!

 

Had the Norman invasion never happened, Harold Hardaada of Norway and Swyen Estrithson of Denmark were still real contenders for the English crown and 'could' have usurped it at almost any time. Had either one of them done this, I cannot see the social structure and laws of Saxon England being greatly changed to any degree. England would have simply remained within the Scandinavian orbit of influence with which she was already quite comfortable.

 

The Norman takeover however was almost totally alien to the English in every degree, and it was this advent which brought about the expansionist policies and drive which England has been noted for ever since.

 

Without the Norman invasion of 1066 I honestly cannot see England being a major contributor to the Crusader movement and all that went with it in later years!

 

hodekin

A King he was on a carven throne in many pillared halls of stone,
with golden roof and silver floor and runes of power upon the door.
Back to Top
Wulfstan View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 15-Feb-2008
Location: Mercia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
Post Options Post Options   Quote Wulfstan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2009 at 19:53
Hodekin:
 
What is less well known is the involvement of the English in the Byzantine Varangian Guard after the Battle of Hastings. Indeed, there was a large exodus of English to the Eastern Roman Empire at this time, and probable English settlements on the Black Sea coast.
From Woden sprang all our royal kin.
Back to Top
Parnell View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 04-Apr-2007
Location: Ireland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1367
Post Options Post Options   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2009 at 20:23
England played a very minor part in the crusading movement. To be sure, a few went on various expeditions, such as the taking of Lisbon or (Forget the fellows name, adventurer type) in 1104 (?) when a couple of ship loads of them helped King Baldwin overturn the Fatimids after the battle of Ramleh at Jaffa, but other than that they played a very small role in any serious expedition until the Third Crusade, and even then England was more like a crusading bank for King Richard than a confident 'English fighting force' People forget that the banner Richard brought with him to the crusade came and represented his beloved Aquitaine, not England.
"Neither apathy nor antipathy can ever bring out the truth of history" Eoin Mac Neill.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.