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Forum LockedThe Late Byzantine Military (1204-1461)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Patrinos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2008 at 12:06
Nice to find you still here ByzEmp.!
And a real one:
It is exhibited in Byzantine and Christian Museum in Athens,and belongs to Ysterobyzantine(Late) period(13th to 15th c.,height 135cm).




Again Saint Theodoros of Terwn,in Byzantine Museum of Athens,15th century.





Edited by Patrinos - 15-Sep-2008 at 12:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote akritis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2008 at 14:52
I think that this chainmail at Byzantine Museum of Athens is Othoman or persian origin.
Late Byzantine period is a very importand and it is very nice that there is a forum about it.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2008 at 22:26
Originally posted by akritis akritis wrote:

I think that this chainmail at Byzantine Museum of Athens is Othoman or persian origin.
Late Byzantine period is a very importand and it is very nice that there is a forum about it.
 
Thanks Akritis and welcome to AE.  From what I have heard there are not many pieces extant of late Byzantine armor.  Unfortunately the archaeologists of classical Greece have destroyed much of it trying to get at the ancient materials below.  Is it a prevailing attitude in Greece that the artifacts from its classical heritage are more valuable than the Byzantine ones?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2008 at 23:31
Can anyone tell me anything about the Stratiotai?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2008 at 23:45
Originally posted by Count Belisarius Count Belisarius wrote:

Can anyone tell me anything about the Stratiotai?
 
Yes, it is the Greek plural word for "soldiers."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2008 at 00:59
I meant as in the cavalry


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2008 at 19:35
Originally posted by Count Belisarius Count Belisarius wrote:

I meant as in the cavalry
 
Can you be more specific?  Despite what the developers of Medieval Total War and Rise of Nations think, there was not a specific unit (discernible from the sources) called stratiotai in the late period.  In the latter part of the middle Byzantine period (8th-10th centuries), however, there were cavalry units financed from the revenues of state military lands called stratiotika ktemata.  This might be the origin of the late Byzantine method of remuneration called pronoia or oikonomia, in the opinion of the French scholar Paul Lemerle.
 
See John Haldon and Mark Bartusis for more information.  You can access parts of their books on the Byzantine army on Google Books.


Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 16-Nov-2008 at 19:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sergeant113 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2008 at 06:27
Small pronoia (military fiefs) were occupied by stradiotai, or soldier as Byzantine Emperor mentioned, who were citizens, mercenaries and even prisoners of war. The stradiotai were the main supply of the Byzzie's declining military force, and later, after the loss of Constantinople to the Ottoman, became mercenaries known as stradiotes in western Europe. Their first service was to Venice during the Veneto-Turkish war. Later, seeing the effectiveness of these stradiotes, other Italian city states either directly employed them or hired them for training their own light cavalry troops. 

My guess is the cavalry in the Total war and rise of nations series is based more on the later mercenary than the original stradiotai :)


Edited by Sergeant113 - 11-Dec-2008 at 06:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2009 at 06:45
Originally posted by Sergeant113 Sergeant113 wrote:

Small pronoia (military fiefs) were occupied by stradiotai...
 
I would not call them "fiefs," because it brings to mind the hereditary land holdings of western medieval knights in the socio-economic phenomenon known as "feudalism."
 
The late Byzantine pronoia was not the same thing as a fief.  It was not part of something that was similar to or influenced by western feudalism.  Rather, it was a semi-institutional structure that was developed by the Komnenian and Palaiologan emperors to deal with the decline in resources and manpower from the 11th to 15th centuries.
 
It was not actual land that was owned and farmed by a lord and his peasants.  The Byzantine emperor granted the rights over tax or revenue collection of certain working peasants and buildings in return for some kind of service.  It was owned at all times by the State and was revocable by the emperor.  Also, it was only by a grant of subsequent privileges that the right became hereditary.
 
Originally posted by Sergeant113 Sergeant113 wrote:

My guess is the cavalry in the Total war and rise of nations series is based more on the later mercenary than the original stradiotai
 
Yes, the stradiotai in Rise of Nations do look rather odd in their plate armor and plumed helmets!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2009 at 13:48
The pronaiar system is a curious system. Its a hybrid of different systems and principles.
 
It is part fuedal in that it was suppose to render military service to the ruling Emperor in return for land....and the land's financial (revenue base). In some cases, it was hereditary, throwing another dimension to it.
 
It is also an informal tax farming system in that the owner is able to extract revenue, that in former times would be collected by the cetnral government, but ceded to the holder.
 
But, alas, it was a system that reflected the exigencies of the time.
 
Though retrospectively criticised, it was the best policy at that time by a seasoned and experienced ruler. Its weakness is the lack of competent monitoring or enforcement of effective military duties by the cedee.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2009 at 19:49
Originally posted by Nestorian Nestorian wrote:

Though retrospectively criticised, it was the best policy at that time by a seasoned and experienced ruler. Its weakness is the lack of competent monitoring or enforcement of effective military duties by the cedee.
 
Yes, Michael VIII and Andronikos II made effective use of pronoia grants in the late period.  I honestly think this helped the Empire survive over the next two centuries. 
 
After the transfer of the imperial seat and administration back to Constantinople in 1261, the Byzantines basically had to start over because they no longer had a concentration of power in Asia Minor.  To think what could have been done if Michael VIII had stayed at Nicaea!
 
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