History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Calendar   Register Register  Login Login


Forum LockedThe most fierce tribe in N. America

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
Jalisco Lancer View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Mexico
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2123
Post Options Post Options   Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The most fierce tribe in N. America
    Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 17:44
retreating aztecs ?
Does not make sense at all.
Please show some evidence.
After the fall of Tenochtitlan in Central Mexico, they were assimilated ( at least the survivors ) as well as the Tlaxcaltecas by the spaniards on their conquest of Michoacan , Jalisco, Yucatan Peninsula , Philipines and Central America.

IF, you are refering to remaining tributaries kingdoms, again, the boundaries of the Mexica Empire.




as you can see on the map, the farest point of the empire was Veracruz, REALLY FAR FAR AWAY from the Apacheria. As matter of fact, the Aztecs did not pushed north because the lands were too desertic and were populated by nomadic tribes known as Chichimecas.

Please document properly your claim.

The several branches of Apache tribes occupied an area extending from the Arkansas River to Northern Mexico and from Central Texas to Central Arizona.

Plus the Tarahumara always beated the Apaches


Edited by Jalisco Lancer
Back to Top
Ydinkäyttöinen Jousipyssy View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 17-Aug-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
Post Options Post Options   Quote Ydinkäyttöinen Jousipyssy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 01:59

It's really an apache legend and part of apache folklore, so we can't really know if it's true, but it's quite possible that some meso-americans(aztecs or not) have retreated north terrified by spaniards. This is part of apache stories about their pre-history. We know surely that apaches completely hided when spanish came and spaniards knew nothing about them till apaches started raiding spanish settlements. Unlike in woodlands, all south-west tribes tried to avoid europeans. They must have known much more about these new-comers than woodland tribes knew, so they may have been in contact with some that meso-americans that knew much more about europeans, not just: they are shiny and have huge animals.

Back to Top
Jalisco Lancer View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Mexico
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2123
Post Options Post Options   Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 09:05


well, let's clarify something about the folckore. Because the Toltecs claimed built space ships

The Apaches did not move towards Mexico till they were pushed by the Comanches till 1700.

source:
http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/AA/bma33 .html


The Mesoamerican cultures were subjugated already and the New Spain had stablished 170 years at that time.

Plus, the mesoamerican cultures did not established contacts due the geographical and terrain constrains by travelling into the desertic zones. Specially due the lack of horses, unknown till the arrival of the spaniards.

Regards

Regards
Back to Top
Ydinkäyttöinen Jousipyssy View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 17-Aug-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
Post Options Post Options   Quote Ydinkäyttöinen Jousipyssy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 11:01

That site has some crap information:

Its only speaking correctly about plains apaches influenced by other tribes. western bands had completely different culture and had nothing to do with comanches.

Rio Grande thing is crap: we can't divide apaches even roughly as every band was independent.

"Some names of Apache bands in Texas were Limita, Conejero, and Trementina": not native apache names so crap.

apaches arrived roughly at 1400 to utah and colorado, not earlier.

only less numerous and not so warlike eastern apaches had serious war with the comanches, western ones were tougher and mostly moved to arizona and western new mexico at their own will.

Altough comanche tribes pushed eastern apaches to more deserted areas, they were severely beaten by spanish and jicarilla warriors in 18th century.

btw, the Meso-American legend is western apache origin: told to me by some White Mountain tribesmen. We can't know whether it happened or not as it is apache pre-history, so I wouldn't argue about this.

Back to Top
Jalisco Lancer View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Mexico
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2123
Post Options Post Options   Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 11:50
but at least then quote your sources instead of merely disqualify it.

Regards
Back to Top
pikeshot1600 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 22-Jan-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4232
Post Options Post Options   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 16:44

Originally posted by Jalisco Lancer

but at least then quote your sources instead of merely disqualify it.

Regards

That guy really likes the word "crap."

Back to Top
Jalisco Lancer View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Mexico
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2123
Post Options Post Options   Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 19:33
Indeed

It is valid, but I think that we should base our arguments on quotes or sources.

Back to Top
AlbinoAlien View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 05-Oct-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 419
Post Options Post Options   Quote AlbinoAlien Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 10:55

well i'd like to say the cherokee (im 1/8) but that would be lying! heh, my brothers were just push over pansies.. but id have to say the most fierce are the sioux. they were the last indian tribe to win a major engagement with American troops during the Sioux war.

people are the emotions of other people


(im not albino..or pale!)

.....or an alien..
Back to Top
eaglecap View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 15-Feb-2005
Location: DesertSouthwest
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3265
Post Options Post Options   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 22:40
Iroquois/B]

I was reading some of the interesting posts. Sometime in the future I will have to do some more research on the Iroquois because they are part of my ancestral heritage. There have been two intermarriages with Native Americans in my family history but the most recent was was my great great step grandfather who was half Blackfeet, but of course he was not related to us. I still say the Apache and Blackfeet were amongst the meanest in battle. I like the Spokan-e (Salish)because in contrast they were amongst the most peaceful tribes in our in the Pacific Northwest region.
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
Back to Top
BMC21113 View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 17-Dec-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 359
Post Options Post Options   Quote BMC21113 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 23:28
I had heard it was the Osage, but I could be wrong.......
"To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace"-George Washington
"The art of war is, in the last result, the art of keeping one's freedom of action."-Xenophon
Back to Top
eaglecap View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 15-Feb-2005
Location: DesertSouthwest
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3265
Post Options Post Options   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2006 at 19:14
I have often heard that the following tribes were amongst the greatest warrriors in North America;
Blackfeet, Sioux, Apache, Modoc, the coastal tribes of the Pacific Northwest(Salish), commanche, Aztecs and the list can go on. They all had a reputation of being war-like tribes
But:
Can anyone list any peaceful tribes?
I know the Spokan-e, Nez Perz, Coeur d' Alene, Cayuse can top that list but can anyone suggest others- I'll put it on a thread.
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
Back to Top
eaglecap View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 15-Feb-2005
Location: DesertSouthwest
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3265
Post Options Post Options   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 20:34
I know little about the Iriqouis but that I share an ancestry with them but I will have to do some research in the future but I found this if anyone is interested. I have done much more research on the Salish tribes of E. Washington and N. Idaho.

http://www.tolatsga.org/iro.html



Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
Back to Top
RomiosArktos View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 13-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 309
Post Options Post Options   Quote RomiosArktos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 05:33
The way indians fought must have been really savage and fierce,at least that was the impression given to me watching Michael Mann's ''The Last of the Mohicans''
Were the Mohicans a tribe that really existed or is it fictional?



Edited by RomiosArktos
Back to Top
eaglecap View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 15-Feb-2005
Location: DesertSouthwest
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3265
Post Options Post Options   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 13:40
Originally posted by RomiosArktos


The way indians fought must have been really savage and fierce,at least
that was the impression given to me watching Michael Mann's '<span style="font-style: italic;">'The Last of the Mohicans''
</span>Were the Mohicans a tribe that really existed or is it fictional?<span style="font-style: italic;">
</spanspan style="font-style: italic;">
</span>


I am sure they were fierce but I would not take Hollywood too literal but do some research.
From what I understand the Apache would torture their enemies to death because it had something to do with their beliefs in reincarnation. By torturing the enemy their souls could not get rest. I tried to find something on this via the internet but nothing so far. I found this in a history book about the Apache and the fact is they did torture their enemies. I read one sad story about how they captured a wagon train with American and Mexican men and woman. They let the Americans go and also the Mexican women but they tied the Mexican men to the spokes of the wheels and sadly set them on fire- horrible!!! This was before they realized what a threat the Americans really were to their culture.
Of course, they are not longer like this but they were true warriors.
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
Back to Top
RomiosArktos View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 13-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 309
Post Options Post Options   Quote RomiosArktos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 15:44
Originally posted by eaglecap



I read one sad story about how they captured a wagon train with American and Mexican men and woman. They let the Americans go and also the Mexican women but they tied the Mexican men to the spokes of the wheels and sadly set them on fire- horrible!!! This was before they realized what a threat the Americans really were to their culture.


Did the Mexicans hurt  them in the past?It seems that probably  something they had done pissed the natives off.

Back to Top
Spartakus View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
terörist

Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4496
Post Options Post Options   Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 15:49

I think the word Indian is not appropriate to use Romios.Better Native Americans.

"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
Back to Top
eaglecap View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 15-Feb-2005
Location: DesertSouthwest
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3265
Post Options Post Options   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 15:57
From what I have read the Apaches were migrating from the north the same time that the Spanish were colonizing the areas we call New Mexico and Arizona.
I am not completely sure but the Apaches were a war-like tribe and it was probably a clash of cultures. I read somewhere that their language is related to the Turkic language but I have no source on that.
I sure it also offered a good chance for them to raid, steal horses, women, goods, and fight.
It was also probably a clash over territory as well but why they hated the Mexicans so much I really am not sure what started it but they learned to dislike the Americans later even more.
The Blackfeet of Montana were also a tribe that was feared by both other Native American tribes and the pioneers. The Flathead (Salish tribe) moved to the other side of the Rocky Mountains to get away from the Blackfeet. The Flathead were great warriors but they were very peaceful. The area I live in was Salish territory- Spokan-e and Couer d' Alene tribes. I was talking to someone from the Spokane tribe- interesting culture and great people.

I think the word Indian is not appropriate to use Romios.Better Native Americans.

We have a lot of reservations nearby and most Indians or Native American don't mind either, that I have talked to. But here they want to be called Salish indians after their ethnic groups or tribe.
Now Injun would be an insult!!!

Edited by eaglecap
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
Back to Top
RomiosArktos View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 13-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 309
Post Options Post Options   Quote RomiosArktos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 16:14
Originally posted by eaglecap

I read somewhere that their language is related to the Turkic language but I have no source on that.



Maybe distantly related to the Ural-Altaic languages(possibly closer to Mongol language) since most of the natives migrated from eastern parts of what is now Russia to Alaska.When exactly happened this?Difficult to know since there is no written evidence.

PS:I am afraid i used an inappropriate term,the word natives should be replaced by Native Americans.I apologise for this.


Edited by RomiosArktos
Back to Top
eaglecap View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 15-Feb-2005
Location: DesertSouthwest
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3265
Post Options Post Options   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 20:46
Originally posted by RomiosArktos



Originally posted by eaglecap

I read somewhere that their language is related to the Turkic language but I have no source on that.


Maybe distantly related to the Ural-Altaic languages(possibly closer to
Mongol language) since most of the natives migrated from eastern parts
of what is now Russia to Alaska.When exactly happened this?Difficult to
know since there is no written evidence.


With the Kennewick man the theories are changing about who were the first Americans. Facial rescontructions and the bone structure indicates he was not MOngoloid like the Native Americans are suppose to be. He might be related to the Ainu of Japan but this is still speculation. Interestingly the Indians on the east coast were generally more fair skinned, depending on the tribe. Remember Indian or Native American are usually acceptable to them.
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
Back to Top
Cuauhtemoc View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 10-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 198
Post Options Post Options   Quote Cuauhtemoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 02:39
There is no question that the Native American Empires have to be considered as among the most fierce tribes. How can their achievements be disregarded? To ignore the empires of the Mexica and the Mayas would be absurd on the very face of this question! It would be like denying that Roman soldiers conquered much of their known world and were not among the greatest warriors of the old world, simply because they fell to invasions by germanic tribes in 476 A.D. Are we simply talking about resistence to Europeans as a the standard? The criteria must include the accomplishments they achieved prior to European invasion! One could ask that question about resistence to the European invasion, however that is entirely a different question! Who would deny the heroic defence and defiance of the Aztec culture once they realized that Cortez was not a returning god! What about the Maya resistence until 1697 and the fall of Tayasal! Clearly these nations must be considered as the fiercest. I wish to consider what tribe would be the fiercest in the continental United States and respond to that later. However many responses seem to be basing there responses to resistence to European invasion. I have studied extensively about the Souix, Commanches, Iroqois, Apaches and Modocs? All worthy of consideration if we are talking about fighting European incursion? What about Chief Joseph and the Nez Pierce in spite of their small numbers? They defeated every American army until they were forced to surrender, after miscalculating the distance of those pursuing them, just 40 miles from their destination in Canada? What about the Seminole? Tecumseh and the Shawnee? Is there enough information about tribes prior to European incursion? What about victories by eastern woodland tribes that killed many more then Souix did when attacked by Custer? I wish to consider this before I respond. Any websites others might suggest to me would be appreciated.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.110 seconds.