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    Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 05:00

Do you agree with me on that monarchies will rise once more one day. I imagine that the WW III will start at the most in 20 years. I believe that when the war has started then dictator will rise once more but the dynasties will gain power somehow in their one hands.

Someone said that the Age of Absolutism was over when the monarchs resided from leading armies, and I agree with him on that. But what if all major generals in Europe would start out by supporting some ancient and well-known family and then help them to get the throne back.

In some constitutional monarchies only two things can happen and both can cause riots what a neighbourign country can understand wrong and invade the first country what would have him with an ultimatum to remove from the first country or she will be attacked and most probably such things will happen.

The two things that can happen now are:

1) The King or Queen is murdered brutally and the nation rises against the killer but other monarchies can not allow their colleauges be treated that way and ask the Parliament to hand them over the armies and declare a State of War.

2) The King or Queen arrests and slaughters the Parliament in which case he would be the absolute monarch and other democracies would rise against it. In some states it can as well be possible that the Parliament is just disbanded and the King declares himself the only rightful ruler of the country. In UK it is however impossible somehow because the Parliament has agreed that it cannot be disbanded.

_______________

What do you think what can happen?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kynsi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 07:03
Heh I love apocalyptic threads =D

Indeed the monarch who desires a coup needs the support of the military. But if the monarch can't get the common soldier to support his cause the real power will be with the general.
So I think that the coup should start slowly with preperations for example by controlling the media.

I myself don't think that the "real threat" would come from so public direction as a king but a "gray eminence" who would take controll without the common people ever knowing about it... though an absolute monarch would be splendid cover for a "gray eminence".

Somewhere I read a great quote that went something like this:"If you want to know where the power is, ask who you cant criticize" which I think fits the modern politics.

Other option would come from the military direction (eg the highest officer class) who would make a direct coup and rule the country by force.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 07:11
Traditional monarchies will vanish like everything. The most ancient ruling house of the world has no more than maybe 1200 years, counting all ramifications (except maybe the Japanese royal family, which I don't know how old it is).

I can consider that new tyrants will arise and take over and maybe stabilish their own dynasties but everything has an end and all monarchies will extinguish at some point.

In any case recent history has show a quick decline of monarchies. Only in the 20th century, they had disapeared from most of the world, persisting in a symbolic role only in the places where there has been some stability and mostly under the sickening influx of British monarchy (Low Countries, Scandinavia, Arab World).

There are about 200 states in the world, yet less than 10% are monarchies, when 200 years ago almost all were.

It's ending.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 07:53

But maybe the end is a new beginning. It is sure that everything will start again too. Look, democracy vanished from the world for almost 2000 years and then rose again. If monarchies will vanish for 2000 years, then most probably we will not see their new rise but they will come again.

But a state that is as large as Russia should be controlled by a monarch or it cannot be efficent enough. Russia has been effective onyl because it is officially a federation  but a federation can dismantle itself. It would be such fun if btoh, USA and Russia would dismantle in the same month. IT would be practically impossible for wars not to start...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 10:07

Rome started a monarchy, then spent 400 years as a republic, then returned to monarchy again.

Anything's possible.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kynsi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 10:40
Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

It would be such fun if btoh, USA and Russia would dismantle in the same month. IT would be practically impossible for wars not to start...


Hehehe "such fun" as in 1939-1940?(-1945 here in Finland)

It is likely that monarchies and oligarchys will some day be "politically correct" again but will they come within 20 years it depends on so many things.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 10:58

Originally posted by Kynsi Kynsi wrote:

Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

It would be such fun if btoh, USA and Russia would dismantle in the same month. IT would be practically impossible for wars not to start...


Hehehe "such fun" as in 1939-1940?(-1945 here in Finland)

It is likely that monarchies and oligarchys will some day be "politically correct" again but will they come within 20 years it depends on so many things.

Are not most republics, democratic or not, in fact oligarchies?  The "political nation" needs to be relatively small in order for it to function. 

 



Edited by pikeshot1600
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kynsi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 11:42
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:


Are not most republics, democratic or not, in fact oligarchies?  The "political nation" needs to be relatively small in order for it to function.



Yes they are(though semantics plays a role in here)
But to speak of them as oligarchies is considerd politically incorrect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 11:46
But the problem is that they're not sufficiently democratic (participative, decentralized, not worshipping private property). Monarchies wouln't fix anything, what we need is deeper democracy. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 11:53
Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

Look, democracy vanished from the world for almost 2000 years and then rose again.

That's not a good comparison. Firstly Greek democracy was completely different from modern democracies, and secondly Greek democracy was limited to a few city states (Athens, Syracuse, and perhaps some minor ones), so saying it 'vanished' from the world is quite a hyperbole when you're talking about only 2 states.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2005 at 18:54
Monarchies would not return if the normal social processes would continue without war, because absolutely no need for such an act would ever arise.

But if a full-scale war broke out with some major powers on both sides, the devastation on modern society would most probably be tremendous perhaps even a nuclear crater here and there. Such a social catastrophe would surpass WWII in the first months from its beginning most likely, and from that on, even Thomas Moores Utopia would be realistic for mankind i suppose. Monarchies would even be most preferable as the society would be set back to ground zero, and at such a state, selecting a new parliament wouldn't be the first option i guess. A strong leader in a form of autocracy or dictatorship would be the first thought for people in such serious aid.
It got a little apocalyptic, but that is the point, peace won't bring the kings back.
But in truth, getting all todays dictatorships into monarchies, wouldn't be a bad idea. It would lessen the coups and devastation of every such state, as a lawful order would atleast be in place who is next for the throne.


Edited by Kalevipoeg
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 07:26
Yes, true but there was Rome then, and it vanished still. What do we call anyways the first modern democracy? The United Provinces of Holland?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 08:36

Originally posted by rider rider wrote:

Yes, true but there was Rome then, and it vanished still. What do we call anyways the first modern democracy? The United Provinces of Holland?

I don't think the United Provinces can be considered a democracy...at least not until the brief revolutionary period of the 1790s.

This was a textbook example of Oligarchy.....  the "political nation" was based on the wealth of the merchant elites (including Jews) of the more important provinces--Holland, Zeeland, Utrecht; the moral authority of the religious leaders of the Reformed Church, and the martial skill of the nobility (the Nassauer and others inside and from outside the Netherlands).  Other than these people, and a few university men and lawyers, there was not much political participation. 

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 08:37

Rider:

BTW, nice avatar!  (Prince of Orange)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 10:18
We're still waiting for the world's first democracy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote D. Enrique Rhys-Lerma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2006 at 07:56
I believe that Monarchies could, and should rise again one day.
The government under a Monarchy is centralised, efficient and
instills a great sense of pride in a country. It also provides a
focus for religion and the military.

Puritanical constitutions - many of which we have witnessed
come to fruition over the past hundred or so years, and often
hailed as the birth of democracy - have often ended up in
appalling bloodshed and repression. Monarchy, in a modern
context provides a much safer option. Look at what the
Monarchy brought with them to Spain, stability and a great
period of reform.

The Monarchy must be brought back. However, your theories
have as yet failed to sway me, although I am willing to be
convinced as a true Monarchist.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2006 at 10:47
The problem with monarchies is that it's only as good and efficient as the monarch. How many examples do we have in history of weak and ineffective monarchs or worse, of rash and impetous monarchs, who have single-handedly undermined their state and the welfare of their citizens and those of other states? A monarch cannot be elected; if one chooses primogeniture, you take the risk that the first born is a poor ruler, whereas if the most capable member of the royal family becomes the monarch, then you run the risk of civil war. If you say that there should be some sort of elected assembly, to counteract the negative effects of an ineffective ruler, then the monarch is just a figurehead and ineffective, and hence not really needed. Let's face it people: monarchy is a failed experiment: it had 5000 years to prove itself and people have been straying away from it as other options such as republics and democracies became available. The only way it will come back is in the case of a great catastrophe and the abolition of current forms of government.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2006 at 19:17
Monarchy is certain environments can thrive. Men of outstanding and exceptional intelligence, energy and dedication can often craft a successful state. The problem is that once they die, the state they create passes to men of ordinary ability and is less sustainable. The heavy concentration of power in one human being may have done wonders for a nation when that individual was exceptionally capable, but it is disastrous when that power passes into the hands of the mediocre or ordinary.

If you mean to ask if monarchy, in the sense of inherited power and influence over large amounts of people, can continue then I do believe so. The rise of corporate dynasties and their ability to penetrate the machinery of government and the legal system is all it takes for a new type of monarchy, wearing the garb of boardroom executives, to quietly establish itself within a position of unjustifiable and undemocratic rule. All without raising so much as an eyebrow of concern from the public.


Edited by Constantine XI
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote R_AK47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2006 at 19:24

[QUOTE=Decebal]The problem with monarchies is that it's only as good and efficient as the monarch.  [QUOTE]

This is true of monarchies, dictatorships, and other forms of government that are ruled by an individual.  However, these forms of government are actually the best and most efficient.  I would rather be ruled by one person than a mob of unpredictable and stupid people (a democracy).  Democracy = Mobocracy.  Of course, I would rather live in a democracy than under the most worthless form of government, communism.  Monarchies and dictatorships will rise again.  Those forms of government ruled the people of the world much longer than any of these newer forms of government.  If monarchies and dictatorships where bad forms of government they would not have been used for thousands of years.  In time they will be back and we will be better off with them.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2006 at 19:27
Problem with monarchies is that they can be divded up with the families, and in turn that division can turn a country apart. Also, the ruling king or Queen could be killed before their heirs are even teenagrs. And the heirs, no matter how good the predessors were, can be absolutely flawed that they can hurt the country in many many ways

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