History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Calendar   Register Register  Login Login


Forum LockedThe Middle Byzantine Military (610-1204)

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 11>
Author
Brainstorm View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 21-Sep-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 395
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Middle Byzantine Military (610-1204)
    Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 03:57
The most Glorious Era of Byzantine History.

This is a place for posting everything related to middle Byzantine period,and its military aspect.
Military organization ,tactics,strategy,arms,armor,battles,units..etc.


Back to Top
Brainstorm View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 21-Sep-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 395
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 04:27
The Centurion at the Crucifixion,presented as an officer of the Varangian Guard.
 From Nea Moni-Chios Island- 1040's.

Back to Top
Brainstorm View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 21-Sep-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 395
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 04:49
Soldiers at the Arrest of Christ,represented as Varangian Guards.(in ceremonial costumes)
Nea Moni-Chios Monastery-1040's.


Guards hold maces,axes and double-axes.

Back to Top
Reginmund View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 08-May-2005
Location: Norway
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1942
Post Options Post Options   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 07:09
Interesting, I'd like to see some more mosaics depicting the Varangian Guard.
Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum,
þeod-cyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Back to Top
Batu View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 31-Aug-2006
Location: Barad-dur
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 403
Post Options Post Options   Quote Batu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 11:01
did those byzantines conquered more land that they have already inherited from The Roman Empire?
A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari )
Back to Top
Brainstorm View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 21-Sep-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 395
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 12:10
Originally posted by Reginmund

Interesting, I'd like to see some more mosaics depicting the Varangian Guard.




sorry for the blured image.
Its a Varangian guard again (holding double axe and round shield),
from Nea Moni.

The monastery was donated by Emperor Constantinos Monomachos in 1040 ,and the mosaics were made by artists of Constantinoupolis, depicting more or less aspects of Life there.



Back to Top
Brainstorm View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 21-Sep-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 395
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 13:04
And here is a representation of a Varangian Guard.(1000-1050)



This man is of Scandinavian origin ,migrated in Kievan Rus kingdom.
The shield depicts the crow-symbol of god Odin and he holds Danish Axe.

Greaves,hand protection ,chest leather strips and pteryges ,are obviously Byzantine,borrowed by the imperial arsenal.




Back to Top
konstantinius View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 22-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 762
Post Options Post Options   Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 19:59
Nice photo!
" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."
Back to Top
konstantinius View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 22-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 762
Post Options Post Options   Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 20:20
Originally posted by Batu

did those byzantines conquered more land that they have already inherited from The Roman Empire?


I'm not sure what you mean. Justinian reconquered lost Roman lands in Africa, Italy,and Spain in the 500's but most of those were later lost to the Arabs. Heraclius pushed east against the Sassanids in the mid-600's but those gains were also lost to the Arabs. The Byzantines retook Crete, E. Anatolia and parts of Syria under Nikephorus Phokas and John Tzimiskes  in the 10th. c. and Byzantine suzerainty was imposed over Armenia. This was going to be the greatest extend of Eastern Roman territory in the post-Justinian years and smaller than the Roman Empire at its heigh, of course.
In the Balkans faltering Imperial authority during the 6th-8th c. was restored somewhat and to various degrees of succes from 850-1100 and then being lost for good post-1204.
Generally the years 680-900 are considered low-ebb. The great Iconoclastic controversy tore the byzantines internally whereas abroad the empire was besieged by enemies: Slavs had overun most of continental Greece, Bulgarians in the North, Constantinople had to withstand great sieges laid by Avaro-Slavs and Arabs. They bounce back in the 10th c. with the "Macedonian" dynasty.

 
 


Edited by konstantinius - 14-Nov-2006 at 04:56
" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."
Back to Top
Brainstorm View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 21-Sep-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 395
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 06:13


Excubitor

Elite Soldier of the imperial tagmata of Excubita/Excubitores.
His armor has many nomadic-islamic elements combined with the older roman fashion style.

His helmet is fo turanic style,and he wear a klivanion -lamelar cuirass.
Inside of this ,he wears chainmail,and outside white  "epilorikion".
He carries a round shield,a "paramerion" sword ,and holds a "tzekourion" -battle-axe.(similar to older western "frageska")

The green color of shield and mantle sign his unit.

Back to Top
Reginmund View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 08-May-2005
Location: Norway
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1942
Post Options Post Options   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 10:42
Originally posted by konstantinius

Nice photo!
 
I hate to disappoint you mate, but there are no photos of Byzantine soldiers in existence. Tongue
Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum,
þeod-cyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 14:14
Originally posted by Brainstorm

The Centurion at the Crucifixion,presented as an officer of the Varangian Guard. From Nea Moni-Chios Island- 1040's.
 
Very nice.  I have seen some of the mosaics from Nea Moni, but not this first one of the supposed Varangian.  His attire seems western with some Scandinavian influence on the trimming of his cloak and tunic.  The round shield is characteristic of the early Varangians.  Can anyone make out the inscriptions on his shield?
 
Notice the wrappings on his lower legs.  I have seen these depicted in the Osprey color plates, with the lettering monogramed onto the material.  Are these the typical cloth wrappings we see on the shins of Byzantine soldiers or are they actual leather or metal greaves?
 
Originally posted by Brainstorm

This man is of Scandinavian origin ,migrated in Kievan Rus kingdom.
The shield depicts the crow-symbol of god Odin and he holds Danish Axe.

Greaves,hand protection ,chest leather strips and pteryges ,are obviously Byzantine,borrowed by the imperial arsenal.
 
What book did these drawings come from?  They do not look like the Osprey pictures and I noticed the text on one was in Greek.  I'd be interested in trying to find these books if you can provide the reference.
 
The leather pteryges are commonly depicted on military saints and in some manuscripts and frescoes.  They harken back to the late Roman period; perhaps they had an actual function as armor and were not worn just as decoration. 
 
Notice that the Varangian of 1000-1050 has splint vambraces on his arms and lower legs.  These are interesting pieces of armor.  I have read that they were commonly made from wooden strips.  I think, possibly, that they were reinforced with a metal covering.
 
Originally posted by Brainstorm

His helmet is fo turanic style,and he wear a klivanion -lamelar cuirass.
Inside of this ,he wears chainmail,and outside white  "epilorikion".

He carries a round shield,a "paramerion" sword ,and holds a "tzekourion" -battle-axe.(similar to older western "frageska")
 
Nice!
 
Notice on the excubitor the leather (not splint) vambraces on his forearms and the "mummy" wrappings on his shins.  I wonder what the function of these wrappings was?  If the material was thick they would offer some practical protection against weapons and the elements.


Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 14-Nov-2006 at 14:19
Back to Top
Brainstorm View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 21-Sep-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 395
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 14:33
@Emperor

I m not sure that these on the shields are letters or inscription. They seem to be signs.
As for the tunic and the cloak,i would disagree with u.I think they are typically Byzantine,and his all clothing must be ceremonial.
It's also interesting the meander on the shield-ancient greek motive.
I guess the "Scandinavian nature" of the centurion, could be betrayed by his thick beard and the really big sword.(and the shield as u noticed).
The Osprey pic,comes out of this mosaic (see details of the plate)

The drawings come of a series of Books ,monographs.
Esp from the book "Vyzantinos Stratos" (Byzant. Army)-Dimitris S. Belezos by "Periskopio" editions -(its in greek)

This "mummy" wrappings are depicted quiet often in frescos.I guess it was a part of the shoe/boot ,but maybe they had a protective role as u mentioned.
-ps the Excubitor dates at 870 AD.

Back to Top
Brainstorm View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 21-Sep-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 395
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 14:41


Here is an example of these wrappings.
St.Demetrius -from church in FYROM -13th cent.
Back to Top
Brainstorm View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 21-Sep-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 395
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 02:32


Varangian Guard (?) decapitated!

(Manuscript from Mount Athos-11th century.)

The man lies dead,wearing a chainmail cuirass.His big battle axe (danish?)(the characteristic weapon of Varangians) lies beside him and he carries on his right shoulder a sword which he didn't manage to draw.(Varangians were sometimes described as "those who carry their sword on the right shoulder")
A red round shield lies on his left and his helmet on his right.
The man has beard and mustache.

All the above show that this man should be a Varangian guard.



Edited by Brainstorm - 04-Dec-2006 at 02:41
Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 20:32
Originally posted by Brainstorm

(Manuscript from Mount Athos-11th century.)
 
Wow, a very interesting illustration indeed!  In what context is the Varangian portrayed?  A battle?  Perhaps an execution?
 
Originally posted by Brainstorm

The man lies dead,wearing a chainmail cuirass.
 
Not that I am disputing you or anything, but is this not a depiction of scale mail?  It looks like the scale mail depicted in some Western frescos, or in some Byzantine depictions of Western-style armor such as that worn by Normans from Sicily.
 
Originally posted by Brainstorm

(Varangians were sometimes described as "those who carry their sword on the right shoulder")
 
Good point.
Back to Top
Brainstorm View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 21-Sep-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 395
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2006 at 01:34
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

Wow, a very interesting illustration indeed!  In what context is the Varangian portrayed?  A battle?  Perhaps an execution?

It's a vivid battle scene.Unfortunately problems-again-didnt allow me to post it.
Another interesting scene is where a horse archers shoots back-He wears a shirt similar to nomadic horse archers.


Not that I am disputing you or anything, but is this not a depiction of scale mail?  It looks like the scale mail depicted in some Western frescos, or in some Byzantine depictions of Western-style armor such as that worn by Normans from Sicily.


Yes it could be.But chainmail is also usually  depicted like this in Byzantine art,so it's not easy to decide.

Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2006 at 20:37
Originally posted by Brainstorm

It's a vivid battle scene.Unfortunately problems-again-didnt allow me to post it.
Another interesting scene is where a horse archers shoots back-He wears a shirt similar to nomadic horse archers.
 
That's too bad.  It would be wonderful to see the entire panoramic battle scene!  Why can't you post more pictures?  Is there now a limit to the number and size?
 
Back to Top
Brainstorm View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 21-Sep-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 395
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2006 at 00:44
No- a message appears :"only members with sufficient posts (or smth like this) are allowed to enter this post"
Back to Top
CPWN View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 22-Oct-2006
Location: Taiwan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
Post Options Post Options   Quote CPWN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2006 at 05:46
Middle Byzantine?
 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 11>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.066 seconds.