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Forum LockedThe most fierce tribe in N. America

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edgewaters View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 17:29
I can't go with the Aztecs or the Maya; the Aztecs fell swiftly to very early European firepower and machinations, where more northerly tribes easily resisted initial attacks, some lasting a century or more in constant warfare with Europeans.

I can't go with any of the Plains tribes. They had a brief moment where they were "ferocious" because of a lucky combination of newer firearms, horses, and a geography suited to those things, but it was a brief period.

My vote goes with the Iroquois - they were dominating their neighbours and building an empire at the time the Europeans showed up, and not only did they survive that arrival, they turned it to their advantage and accelerated their conquests. They participated in numerous wars with European powers, and in the end were never really conquered but torn apart by internal disagreements over which power to support. By far this group was present on more of the great battlefields of North American history and made a much greater impact in war, across the span of centuries, than any other single native entity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mayra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2009 at 22:15
I missed this thread. here is a link for blackfeet.
 
It sounds like they controlled a very wide area and talks about how they kept their southern neighbours under control also. I had a friend who was Blackfeet, and actively involved in the reservation, traditions etc. He told me that the people used to smear their body in excrement, dangle cut off ears on necklaces, basic scare tactics. It's hard to say looking back who was most fierce, but this guy was an ex Ranger and pretty scary. He'd killed a lot of people in covert operations and seemed pretty suited to it...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 04:04
Originally posted by edgewaters edgewaters wrote:

I can't go with the Aztecs or the Maya; the Aztecs fell swiftly to very early European firepower and machinations, where more northerly tribes easily resisted initial attacks, some lasting a century or more in constant warfare with Europeans.
 
There is a mistake, here. The Aztecs didn't surrender but were crashed in a major disaster that only can be compare to the bombings of Germany or the Nukes in Japan. The Aztecs simply didn't have more resources to resist, and died fighting against superior forces of Spaniards and every single native enemies they had.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 07:44

I didn't say they surrendered. I just said they fell swiftly.

The Blackfoot were a fierce group, but weren't able to build an empire and compete as an equal with colonial powers at any point - the Iroqouis did this from the time of contact until just before the American Revolution (which tore them apart, internally).



Edited by edgewaters - 26-May-2009 at 07:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Canadian Guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 07:44
Originally posted by Anishnabe Anishnabe wrote:

The answer to this question is an easy one. the most fierce tribe in
N.america was the not the lakota(dakota), the huron or the mighty six nations (Mohawk, seneca,onondaga,onieda,cayuga, tuscarora), but the only tribe to beat them all.  Although most of the battles the anishnabe fought in were from a defensive standpoint they were able to push the six nations land out of central and southern Ontario to were they are today in upstate new york. As well as push the lakota out of the some parts of minnesota. the ojibway didnt go looking for trouble but if other tribes started to encroch on there lands they were more then able to push them all back. 
  So, your Anish as well eh? It is good to find other Anish in the internet community. I was born in Garden River. We Ojibwa were considered a superpower above Mexico by the whites at somepoint in time. 
 
BTW: for those who consider the Blackfoot nation as Blackfeet, plz don't state them as Blackfeet, that is a bit racist and they find that insulting. Blackfoot is that nations name. Just for further consideration. I will get the staff on any member for racisim.Wink


Edited by The Canadian Guy - 26-May-2009 at 07:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 13:24
Originally posted by edgewaters edgewaters wrote:

I didn't say they surrendered. I just said they fell swiftly.

As I said. Your argument is false. Don't match historical events.
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mayra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2009 at 14:44
Originally posted by The Canadian Guy The Canadian Guy wrote:

Originally posted by Anishnabe Anishnabe wrote:

The answer to this question is an easy one. the most fierce tribe in
N.america was the not the lakota(dakota), the huron or the mighty six nations (Mohawk, seneca,onondaga,onieda,cayuga, tuscarora), but the only tribe to beat them all.  Although most of the battles the anishnabe fought in were from a defensive standpoint they were able to push the six nations land out of central and southern Ontario to were they are today in upstate new york. As well as push the lakota out of the some parts of minnesota. the ojibway didnt go looking for trouble but if other tribes started to encroch on there lands they were more then able to push them all back. 
  So, your Anish as well eh? It is good to find other Anish in the internet community. I was born in Garden River. We Ojibwa were considered a superpower above Mexico by the whites at somepoint in time. 
 
BTW: for those who consider the Blackfoot nation as Blackfeet, plz don't state them as Blackfeet, that is a bit racist and they find that insulting. Blackfoot is that nations name. Just for further consideration. I will get the staff on any member for racisim.Wink
Oh for God's sake. Now we are going to quibble over the singular or plural of "foot" being racist??? I give up. The link I pasted here says FEET, FEET, it is for geneaology. Go report them then.
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 01:27

One group of Native Americans that also showed a good fighting ability were the Susquehannoks (also refered to as Minkess, Conestoga or Seruskwack). This people who were not especially many were among other things the protectors of the Swedish enterprise New Sweden.

They came to dominate the neighbouring Lenapes and dictate the terms of the fur trade between the Swedish colonists and the inland. They were in conflict with the Iroquois and they also fought the English. On top of that they also conflicted with the Dutch at some occassion.

At some points they really got the mighty Iroqoois confederacy on it´s knees but their resources weren´t enough for a final victory.

The Susquehannoks lent some help from Swedish soldiers (of whom some where intermarried among them) to fortify their city and they even used cannons in their defence.

As the time went by their low numbers and the multitude of their enemies finally weakend them and in the end they split up and some were assimilated in other tribes, some banded up with other groups and went westward, where they continued fighting the British and others, while some stayed in the vicinity of their old homeland. The last of the latter group (just about 20 persons), except two, were murdered by militiamen (the Paxton boys) in 1763.

 
It is interesting to notice that the only remnant we have of the language of the Susquehannoks is a vocabulary of about 100 words (Vocabula Mahakuassica) compiled by the Swedish Lutheran priest Johan Campanius in the 17th century.
 
See also this tread:
 
 
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 16-Jun-2009 at 02:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 01:41
Originally posted by The Canadian Guy The Canadian Guy wrote:

BTW: for those who consider the Blackfoot nation as Blackfeet, plz don't state them as Blackfeet, that is a bit racist and they find that insulting. Blackfoot is that nations name. Just for further consideration. I will get the staff on any member for racisim.Wink


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 02:47
Penguin, face it! The Aztec's surrendered! When you quit fighting, and accept the invader;s terms, it's called surrender. When your daughter adopts the Spanish religion, and is baptized Susana, and becomes the mistress of your conqueror (Cortes), that is defeat! The fact that there are still Mexica living in what was Tenochtitlan is proof that they were intelligent enough to know that they were beaten. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 17:10
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Penguin, face it! The Aztec's surrendered! When you quit fighting, and accept the invader;s terms, it's called surrender.
 
They were exterminated in the siege of Tenochtitlan. I wonder how many real Aztecs survived, but at least weren't many warriors left. And, of course, Germans also surrender in WW II when they didn't have more people to be send to the war.
 
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

When your daughter adopts the Spanish religion, and is baptized Susana, and becomes the mistress of your conqueror (Cortes), that is defeat! The fact that there are still Mexica living in what was Tenochtitlan is proof that they were intelligent enough to know that they were beaten. 
 
It was not called Susana but Doña Marina, and she addopted Spanish ways simply because they treat her better than Mayans! She was sold into slavery by her own mother. It those antecedents, nobody would call "Malinche" a "traitor".
 
But that has nothing to do with the topic. Europeans (all of them) simply robbed the Americas from the Amerindians. That the way we should call all those adventurers, from Columbus and everybody else. When we finally do so, we will see the "discovery" of the Americas in the real perspective.
 
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 18:33
Pinguino, you've got the wrong mistress. Dona Marina, aka la Malinche, was not Moctezuma's daughter. Notice that two of his mistresses were Moctezuma II's daughters.

From:  http://www.answers.com/topic/hern-n-cort-s

Natural children of Hernán Cortés:

  • don Martín Cortés, son of doña Marina (La Malinche), called the First Mestizo; about him was written The New World of Martín Cortés; married doña Bernaldina de Porras and had two children:
    • doña Ana Cortés
    • don Fernando Cortés, Principal Judge of Veracruz. Descendants of this line are alive today in Mexico.
  • Martín - the legitimate son of Cortés and Catalina Juárez Marcaida
  • don Luis, son of doña Antonia Hermosillo
  • doña Catalina Pizarro, daughter of his relative doña Leonor Pizarro
  • doña Leonor, daughter of doña Isabel de Moctezuma, the oldest legitimate daughter of Moctezuma II Xocoyotzin
  • doña María Cortés de Moctezuma, married to don Juan de Tolosa, a miner, daughter of Mexica (Aztec) princess Tecuichpotzin Xocoyotzin, born in Tenochtitlan on July 11, 1510 and died on July 9, 1550, daughter of Moctezuma II Xocoyotzin and wife doña María Miahuaxuchitl
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2009 at 18:37
This book on the Commanche, by a Finnlander no less, has received very good reviews. I have not read it yet, but it is on the way.

http://www.amazon.com/Comanche-Empire-Lamar-Western-History/dp/0300151179/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1245173720&sr=1-1



Edited by lirelou - 16-Jun-2009 at 18:37
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