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Forum LockedThe mysterious origin of the Hakka People

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    Posted: 17-Apr-2006 at 01:03

The Hakkas are a unique ethnic group of "Han" Chinese people whose ancestors are said to originate from around Henan and Shanxi in northern China over 2,700 years ago. They are thought to be one of the earliest "Han" settlers in China. One theory has it that many of the early Hakkas were affiliated with the "royal bloods". It is highly likely that while Hakka may be a stronghold of Han culture, Hakka people also have married other ethnic groups and adopted their cultures during the long migration history of 2000 years.

There are many theories about the origin of the Hakka people. (1) Some argue that they may actually be descendants of the indigenous southern She 畬族 / Yue 越族. (2) Some argue that they are Xiongnu  匈奴descendents. (3) However, most agree that they are probably descendants of Han migrants from the north. Some date the first migration as from Qin dynasty (220 -206 BC) when the first unified Chinese nation was formed. But most scholars agree that Hakka Chinese migrated from northern China to the south starting from East Jin dynasty (317-420 AD). Their ancestors migrated southwards because of social unrest, upheaval, or by invasion of foreign conquerors. Subsequent migrations occurred at the end of the Tang Dynasty when China fragmented, during the middle of the Song Dynasty which saw a massive depopulation of the north, and a flood of refugees southward when the Jurchens captured the northern Song capitol, and the fall of the Song to the Mongols in the Yuan Dynasty and when the Ming Dynasty fell to the Manchu who formed the Qing Dynasty.

Some claim Hakka as "pure" Han people. But pure Han really does not exist. Recent archaeological studies have shown that China had multiple centers of civilization, developed rather independently of each other. Yangshao 仰韶 (Henan), Banpo 半坡 (Shaanxi), Hongshan 紅山 (Liaoning) , Liangzhu 良渚 (Jiangsu/Zhejiang), Sanxingdui 三星堆 (Sichuan), Longshan 龍山 (Shandong) all eventually merged into the Han culture. Han people are thus the integrated composite of several different tribes. Hakkas as Han cannot be ethnically pure. Hakka have been at the interface of ethnic conflicts for many dynasties. Genetically speaking, some Hakka people have clearly inherited some non-Han features such as wavy hair and high nose bridge. Hakka must have incorporated these features from the different ethnicities along the migration path through out the 2000 years of history.

The term Hakka (guest families) is a misnomer, only used since Qing dynasty. The spelling "Hakka" is derived from the pronunciation in Hakka dialect ( pronounced as "haagga" in Hakka and "kejia" in Mandarin). They are referred to as "guest people" for their wandering past. Although they are frequently distinctive in culture and language from the surrounding population, they are not considered a separate ethnic group by Chinese and are seen as part of the majority Han Chinese. Their spoken language can find roots in ancient classical Chinese.

Hakka people are now found in the southern Chinese provinces of Guangdong, western Fujian, Jiangxi, southern Hunan, Guanhgxi, southern Guizhou, south eastern Sichuan, Hainan, and Taiwan islands. 

Hakka people are noted for their preservation of certain cultural characteristics that could be traced to pre-Qin period as expressed in the custom, foods, spoken language, etc. Among all the Chinese people, Hakkas are among the most conservative in keeping the traditions. Yet, many are willing to take risks and seek new opportunities elsewhere to establish themselves. The migratory tradition results in the distribution of Hakka in the most remote part of the world. During the last hundred years or so, Hakka people migrated to South East Asia, East Africa, Europe (Holland, United Kingdom, France, Germany..), South America (Brazil, Trinidad...) Canada, US. About 7% of the 1.2 billion Chinese clearly state their Hakka origin or heritage. There are roughly 50 million to 75 million Hakkas all over the world. Hakka Chinese probably can claim the widest coverage by a single people.

References:

http://www.asiawind.com/hakka/

http://www.asiawind.com/forums/read.php?f=3&i=137330& ; ;t=137310

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakka



Edited by flyingzone
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Quote Some claim Hakka as "pure" Han people. But pure Han really does not exist.

I wrote something about Hakka in another thread

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10383&am p;am p;am p;PN=2

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2006 at 19:48

 

     The Hakka have particular style of music referred to as Eight tone. Named after the eight materials used to make the instruments used.

this link will take you a site that explains it better and also has an Audio Sampler of 4-5 different songs.

 

                    http://club.ntu.edu.tw/~hakka/emusic/eight.htm



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2006 at 20:39

Quote Some claim Hakka as "pure" Han people. But pure Han really does not exist. Recent archaeological studies have shown that China had multiple centers of civilization, developed rather independently of each other. Yangshao 仰韶 (Henan), Banpo 半坡 (Shaanxi), Hongshan 紅山 (Liaoning) , Liangzhu 良渚 (Jiangsu/Zhejiang), Sanxingdui 三星堆 (Sichuan), Longshan 龍山 (Shandong) all eventually merged into the Han culture. Han people are thus the integrated composite of several different tribes. Hakkas as Han cannot be ethnically pure. Hakka have been at the interface of ethnic conflicts for many dynasties.

Its obvious, this article was written by someone who doesnt know well of Hakka heritage, and in general Chinese heritage.

http://www.hakkazg.com/

http://www.hakkaonline.com/

http://www.worldhakka.org/

Quote There are many theories about the origin of the Hakka people. (1) Some argue that they may actually be descendants of the indigenous southern She 畬族 / Yue 越族. (2) Some argue that they are Xiongnu  匈奴descendents. (3) However, most agree that they are probably descendants of Han migrants from the north. Some date the first migration as from Qin dynasty (220 -206 BC) when the first unified Chinese nation was formed. But most scholars agree that Hakka Chinese migrated from northern China to the south starting from East Jin dynasty (317-420 AD).

There were five main wave of migrations. Because of the Hakka's unique heritage, which they were often forced to leave their homeland, strong national sense is actually one of major characteristics of the Hakka people, thats why they gave many patriotic personages.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fastspawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2006 at 07:46
i am half hakka
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayanhan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2006 at 14:36
Originally posted by flyingzone flyingzone wrote:

The Hakkas are a unique ethnic group of "Han" Chinese people whose ancestors are said to originate from around Henan and Shanxi in northern China over 2,700 years ago. They are thought to be one of the earliest "Han" settlers in China. One theory has it that many of the early Hakkas were affiliated with the "royal bloods". It is highly likely that while Hakka may be a stronghold of Han culture, Hakka people also have married other ethnic groups and adopted their cultures during the long migration history of 2000 years.

There are many theories about the origin of the Hakka people. (1) Some argue that they may actually be descendants of the indigenous southern She 畬族 / Yue 越族. (2) Some argue that they are Xiongnu  匈奴descendents. (3) However, most agree that they are probably descendants of Han migrants from the north. Some date the first migration as from Qin dynasty (220 -206 BC) when the first unified Chinese nation was formed. But most scholars agree that Hakka Chinese migrated from northern China to the south starting from East Jin dynasty (317-420 AD). Their ancestors migrated southwards because of social unrest, upheaval, or by invasion of foreign conquerors. Subsequent migrations occurred at the end of the Tang Dynasty when China fragmented, during the middle of the Song Dynasty which saw a massive depopulation of the north, and a flood of refugees southward when the Jurchens captured the northern Song capitol, and the fall of the Song to the Mongols in the Yuan Dynasty and when the Ming Dynasty fell to the Manchu who formed the Qing Dynasty.

Some claim Hakka as "pure" Han people. But pure Han really does not exist. Recent archaeological studies have shown that China had multiple centers of civilization, developed rather independently of each other. Yangshao 仰韶 (Henan), Banpo 半坡 (Shaanxi), Hongshan 紅山 (Liaoning) , Liangzhu 良渚 (Jiangsu/Zhejiang), Sanxingdui 三星堆 (Sichuan), Longshan 龍山 (Shandong) all eventually merged into the Han culture. Han people are thus the integrated composite of several different tribes. Hakkas as Han cannot be ethnically pure. Hakka have been at the interface of ethnic conflicts for many dynasties. Genetically speaking, some Hakka people have clearly inherited some non-Han features such as wavy hair and high nose bridge. Hakka must have incorporated these features from the different ethnicities along the migration path through out the 2000 years of history.

The term Hakka (guest families) is a misnomer, only used since Qing dynasty. The spelling "Hakka" is derived from the pronunciation in Hakka dialect ( pronounced as "haagga" in Hakka and "kejia" in Mandarin). They are referred to as "guest people" for their wandering past. Although they are frequently distinctive in culture and language from the surrounding population, they are not considered a separate ethnic group by Chinese and are seen as part of the majority Han Chinese. Their spoken language can find roots in ancient classical Chinese.

Hakka people are now found in the southern Chinese provinces of Guangdong, western Fujian, Jiangxi, southern Hunan, Guanhgxi, southern Guizhou, south eastern Sichuan, Hainan, and Taiwan islands. 

Hakka people are noted for their preservation of certain cultural characteristics that could be traced to pre-Qin period as expressed in the custom, foods, spoken language, etc. Among all the Chinese people, Hakkas are among the most conservative in keeping the traditions. Yet, many are willing to take risks and seek new opportunities elsewhere to establish themselves. The migratory tradition results in the distribution of Hakka in the most remote part of the world. During the last hundred years or so, Hakka people migrated to South East Asia, East Africa, Europe (Holland, United Kingdom, France, Germany..), South America (Brazil, Trinidad...) Canada, US. About 7% of the 1.2 billion Chinese clearly state their Hakka origin or heritage. There are roughly 50 million to 75 million Hakkas all over the world. Hakka Chinese probably can claim the widest coverage by a single people.

References:

http://www.asiawind.com/hakka/

http://www.asiawind.com/forums/read.php?f=3&i=137330& ; ; ;t=137310

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakka

I give some credibility to the claim of Hakka's deriving from She 畬族 / Yue 越族, though not definite. The reason is that both these two to three ethnic groups have related languages, similar physical features and strong South-Asian (southern-Chinese) culture.

But, the Hakkas cannot be the Xiongnu  匈奴descendents because it is commonly agreed that Xiongnu originated in Central Asia (later entered Northern China) and they had a totally different language system (Altaic) and different cultures (nomadic, animal husbandry).

By the time Han dynasty was expanding its territory and influence, the originally rather southern-origined Hakka people gradually moved northward and settled in a wide area.

Bu, I agree that "Hakka Chinese migrated from northern China to the south starting from East Jin dynasty (317-420 AD). Their ancestors migrated southwards because of social unrest, upheaval".  During this 5 Barbarian and 16 dynasty period, a big mass of Chinese fled to the south due to the formation of independent political regimes by Non-Chinese groups and the ethnic conflicts in the northern China.

After the establishment of Tang, which was originally of Xian Bei (Sianbi) nature, it gradually brought some southern Chinese back to the north or central China, as the Xian Bei ethnic nature gradually faded as a result of mutual assimilation.

As Tang collapsed, Chinese fled again to the south due to the upheavals of Shatuo-Turks (Five Dynasty) and the Kitans (Liao) which eventually forced  the establishment of Song Dynasty by the Chinese who fled to the south.

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too many errors and misconceptions in both Flyingzone and Dayanhan's posts, and some of those are clearly artificial ones.

instead of correcting you by translating articles from Hakka's own perspective, i leave them to the Chinese themselves to judge.

BTW: Dayanhan, Singaporean former prime minister Lee Kuang Yew is a Hakka, while hes also descendant of Tang emperor Taizong.

im interested, if he regard himself as "Xianbei", like his ancestor did?

but im sure you know which person Tang emperor claimed to be descendants, and who was that person's ancestor.

Just because Mongolian princess married Korean king, so Korean became a Mongolian dynasty, as same to say, JinCheng princess of Tang married Tibetan king, her child Chisongdezan then would be a Chinese rather than Tibetan king.

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2006 at 19:04

I agree wholeheartedly with Charioteer.

No doubt Li shimin had xianbei blood on his maternal side, but it was very minimal. His grandmother Empress Dugu was  a sinicized xianbei and her maternal side was mostly Han due to the long period of intermarriage between Han and Xianbei after the Northen Wei dynasty.

The Li Family of Tang had never proclaimed themselves as Xianbei and they proudly claimed they were descendant of  the founder of Taoism, Li Er and the Western Han General , Li Kuang.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayanhan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2006 at 15:14
Originally posted by The Charioteer The Charioteer wrote:

too many errors and misconceptions in both Flyingzone and Dayanhan's posts, and some of those are clearly artificial ones.

instead of correcting you by translating articles from Hakka's own perspective, i leave them to the Chinese themselves to judge.

BTW: Dayanhan, Singaporean former prime minister Lee Kuang Yew is a Hakka, while hes also descendant of Tang emperor Taizong.

im interested, if he regard himself as "Xianbei", like his ancestor did?

but im sure you know which person Tang emperor claimed to be descendants, and who was that person's ancestor.

Just because Mongolian princess married Korean king, so Korean became a Mongolian dynasty, as same to say, JinCheng princess of Tang married Tibetan king, her child Chisongdezan then would be a Chinese rather than Tibetan king.

 

Its not that simple as you think that "a" Non-Chinese (Tibetan or Korean) King married "a" Chinese princess.

Li Yuan's wife was clearly a Sianbi and his mother also appears to be Sianbi. Then, his son, Li Shi Min was more than a half Siabi and his wife was a Sianbi as well. Thus, Li Shi Min's sons etc are more than half Sianbi.

They were basically Sianbi.  Even assuming that they were Li Guang's descendants, Li Guang ended his life in Xiongnu country after marrying a Xiongnu Shaniyui's daugheter. 

 Further, historical data clearly state that Li Yan's ancestors entered China at the time of Sianbi Wei together with the Sianbis. This was about 450 to 500 years after Li Guang died in Xiongnu country.  By that time, even assuming there were half-Xiongnu, half-Chainese sons and daughters ( of Li Guang and his Xiongnu wife), they must have become Sianbi in the mean time over several hundred years of time.

In Sui Shu (Records of Sui State), it is also indicated that Yang Jian and Li Yuan, both of whom married Sianbi women, spoke Sianbi language rather than Chinese.

It is also recorded in Records of Han State that Li Guang left no offsprings in Han state because Emperor of Han state ordered all of Li Guang's relatives and offsping executed.

Therefore, it is more likely that Li family's claim as to Li Guang was a fabricated claim that they needed to use in order to justify or facilitate their rule in Tang state.  

 

 

 



Edited by Dayanhan
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"Li Guang ended his life in Xiongnu country" BY Dayinuan whatever.

Too many errors and misconceptions, and some of those are clearly artificial built, so I don't think you're good enough to put that judge on other. Its not that simple as you think. First of all, Li Guang didn't died in Xiongnu country, it was Li Ling, one of (I say one of his, because he had more than just one grandson) his grandson, and Li Ling left no offsprings in Han state because Emperor of Han state ordered all of Li Ling's offspring (not relatives, no sources for that) executed, second Li Yuan had got nothing to do with Li Ling but everything to do with Li Guang.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayanhan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2006 at 14:01

Originally posted by wefone90 wefone90 wrote:

"Li Guang ended his life in Xiongnu country" BY Dayinuan whatever.

Too many errors and misconceptions, and some of those are clearly artificial built, so I don't think you're good enough to put that judge on other. Its not that simple as you think. First of all, Li Guang didn't died in Xiongnu country, it was Li Ling, one of (I say one of his, because he had more than just one grandson) his grandson, and Li Ling left no offsprings in Han state because Emperor of Han state ordered all of Li Ling's offspring (not relatives, no sources for that) executed, second Li Yuan had got nothing to do with Li Ling but everything to do with Li Guang.

Its my error that I put "Li Guang" instead of "Li Ling". Thus, to that extent, you are correct. However, it is clearly recorded in Biography of Li Ling in Han Shu (Records of Han State) that Emperor of Han State ordered all Li's relatives to be executed ("Yi Zu" or "Zu" in Chinese meaning "exterminate all the members of his clan"). Thus, there were  none left in Han State who were related to Li Ling and Li Guang.   

Second, historical records explicitly say that "Li Yuan"'s ancestors (supposedly Li Ling's Sianbinized offspring, physically or otherwise) "reentered" the current territory of China after several hundred years thereafter, following the Sianbi of (Northern) Wei State.  They were part of the Sianbis, not Chinese.

That's why married Sianbi people for generations even after they reentered Chinese land and until Sui was established, according to Sui Shu (Records of Sui), they used Sianbi language in Northern Qi Court and Northern Zhou Court.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wefone90 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2006 at 19:05
Quote Its my error that I put "Li Guang" instead of "Li Ling". Thus, to that extent, you are correct. However, it is clearly recorded in Biography of Li Ling in Han Shu (Records of Han State) that Emperor of Han State ordered all Li's relatives to be executed ("Yi Zu" or "Zu" in Chinese meaning "exterminate all the members of his clan"). Thus, there were?none left in Han State who were related to Li Ling and Li Guang.

Don't give me the excuse that this is your error you put it "Li Guang" instead of "Li Ling", and thus, I was right, I don't swing that way. I don't even think you have access to the biography as you pretended nor you could read them, either way since you could gather up those information by your superficial reading. I would tell you that Emperor of Han State ordered Li Ling's mother, younger bothers and wives to be executed, nothing with regard to his relatives. As for the other claims you made, you can keep it for yourself, because I'm not interested to your own objection.

Edited by wefone90
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Originally posted by flyingzone flyingzone wrote:


Hakka people are noted for their preservation of
certain cultural characteristics that could be traced to
pre-Qin period as expressed in the custom, foods,
spoken language, etc.燗mong all the Chinese
people, Hakkas are among the most conservative in
keeping the traditions. Yet, many are willing to take
risks and seek new opportunities elsewhere to
establish themselves. The migratory tradition results
in the distribution of Hakka in the most remote part of
the world. During the last hundred years or so,
Hakka people migrated to South East Asia, East
Africa, Europe (Holland, United Kingdom, France,
Germany..), South America (Brazil, Trinidad...)
Canada, US. About 7% of the 1.2 billion Chinese
clearly state their Hakka origin or heritage. There are
roughly 50 million to 75 million Hakkas all over the
world. Hakka Chinese probably can claim the widest
coverage by a single people.




I think that is a bit too over on the figure that you had
mentioned. Overseas Chinese accounts about 69
million throughout the world. Hakkas is widely
planted and the number are high at about 25
millions who lives outside China, not the 50-75
millions that you had mentioned.

As for why Hakka are widely scattered around the
world because they will the main exported labourers
from China. Most of them were employed as miners,
sugar cane workers, labourers and coolies by the
British And French to work on their colonial
plantations, factory and mines. During the late 19th
century, the British and French owned colonies
occupied almost 70% of the world territory.

Another group that bring Hakkas to their mines and
plantations are the Minanese (Hokkien) who are the
major dominant of South East Asia (Nanyang)
economy in which Hakka people are employed to
work at their mines, plantations and factories.

Edited by guo hua
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayanhan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2006 at 14:32

Originally posted by wefone90 wefone90 wrote:

Quote Its my error that I put "Li Guang" instead of "Li Ling". Thus, to that extent, you are correct. However, it is clearly recorded in Biography of Li Ling in Han Shu (Records of Han State) that Emperor of Han State ordered all Li's relatives to be executed ("Yi Zu" or "Zu" in Chinese meaning "exterminate all the members of his clan"). Thus, there were?none left in Han State who were related to Li Ling and Li Guang.

Don't give me the excuse that this is your error you put it "Li Guang" instead of "Li Ling", and thus, I was right, I don't swing that way. I don't even think you have access to the biography as you pretended nor you could read them, either way since you could gather up those information by your superficial reading. I would tell you that Emperor of Han State ordered Li Ling's mother, younger bothers and wives to be executed, nothing with regard to his relatives. As for the other claims you made, you can keep it for yourself, because I'm not interested to your own objection.

Whatever you may pick on my error, it is unchangeable fact that Li Yuan and his descendants claimed Li Ling and his Hun mother as their ancestors. Yet, they lived in Hun country for several hundred years and came to what is called China of Northern Dynasty at the time of Sianbi migration together with them.

In the mean time, they married Siabi people for generations and generations, including Li Yuan and Li Shimin. Biologically, they were not Chinese any more over the several hundred years and repeated marrieges with Sianbi people. They also served the Sianbi regimes of Northern Wei, Qi and Zhou.

Further, they spoke Sianbi language. Until very lately, they also partly maintained Sianbi culture, as the cultural anomalies of Sui and Tang states show. Therefore, Sianbi-Mongols can legitimately claim they were Sianbi-Mongols, including prior Sianbi people of Northern Yan, Southern Yan, Western Wei and Eastern Wei, even though these latter groups of people also sometimes married Chinese persons.    

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wefone90 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2006 at 17:44
Quote Whatever you may pick on my error, it is unchangeable fact that Li Yuan and his descendants claimed Li Ling and his Hun mother as their ancestors.

Its not just errors that I picked up, but the basic misconceptions, that could easily seen by the other. I don't usually bother clowns, but since you insists. I would repeat myself again. No, Li Yuan had got nothing to do with Li Ling, read more book for the sake of god, before you come and challenge the debate other had given, I already said this before. Take note that I do not wish to repeat myself a second time again, Li Yuan had got nothing to do with Li Ling, and that's all I'm got to said.

Edited by wefone90
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayanhan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2006 at 14:11

Originally posted by wefone90 wefone90 wrote:

Quote Whatever you may pick on my error, it is unchangeable fact that Li Yuan and his descendants claimed Li Ling and his Hun mother as their ancestors.

Its not just errors that I picked up, but the basic misconceptions, that could easily seen by the other. I don't usually bother clowns, but since you insists. I would repeat myself again. No, Li Yuan had got nothing to do with Li Ling, read more book for the sake of god, before you come and challenge the debate other had given, I already said this before. Take note that I do not wish to repeat myself a second time again, Li Yuan had got nothing to do with Li Ling, and that's all I'm got to said.

If Li Yuan has nothing to do with Li Ling, how can he (Li Yuan) claim he was the desendant of Li Guang who was Li Ling's father?

So, please read Han Shu Li Ling Zhuan (Biography of Li Ling of Han History), Sui Shu (Records of Sui State) and Tang Shu.

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wefone90 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2006 at 18:19
Quote If Li Yuan has nothing to do with Li Ling, how can he (Li Yuan)燾laim he was the desendant of Li Guang who was Li Ling's father?

So, please read Han Shu Li Ling Zhuan (Biography of Li Ling of Han History),燬ui Shu (Records of Sui State) and Tang Shu.


How do you know, you don't even read Chinese. The fact that those Sienbi were as assimilated as the Japanese and Korean who lived in the South America and Southern California(Mexican), very much similarly the same, you won't called them Japanese when you looked at them. Li Yuan never directly claim Li Guang as his ancestor, he claims Li Gao as his ancestor, so indirectly he could be Li Guang descendant, since Li Gao was descended from Li Yu, one of the cousin of Li Ling.

Edited by wefone90
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flyingzone View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-May-2006 at 20:12

I started this thread with information based on information that I obtained from the internet which, as you guys all know, may not be the most reliable source as Charioteer rightly pointed out. Since then, I've read more about the topic. I just finished reading this book entitled "Guest People: Hakka Identity in China and Abroad" (1996) (edited by Nicole Constable; Seattle: University of Washington Press) and I would like to share with you some of the information that I got from it.

1.  According to the editor and the authors of the book, the Hakka identity, not unlike other "ethnic identity", can be construed as one that is "culturally constructed and symbolically expressed" in different contexts. In other words, ethnic identity is SITUATIONAL. There is nothing "inherent" about it. (I know some AE members who are active in the East Asian section may resist this idea ...       )

2. There are two Hakka communities that exhibit a strong sense of Hakka identity - Shung Him Tong in the New Territories (Hong Kong) and the Calcutta Hakka (India).

  • The Shung Tim Tong Hakka are distinguished by their adhesion to Christianity that enabled them to identify themselves as both Chinese and Christian
  • The Calcutta Hakka were tanners in a society based on the opposition to purity and impurity - they were considered to be "outsiders" because of the pollution of leather tanning

3. There are two Hakka communities that have a weak sense of Hakka consciousness - the Hakka of Tsuen Wan (Hong Kong) and those in interior Malaysia

  • The Hakka of Tsuen Wan found their identity as original settlers ("benturen") more benificial economically and politically than a Hakka identity (which was only manifested in private and domestic rituals)
  • Hakka in interior Malaysia preceived the defining boundary as between Malaysians and Chinese, not between Hakka Chinese and other Chinese

4. All of the Hakka communities are currently facing erosion of ethnic distinctiveness and consciousness as a result of industrialization and cultural homongenization - as a result of that, Taiwan Hakka have made numerous attempts to revitalize Hakka ethnicity; Taiwan is the only place where Hakka identity seems to be strengthening due to such a conscious effort to "reconstruct" it especially by Hakka scholars.

CONCLUSIONS: Hakka ethnicity is not monolithic. More research need to be done on the emergence of Hakka ethnic consciousness in 10th century China. Constable asserts that there are actually few observable cultural differences between Hakka and other "ethnic" groups except certain stereotypes about the Hakka people (e.g. unique gender role, their "clannishness", etc.)



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayanhan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2006 at 15:17
Originally posted by wefone90 wefone90 wrote:

Quote If Li Yuan has nothing to do with Li Ling, how can he (Li Yuan)燾laim he was the desendant of Li Guang who was Li Ling's father?

So, please read Han Shu Li Ling Zhuan (Biography of Li Ling of Han History),燬ui Shu (Records of Sui State) and Tang Shu.


How do you know, you don't even read Chinese. The fact that those Sienbi were as assimilated as the Japanese and Korean who lived in the South America and Southern California(Mexican), very much similarly the same, you won't called them Japanese when you looked at them. Li Yuan never directly claim Li Guang as his ancestor, he claims Li Gao as his ancestor, so indirectly he could be Li Guang descendant, since Li Gao was descended from Li Yu, one of the cousin of Li Ling.

It is indeed true that Li Gao, King of Xi Liang claimed to be the offspring of Li Ling. But, except for this bare claim, there is no records to verify the truth thereof. Further, there were two more groups claiming the same ancestry from Li Gao, including Li Yuan's family. I forgot the name of one guy (Check Sui Shu or Tang Shu).

But, both of these groups reentered "Chinese" land later than Li Gao, during (Northern) Wei of the Sianbis.  Further, it is arguable to say that Xi Liang State was located in Chinese land because Xi Liang area was located outside of traditional Chinese areas, which was former Xiongnu area. 

However, both Li Gao, Li Yuan and the other guy all attempted to use some Chinese ancestry in order to strengthen their position in Chinese land, like many so-called Chinese kings attempted to claim their ancestry from some famous guys. Thus, this makes their claims very weak.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wefone90 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-May-2006 at 17:11
Quote It is indeed true that Li Gao, King of Xi Liang claimed to be the offspring of Li Ling.

I'm got to repeat myself again for the last and second times, Li Yuan or Li Gao or whatever had got nothing to do with Li Ling, as I had explained this before previously on my post; Li Gao was descended from Li Yu, whose father was different from Li Ling, Li Ling father was Li Danghu, while his father was Li Gan. Its not just claim, but a full genealogical chart had also been produced under Tangshu by them.
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