History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedThe Middle Byzantine Military (610-1204)

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 891011>
Author
Nestorian View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 08-Jul-2006
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 161
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2008 at 09:16
yep, i have heard of St John of Damascus, an insider's view of Islamic rule.
 
Considering his background and career as a civil servant of the Ummayads, his position tells us a lot of why the Arabs did not resort to persecution, they needed the Christians to admiinister their empire. IN addition, the Christians were responsible for translating Greek texts into Arabic via the Syriac language.
Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 07-Aug-2007
Status: Offline
Points: 1809
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2008 at 09:34
The translations came way after John died.
 
I don't deny persecution of the christians existance, what I wanted to say that it (as a systematic long term and heavy handed policy) came quite late in the period only after newly zealos Islamized Turks and Kurds came to rule the areas where there were lots of Christians. Before that during the reign of the Rashidun, who conquered those lands, and Ummayyads, who came immediately after them, the intolerance was minimal, keeping the fact that we are talking about the 7th century not the 21st one. Christians were forbidden from some of their rights out of fear because they were still the majority and their sympathies lied due north, but many of these were scrapped and or ignored especially during the stages when the state was powerful and Byzantine threat was minimal.
 
Al-Jassas 
Back to Top
Count Belisarius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Magister Militum

Joined: 25-Jul-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1114
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2008 at 22:55
Hi can anyone tell me the names of a klibanophoros' equipment?


Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)


Back to Top
Brainstorm View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 21-Sep-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 395
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2008 at 12:46
Originally posted by Count Belisarius Count Belisarius wrote:

Hi can anyone tell me the names of a klibanophoros' equipment?


Kassidion = helmet
katafhenion = chainmail protective of head,adjust to the helmet
klibanion (or lorikion) = cuirass
zava = chainmail shirt worn inside of klibanion
pteryges = metal/leather protection of lower torso and upper arms,adjust to klibanion
cheiropsella (/manikellia) = metal protection of arms
podopsella (/chalkotuva)= metal protection of legs
spathion = straight sword
paramerion = slightly curved sword
apelatikion (/matzoukion) = mace
tzikourion = battle axe
martzovavoulon = short metal javelin
toxon = bow



Back to Top
Count Belisarius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Magister Militum

Joined: 25-Jul-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1114
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2008 at 15:17
thank you can you tell you tell me the names of the klibnaophoros' horses armor and the name of his lance case and can you go into detail on his equipment and what was the of the klibanophoros' sabaton?  


Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)


Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2008 at 23:19
Originally posted by Count Belisarius Count Belisarius wrote:

thank you can you tell you tell me the names of the klibnaophoros' horses armor and the name of his lance case and can you go into detail on his equipment and what was the of the klibanophoros' sabaton?
 
Unfortunately we do not have a full description of the technical terms associated with the equipment of the klibanophoros like we see for ancient Greek cavalry in the writings of Xenophon, Arrian, and other authors.  The list provided by Brainstorm is quite good.  For more information you should definitely check out:
 
Eric McGeer, Sowing the Dragon's Teeth: Byzantine Warfare in the Tenth Century. Washington, D.C.: Dumbarton Oaks Press, 1995.
 
Also, in one of Ammianus Marcellinus' volumes, he gives a description of the heavy cavalry in a triumphal procession.
 
Back to Top
Count Belisarius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Magister Militum

Joined: 25-Jul-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1114
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2008 at 15:36
Thanks, also I read that manzikert saw the end of the KlibanophorosDead Cry, but I also read that Alexius Commenus revived them, is this true?   


Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)


Back to Top
Ahenobarbus View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 03-Nov-2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ahenobarbus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2008 at 20:06
Procopius, in his first book, on the first few pages, gives the ideal picture of the cavalryman of his day (6th century).
Back to Top
Count Belisarius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Magister Militum

Joined: 25-Jul-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1114
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2008 at 23:32
Thanks man. Can anyone tell me about the post manzikert cataphract?. 

Edited by Count Belisarius - 03-Aug-2008 at 00:18


Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)


Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2008 at 21:16
Originally posted by Count Belisarius Count Belisarius wrote:

Thanks man. Can anyone tell me about the post manzikert cataphract?. 
 
The sources are quite sparse about the types of cavalry that existed in the late period.  I am willing to believe that some kind of "heavy" cavalry unit operated during this time.  Instead of being supported by the state directly through a salary or estates, later kataphraktoi were must likely paid in grants of pronoia.  Depending on the size and structure of this grant, the unit would be equipped accordingly.  It was most likely not as heavily armed as in the early or Phokan periods.
 
Back to Top
Count Belisarius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Magister Militum

Joined: 25-Jul-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1114
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2008 at 23:54
Thanks amigo, I just wondered because I saw, what looked a lot like a klibanophoros in an osprey book. The man had a conical helm a chainmail aventail, chainmail hauberk and chausses, he was holding a kontos, (not sure why Angus Macbride didn't draw him with a spathion) and his horse had lamellar caparisons and a lamellar chanfron and crinet, also wouldn't he have had a bow and thureos?.     

Edited by Count Belisarius - 08-Aug-2008 at 00:24


Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)


Back to Top
Ahenobarbus View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 03-Nov-2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ahenobarbus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2008 at 15:04
Is that the illustration in the Byzantine Armies 1118-1461 title?  If so, part of the description does say that such a well-armored man would have been rather rare.  And indeed with the dwindling empire, unless a soldier found the pot o' gold at the end of the rainbow, it would have been incredibly difficult to afford such an extensive kit.
Back to Top
Count Belisarius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Magister Militum

Joined: 25-Jul-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1114
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2008 at 15:15
It did say he probably belonged to an elite guard unit but that doesn't sound too moch different from the early klibanophoroi. 


Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)


Back to Top
Ahenobarbus View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 03-Nov-2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ahenobarbus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2008 at 15:36
Very true; whereas there were probably close to 1,000 in the later 10th century, by the late empire their numbers would be much, much less.  There is probably no way to figure out how few they really were, unfortunately.  Byzantine Emperor knows a lot more about the late empire than I do, I'll let him come up with an answer! Smile
Back to Top
Nestorian View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 08-Jul-2006
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 161
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Sep-2008 at 03:20
Work in progress.
 
Basilikoi Anthropoi late 9th century. consisting of select Pharganoi, Chazaroi, Alanoi and other Tourkoi Hetaereia
 

Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign
Back to Top
Darius of Parsa View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 03-Oct-2007
Status: Offline
Points: 589
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2008 at 03:48
Very impressive Nestorian. I see you posses much artistic talent.

Edited by Darius of Parsa - 24-Sep-2008 at 03:48
What is the officer problem?
Back to Top
Count Belisarius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Magister Militum

Joined: 25-Jul-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1114
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2008 at 04:33
Pretty cool I'd love to see the finished productSmile he looks a lot like a klibnaophoros doesn't he?Smile


Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)


Back to Top
Nestorian View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 08-Jul-2006
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 161
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2008 at 03:40
Its a late 9th century Basilikoi Anthropoi.
 
They are essentially the "Emperor's men" consisting of elite soldiers drawn from native or mercenary forces such as the Hetaereia (companions). Turkic warriors were fairly prominent in the 9th century so they would most likely have dominated the regiment.
 
As you can see, a number of Central Asian influences are fairly dominant  but still essentially "Roman".
 
I know head is small, will adjust later :)
Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign
Back to Top
Count Belisarius View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Magister Militum

Joined: 25-Jul-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1114
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2008 at 19:00
I saw picture in my byzantine armies book that showed reliefs from a tenth cnetury casket on were armenian troops with cuirasses that looked similar to the old roman lorica segmenatas can anyone tell me anything about that?Smile
 
Thanks


Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)


Back to Top
akritis View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 09-Sep-2008
Location: greece
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote akritis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2008 at 12:54
Byzantine Atnanatoi 10th century  Tsimiskis
creator:akritis
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 891011>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.047 seconds.