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Forum LockedThe Middle Byzantine Military (610-1204)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tar Szerénd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2006 at 05:28
Hi!
 
Thank you, and ok, sorry.
wichbattle shows that byzantian ms?
 
TSZ
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mameluke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Dec-2006 at 17:35
Hello
       I am looking for some literature on the campaigns of Belisarius. Can someone recommend a good book on the subject?
Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 22:43
fictional literature, look up Robert Grave's Count Belisarius
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 18:32
Originally posted by Mameluke Mameluke wrote:

Hello
       I am looking for some literature on the campaigns of Belisarius. Can someone recommend a good book on the subject?
 
John Haldon. The Byzantine Wars: Battles and Campaigns of the Byzantine Era. Stroud: Tempus, 2001.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 02:20
Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2007 at 00:21
Originally posted by Brainstorm Brainstorm wrote:

And here is a representation of a Varangian Guard.(1000-1050)



This man is of Scandinavian origin ,migrated in Kievan Rus kingdom.
The shield depicts the crow-symbol of god Odin and he holds Danish Axe.

Greaves,hand protection ,chest leather strips and pteryges ,are obviously Byzantine,borrowed by the imperial arsenal.






Awesome picture, but I'm 1000% sure that Odin's symbol are ravens, not crows. The names of his two ravens are Huginn and Muninn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2007 at 05:06
whats the difference of a raven and a crow? !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tar Szerénd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2007 at 14:54
Hi!
 
The raven is larger:-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 00:15
Originally posted by CPWN CPWN wrote:

Middle Byzantine?

[IMG]height=821 src="http://img458.imageshack.us/img458/6894/78ko5.jpg" width=604>


I stood on the sea walls of Constantinople south east of the Agia Sophia. I have seen enough pics of Byzantine soldiers so I imagined my Byzantine ancestors defending Constantinople in various periods of its long history.
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athanasios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2007 at 14:45
Here are some cavalry men. The first from the right is a standard bearer(11th-12th century), the second is a katafract (10th century) and the third is also a katafract e.1050 A.D. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athanasios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2007 at 14:47
sorry, i meaned from the left....Wacko

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VenetianKnight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 11:28
I think the Byzantine Empire was the biggest FLOP militarily. They are probably the greatest empire with the worst army ever. Basically the empire never expanded but kept only to its traditional borders, which it couldn't hold, lossing to so called "Barbarians" if thats not enough to prove they were bad militarily i dont know what is. I mean come on they saw "Barbarians" as uncultured people but hey they were kicking there little buts all the way to Constaninople. I think the problem with the Byzantines was that like the Athenians they cared more about culture than warfare. They would have spent more funds building schools than building a professional army. Half their army in the Middle ages were mercenaries. There really wasnt a warrior code like in the west with the tribes, a man only learnt to become a honorable warrior. In Byzantium they could go 2 school and learn everything and they became sissys. Greeks have always been too cultured, thats what did them in I think they never really had sort of a warrior attitude or chararcteristsics about them. I know people would say hoplites but that was Sparta and Sparta owned Athens u know y because Athens read there books to much.
The greatest empires and nations were ones who took interest and concern for militarty strength like Rome, Great Britain, Napoleonic France
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Batu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 14:56
and ones that "so called barbarians".I stood in the walls of Constantinople in the south of Hagia Sophia and imagined myself as my ancestors who climbed up and conquered the city.(no offense i really did it)
A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 07:30
Byzantium lost territories and won territories. Especially the discussed period (the middle byzantine) is full of conquest.
The west did not develop the art of war to the level of the byzantines well until late middle ages (to my oppinion).
The byzantine army of the 10th-11th century was able to expand east to Armenia, south to Palestine, west into Italy, and north to Danube, practically unstoppable. It was the other internal problems that led to a collapse of the byzantine military in the mid 11th century.

Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Top Gun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2007 at 15:21
How far where the muslims with conquering of the byzantium between that time
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stung Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 12:49
 It's true the byzantine armies past the 6oo's were inferior on avarage than the arabs,franks ect,the only reason the byzantines were not conqered was that the walls of Constantinople were so thick, not the effectiveness of their armies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Top Gun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 02:57
yes I already thought that but the pride of some members about byzantines is confused me an bit
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stung Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 11:10
 I think for some members it;s hard to reconcile how powerful the Romans were with how weak the east Roman/Byzantines were, the Byzantines still called themselves Romans after all,but they just followed the nateral course and fell from power as all countries do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Athanasios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 11:38
Originally posted by VenetianKnight VenetianKnight wrote:

I think the Byzantine Empire was the biggest FLOP militarily. They are probably the greatest empire with the worst army ever.
 
 
 
Don't be so sure... The byzantine military was by far the most powerfull and sophisticated than all the others of the time. Especially between the 8th and 12th century. Don't forget the navyWink... I'll agree with you , if you refering in the era between 12th and 15th century( but then byzantium wasn't great at all...)
 
Originally posted by VenetianKnight VenetianKnight wrote:

Basically the empire never expanded but kept only to its traditional borders, which it couldn't hold, lossing to so called "Barbarians" if thats not enough to prove they were bad militarily i dont know what is.
 
 
 
Don't forget that after the "themata" system collapsing and the uprising of
nobelty and merchant class, the end of the empire had followed (teritorial and economical, 1204, 1453). As i know the losing to the Barbarians was the late roman empire's principal, not the medieval's (byzantium).
 
 
Originally posted by VenetianKnight VenetianKnight wrote:

I mean come on they saw "Barbarians" as uncultured people but hey they were kicking there little buts all the way to Constaninople.  
 
Be more speciefic about the "so called barbarians"please... I can give you many examples of the Byzantine army kicking buts of their enemies all the way to danube river , Eufrat river , Crete , Magna Grecia etc. you know why? because Byzantium existed for more than 1100 years because of its military power  firstly and diplomacy secondly. How many years did the states of the powerful barbarian wariors lastDisapprove ?(Im not refering to christianised/Romanised Bulgaria)
 
 
Originally posted by VenetianKnight VenetianKnight wrote:

I think the problem with the Byzantines was that like the Athenians they cared more about culture than warfare.  
 
 
The citizens of Constantinopole, indeed they cared more about culture than warfare like Athenians but their cultural system was totally different so i think the example is a total failure. If you ever known about "themata
" system you would probably didn't make such an argument.
So it is a good chance to start readin byzantine history my friend. It is a petty to spread the western stereotypes about  Byzantium. 
 
 
 
Originally posted by VenetianKnight VenetianKnight wrote:

 They would have spent more funds building schools than building a professional army. Half their army in the Middle ages were mercenaries.
 
 
Oh no no no no! you can't acuse byzantium about not building a professional army! Especially this. And about the mercenaries ... you mean the "so called barbarians"? It is unlikely for them to be the 1/6  of the middle byzantine era army... You can find it and by yourself...
 
Originally posted by VenetianKnight VenetianKnight wrote:

There really wasnt a warrior code like in the west with the tribes, a man only learnt to become a honorable warrior. In Byzantium they could go 2 school and learn everything and they became sissysShocked. Greeks have always been too cultured, thats what did them in I think they never really had sort of a warrior attitude or chararcteristsics about them. I know people would say hoplites but that was Sparta and Sparta owned Athens u know y because Athens read there books to much.
 
 
A warrior code is a childish nonsence for a sophisticated prof. army such the  byzantine. They fought for their lands(themata), families, Orthodoxy and Emperor and of course the glory of the Romans. Aren't those enough?!
I think that you are a master of reproducing stereotypes (sissysLOL, Athens and Sparta [who really fought in Marathon Eh?]
A State such as Byzantine empire was also based in culture and economy not only in warfare like the tribes. Thats why you can't see clear warrior attitude or chararcteristsics about them.
Your argument about Sparta and Athens is still very weak . You probably missanderstand that being educated does not mean that you can't be a great warrior of the ancient and medieval world. Please , do a research and you'll find out that there were many great Spartan personalities , not only in the military,such as Lykourgos(in his youth was trained to be a Spartan warrior like all the othersWink).
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by VenetianKnight VenetianKnight wrote:

The greatest empires and nations were ones who took interest and concern for militarty strength like Rome, Great Britain, Napoleonic France
 
What about Egyptians , Persians ,Hittites, early Ottomans, Macedonians, Chinese, Mongols and so many other?(byzantines included)
 
 
If you were refering to the late byzantine period , i wouldn't dissagree with you in some points but obviously you are affected from 18th century stereotypes about byzantium . And thats ironic, because those have been produced from Great Britain and France, your great modern military  empiresTongue(Im refering to the main states not their colonies) !

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stung Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 16:39
Originally posted by Brainstorm Brainstorm wrote:

The most Glorious Era of Byzantine History.

This is a place for posting everything related to middle Byzantine period,and its military aspect.
Military organization ,tactics,strategy,arms,armor,battles,units..etc.


How can anyone call this the most glorious era of Byzantine history ehen this is the era when everone kicked their asses, and they were militarily weak?
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