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Forum LockedThe modern Greek military

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2008 at 20:11
The initial agreement for the BMP-3 program has been signed.
The program will cost 1.2-1.3 billion Euros. 420 BMP-3 vehicles will be purchased, called BMP-3HEL. Another 30 recovery vehicles will also be purchased, as well as training equipment (shooting simulators, driving training vehicles etc).
The vehicle's armament will be all russian, with only the smoke mortars being greek (there used to be a thought of installing greek MG3 machineguns instead of the russian ones).
The vehicle will have only one IR camera (instead of two that were initially required), and will be intergrated into the greek "Iniochos" battle management system.
Further details I'll know after I purchase the magazine, which comes out on 16th of May.
These information comes from defencenet.gr

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2008 at 03:38
thanks for the update xristar, as you already know im not impressed with this purchase
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2008 at 11:33
There's nothing to get impressed with.
There was an urgent need for IFVs, and it should be covered with as less money as possible. After the negotiations for the used Marders failed, the BMP-3 was the best solution.
The army wanted to make the vehicle as hi-tech as possible, but the cost would increase beyond the limit that the ministry set. So... here it is. A cheap, mediocre IFV. It can carry troops and fire its cannon. What more do we want?Cheers

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2008 at 12:10
Better write your will . :( The BTR and BMP series were known as flaming coffins in Afghanistan, indeed the Afghans had a word for them; "a coffin for seven brothers".
 
 
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2008 at 13:58
The BTR are very weak indeed.
The BMP-3 is better protected than the BMP-1/2 (to which you reffer). I agree however it is still very vulnerable, at least in its basic version (its sides are vulnerable even to .50cal fire!). It's  frontal armour is very sloped, and can detter 30mm projectiles from a distance of 300m and further. Apparently by "30mm" is meant the russian 30X164mm, which has similar penetration power with the american 25mm, that the turkish IFV have.
Greece isn't going to use her vehicles in action like Afghanistan, but in more conventional ways. For international expeditions Greece will use wheeled vehicles, that at sooooooome time we will buy (the prediction is for two battalions of 42 wheeled IFVs).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2008 at 08:35
Originally posted by xristar xristar wrote:

Quote If it's between these two aircraft, I think the Eurofighter has the clear advantage [even if the Gripen is introduced into the tender, as well].

I think it too. But it has to do with politics also. France has supported Greece in many occasions. Their offer is also very good, better than that of the EF.
In a sunday's newspaper I read though, that accodring to a governmental official, the EF will be purchased. After all, Greece signed an agreement with the EF consortium back in 2001.
I understand the French connection. While expensive i was ok with the M2000 becuase it had other advatgaes over the F16 and added some diversty in capabilites and controlled the risk on weapons supply/accesibility. But the rafeale is not in the same class as the EF, it could be better if it was used as a replacment to both the light and heavier fighter, since it falls between those stools (normally a bad thing). But that is not what Greece needs. If not the EF , and westernised Sukhoi (like the Indian one) was the next best thing, not considering the politics of it all.
 
Gripen is in another weight class, and is a step down in term of power/capabilities (range) to an advanced F16. Good for Cyprus as a point defense fighter that wouldnt be too threatening for othersWink

Originally posted by xristar xristar wrote:

Quote I only hope the make it competitive so they get a good price on the EF, being the best choice (with a eventual bigger number than 60).

I hope that too.
60 Eurofighters is actually quite a big number for Greece. The EF is a very expensive aircraft. Greece is not Britain or Germany, nor Saudi Arabia.
Nonetheless, there is a prediction  for another 80 pieces, after 2015, and of course and unknown number of F-35..
its a big number, but can be done in stages like the F16 which it has accumilated a big fleet over time, by anyones standard.  Greece should aim for a robust hi-lo mix. IIRC Its still has some phantoms that can sold or be put into storage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2008 at 20:30
Quote Gripen is in another weight class, and is a step down in term of power/capabilities (range) to an advanced F16. Good for Cyprus as a point defense fighter that wouldnt be too threatening for others

Cyprus can't have an airforce really, because it's a small island, and her airports are within the range of the turkish rocket artillery. If Cyprus had an air force it would propably be based in Crete (or less propably in Syria).

Quote its a big number, but can be done in stages like the F16 which it has accumilated a big fleet over time, by anyones standard.  Greece should aim for a robust hi-lo mix. IIRC Its still has some phantoms that can sold or be put into storage.

I doubt if half of the Phantoms and the A-7 can fly. After these planes get retired Greece will have a mix of Mirage 2000s, F-16s and New Fighter. The Mirages all all predicted to be upgraded to 2000-5 level, the F-16 Block 30 will be retired in the mid of the next decade, while the rest will all be upgraded to Block 52+. If that happens, Greece will have a very good mix of modern or relatively modern aircraft.
Now that you mentioned it, some time ago, a country (Jordan I think?) was interested in buying Greece's stored Mirage F1s.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2008 at 10:41
Originally posted by xristar xristar wrote:


I doubt if half of the Phantoms and the A-7 can fly. After these planes get retired Greece will have a mix of Mirage 2000s, F-16s and New Fighter. The Mirages all all predicted to be upgraded to 2000-5 level, the F-16 Block 30 will be retired in the mid of the next decade, while the rest will all be upgraded to Block 52+. If that happens, Greece will have a very good mix of modern or relatively modern aircraft.
Now that you mentioned it, some time ago, a country (Jordan I think?) was interested in buying Greece's stored Mirage F1s.
IIRC the EF was to replace the A7 and phantoms, right?  I would of thought those extra - extra EF's  could come in when the Block 30's are ready to go.

In my mind the EF and Block 52+ (& M 2000-5) makes a very strong 'hi-lo' mix, even if matched against a newer F-35 fleet and  Block 50's. Though I am saying this based on reported information. BTW, I don't like complicated fleets of multi aged and multi-types of aircraft.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2008 at 08:35
Quote In my mind the EF and Block 52+ (& M 2000-5) makes a very strong 'hi-lo' mix, even if matched against a newer F-35 fleet and  Block 50's.

We'll see.
Here in Greece, however, people fear the F35 quite a lot.
Quote I don't like complicated fleets of multi aged and multi-types of aircraft.

I think noone does.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2008 at 09:23
Hows the logistic infrastructure in Greece. In many euro countries politicians seems to cut down on that, and then buy sexy new weapons, so they can say that "the defence budget has been cut to the bone" while saying that "they are committed to a strong defence".
 
 
I was looking over at Greece ORBAT (I could not find the TOE), and I can't really see the basis for having two corps HQ's.
 
 
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2008 at 11:52
Quote Hows the logistic infrastructure in Greece. In many euro countries politicians seems to cut down on that, and then buy sexy new weapons, so they can say that "the defence budget has been cut to the bone" while saying that "they are committed to a strong defence".

I'll tell you one thing, and make your own conclusions:
Greece bought 350+ Leopard II, and no ammunition.
Today, 4-5 years after the agreement, Greece has received ca 200 pieces, and has still no ammunition! Still, the fancy Leopard 2HEL participated in the 25th March parade, in Athens...Ermm
Apart from this, I'd say that generally things have matured over here, and purchases often include auxiliary vehicles, training, spare parts and support for years etc, something that did not happen very often in previous decades.

Quote I was looking over at Greece ORBAT (I could not find the TOE), and I can't really see the basis for having two corps HQ's.

Ermm...what?
Greece basically has 5 corps HQs (A', B', C', D' and ASDEN).
A' corps is based in western Macedonia, and has some conventional formation (1 armoured brigade, and some mech and inf brigades)
B' corps is based in central Macedonia. I't reffered as 'Rapid reaction corps' and inlcudes all special forces of Greece (one marine brigade, one commando bde, one airborne bde and 2 mechanized infantry brigades)
C' is based in central Macedonia, and is a NATO corps, with no units. The military wanted to disband it, but for political reasons that won't happen.
D' corps is the strongest corps of Greece, and is based in Thrace. It includes the best conventional formations of Greece (3 armoured brigades plus some mech and inf brigades)
ASDEN is the high command of interior and island defence. It includes all forces of the islands, which do not have typical divisional or brigade structure. It's forces are 2 equivalents of divisions, 4 equivalents of brigades, 1 infantry brigade and the greek forces in Cyprus (1 mechanized brigade).
sometimes it's reffered as 3 corps, apparently excluding C' and ASDEN (which are not exactly corps).

As about the need for Greece to have more than one corps HQ (was this your question?), I'm not really the one to give you the answer.
I guess however, that since the border is long and the nature of threats diverge, there is also a need for different corps, organized differently and with different missions.
Apart from this, since Greece is abandoning the division commands, one single corps would have 23 brigades! That's a lot for one HQ.


Edited by xristar - 19-May-2008 at 12:00

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2008 at 00:32
Originally posted by xristar xristar wrote:

Quote In my mind the EF and Block 52+ (& M 2000-5) makes a very strong 'hi-lo' mix, even if matched against a newer F-35 fleet and  Block 50's.

We'll see.
Here in Greece, however, people fear the F35 quite a lot.

why? it is not a dogfighter, looks like it will have a weak power/weight ratio and only has some stealth on the frontal arc. Its would make a good bomb truck (Lo-Hi) if the sky can be secured by another more able fighter. The UK as the EF (Lo-Hi) and the US has the Raptor, hence the attack and close support ability of the  F-35 will always be more important to them (and thats how they have developed it).
 
Any superoirty will be in the weapons/electronic fit, which is still be developed. BTW Turkey will not get the full blown US model, even the closer anglo allies will be lucky getting something like that. So for now it is just a big fat expensive duck that a EF or even a Blk52+ can handle.
 
over here faced with upgraded Flankers  quite a few people think the F-35 is a inadequate fighter on its own.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2008 at 20:57
I'm not the one to answer your question really.
I guess the fact that it is a stealth plane, has powerful engine and an excellent radar.

A new i picked from defencenet.gr: HAF and israeli air force will make a joint large excercise, with about 40 israeli fighters (F-16 and F-15) participating (and the greek wings of Crete). It will be the first excercise of such magnitude that Greece and Israel will make together. It certainly will be interesting.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2008 at 04:12
that would be interesting, its a way to see how good their technology is....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2008 at 14:26
Originally posted by xristar xristar wrote:

I'm not the one to answer your question really.
I guess the fact that it is a stealth plane, has powerful engine and an excellent radar.

this is a media beat up of some sorts, much like the Turkish media about the S-300 SAM when Cyprus bought them. Those SAM's are good but not like what was said.

Stealth - might not be as big an issue in air to air combat, will certainly challenge Greek SAM's, but they would have to win the air first.

Power, like i said power to weight needs to be looked at rather than the engine itself.  These things are certainly not looking like they are nimble dog fighters and would need enough advantage in stealth to make up for it.

Radar, should be good. In fact, the yet be fully developed 'fusion' of the sensors/interface around the pilot that will make these things stand out from the other fighters. The raptor will get some of this technology transplanted later on....

These planes will hurt in term of close support, strike and SEAD type mission but , so far are looking like average A-A fighters.

Read this Aussie analysis, good website even if its biased against the f-35. We don't really know how this thing will turn out (esp details) or even cost yet.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2008 at 14:33
Originally posted by xristar xristar wrote:

I'm not the one to answer your question really.
I guess the fact that it is a stealth plane, has powerful engine and an excellent radar.

A new i picked from defencenet.gr: HAF and israeli air force will make a joint large excercise, with about 40 israeli fighters (F-16 and F-15) participating (and the greek wings of Crete). It will be the first excercise of such magnitude that Greece and Israel will make together. It certainly will be interesting.


Interesting but I don't like it. Israelis will come, gather data about our airdefense (need I remind that the S-300 are stationed in Crete) and leave while we only earn some experience and "good" relationships. Meanwhile all that data can easily pass to the other side of the Aegean with which Israelis have excellent relationships.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2008 at 14:46
Originally posted by Leonidas Leonidas wrote:


Stealth - might not be as big an issue in air to air combat, will certainly challenge Greek SAM's, but they would have to win the air first.


The S400, the next generation of SAM's that are on our shoppin list are anti-stealth. Also, I think the S300 are now upgradable for such a feature.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20070705/68405566.html


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2008 at 14:49
Originally posted by Vorian Vorian wrote:

Meanwhile all that data can easily pass to the other side of the Aegean with which Israelis have excellent relationships.


Remember that Israel and Cyprus have started doing common research for oil, something that in the past would cause a great objection by Turkey, if Cyprus was involved. Now, that Israel joined there's not a word except from some noize in the beginning.

Also, remember that we have many Israeli millitary students in Greece. This excercise is nothing new. Just one level ahead.

Also, the Turkey - Israel relation is simply good, something that was established back in the days when Papandreou and Arafat (RIP) were best buddies and the Grecoisraeli relations were deteriorating. I don't see the same situation nowadays.


Edited by Flipper - 22-May-2008 at 14:54


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2008 at 15:31
I just say that we shouldn't activate the S-300 during the exercise, although I am confident the officials have already taken care of this.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2008 at 23:47
I am very sure they wont, those SAMs are top secret. The war games gives greece a chance to asses Irsleali avionics, so it cuts both ways.
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