History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Calendar   Register Register  Login Login


Forum LockedThe Late Byzantine Military (1204-1461)

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 17>
Author
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Late Byzantine Military (1204-1461)
    Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 18:53
Originally posted by rider

But what replaced the Guard during the Late Empire then? Just some remains of the Scholae units or what? It couldn't have been a unit from the Proionoia system.
 
Good question.  The Varangians were still around in the late period.  For example, at the opening of what is considered "the late period" (1204), the Varangians are mentioned as being on the ramparts and fiercely defending the walls of Constantinople on the sea side, against the Latins who were climbing from the ships onto the walls.
 
Later, though, references are quite scarce.  It is believed that the Varangians lost their original military significance and became parade units, much like the Scholae eventually did.
Back to Top
Gundamor View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jun-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 568
Post Options Post Options   Quote Gundamor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 19:53
When did they actually cease to exsist? I cant find much about it other then books that just stop mentioning them. They just kind of faded away.
"An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind"
Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 22:44
Originally posted by Gundamor

When did they actually cease to exsist? I cant find much about it other then books that just stop mentioning them. They just kind of faded away.
 
What books have you been looking at? (just curious) Smile
 
I will have to look and get back to you.  If I remember correctly, the French mercenary captain Bertrandon La Brocquiere (mid 15th century) mentions some palace guards comparable to the Varangians in his memoires.  He came to Constantinople as a mercenary captain of some men-at-arms sent by the Valois ruler (I think he was Valois, or it could have been the French king himself).  The context of the mentioning is where he says he saw some guards (his language qualifies them in some way to distinguish from regular guards) escorting John VIII Palaiologos' wife to mass at the Hagia Sophia.
 
Back to Top
Gundamor View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jun-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 568
Post Options Post Options   Quote Gundamor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 23:11
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor


 What books have you been looking at? (just curious)



Well I visit the library alot(everyother day)and only recent one that came to mind was The Fall of Constantinople 1453 which I'm not even sure was accurate and maybe more storyline. Another one was just about the rulers(14 rulers?) and a some that were titled like The Bzyantine Empire. Both the libraries I visit are a bit short on this topic. Maybe only 10-12 books on it. And mostly are culture and society heavy. Not my strengths of interest.     
"An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind"
Back to Top
rider View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
AE Editor & Pet Platypus

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Estonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4720
Post Options Post Options   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 06:46
Agreed. For some reason most of the Western historians tend to "specialize" always on something else than the Byzantium.
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.
Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 13:17
Originally posted by Gundamor

Well I visit the library alot(everyother day)and only recent one that came to mind was The Fall of Constantinople 1453 which I'm not even sure was accurate and maybe more storyline.
 
If you mean the one by Sir Steven Runciman, yes, it is an excellent narrative of the siege.  But there are a good deal of careless factual errors that were uncharacteristic of Runciman's work.
 
Originally posted by Gundamor

Both the libraries I visit are a bit short on this topic. Maybe only 10-12 books on it. And mostly are culture and society heavy. Not my strengths of interest.
 
Do you have access to Interlibrary Loan?  If you want some book recommendations and references on specific topics, I would be glad to provide some.  Don't worry if it is not your historical strength - I don't mind.  It is fun just talking about this stuff! Smile
 
Originally posted by rider

Agreed. For some reason most of the Western historians tend to "specialize" always on something else than the Byzantium.
 
Although I am not a professional "historian" yet (I haven't published anything), I do have other interests besides Byzantium.  It is just I am reading a lot on and studying this subject, so I post on Byzantium often.
 
Back to Top
BigL View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 30-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 817
Post Options Post Options   Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 23:50
Can you please join my new topic Prince of kiev vs byzantines for discussion  
 
I would also like to know about the famous battles between Byzantium and Avars
Back to Top
Aster Thrax Eupator View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Porphyrygenitus Augustii

Joined: 18-Jul-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1923
Post Options Post Options   Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 11:01
Did the Byzantines have legionaries in the traditional roman sense?
"Don't raise your voice - we all know how lovely it is!"
Triano, in "Mosterella" by Plautus! Read it...now!
Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2006 at 19:45
Originally posted by Earl Aster

Did the Byzantines have legionaries in the traditional roman sense?
 
Earl Aster:  Thanks for replying to my thread.  Please continue to contribute if you would like.  I don't know if you saw it, but I talked about this on the second page:
 
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

I think it is safe to say that there was an incarnation of the Roman legionnaire in the late Roman/early Byzantine period (4th-5th c.).  That is, the infantry soldier wearing something resembling the segmented armor, etc. (see the picture on the first page).  However, by the time of Justinian to Anastasius there was an influx of barbarian foederati into the Byzantine army.  Even before that too, after the disaster of Adrianople.  I think it was during this time that the old legionnaire was phased out for good.
 
Originally posted by BigL

Can you please join my new topic Prince of kiev vs byzantines for discussion  
 
I would also like to know about the famous battles between Byzantium and Avars
 
I saw that you had posted this recently and it looks quite interesting.  When I get a chance here, aside from schoolwork, I will join the discussion.  Thanks for inviting me!  Big smile
 
Back to Top
Sikander View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 12-Aug-2004
Location: Portugal
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 198
Post Options Post Options   Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 18:48

As far as I've read so far (David Nicolle; Ian Heath, et al.), late Roman (Byzantine) equipment would reflect more Turkish influence than anything else.

According to some drawings made by an Italian in the mid 15th cent, the Emperor's retinue was armed and dressed in the Turkish manner (small cavalry bow, quiver and sabre; long coat; and the horse harness - all in Turkish fashion), the only distinctive difference being a brimmed hat like the one portrait by our friend "Byzantine Emperor".

As for Western equipment (more than the way of dressing), that is more than probable, as even the Serbian and Bulgarians had that kind of equipment (look at the "dog-face helmets" in the Museums of Kazanlak and Veliko Tarnovo, Bulgaria). Complete body armour could as was surely used by high ranking nobles like Constantine XI.

The Varangian Guard isue is interesting. In the early 13th cent. , both the original Rus and the Anglo-Saxons had abandoned the axe as a weapon. By that time, however, the Varangians were still armed with an axe. The only explanation for this is to assume that Roman State furnished the palatine unit with State-isued axes. Interesting, don't you think?
 
And as for the the armour represented in the Icons, well, I've seen 16th -19th icons and they ALL represent Demetrius, Georgius and all hose "warrior saints" with the same kind of equipment, namely the klibanion. I doubt that the klibanion could have survibed to the 12th century, much less to the 14th/th centuries.
 
Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 19:17
Originally posted by Sikander

As far as I've read so far (David Nicolle; Ian Heath, et al.), late Roman (Byzantine) equipment would reflect more Turkish influence than anything else.

According to some drawings made by an Italian in the mid 15th cent, the Emperor's retinue was armed and dressed in the Turkish manner (small cavalry bow, quiver and sabre; long coat; and the horse harness - all in Turkish fashion)(...)

Very observant!  The Florentine artist Pisanello did indeed make some drawings of the emperor John VIII Palaiologos, the patriarch Joseph II, and the Byzantine retinue attending the Council of Florence in 1439.  He also cast a medallion of the emperor and used is likeness for some royal characters in a few Biblical paintings he was commissioned to do.
 
I agree that there was undoubtedly a Turkish influence on Byzantine arms in the late period.  A few emperors preferred Turkish mercenaries to any other kind in the civil wars.  The medallion of John VIII on horseback depicts him with a Turkish style bow and quiver and with the long coat and distinctive hat. 
 
However, I do think the Late Byzantine Army 1118-1461 book by Nicolle takes things a bit too far in using this lightly armored/armed representation of the emperor as the basis for the picture of 15th century Byzantine soldiers.  I would agree that Trapezuntine soldiers might have been armed this way, for Trebizond was farther East, isolated from the rest of Byzantium, and had been open to direct Turkish influence the longest.  Soldiers of Constantinople and the Morea probably had heavier armor like the Latins, along with some Turkish influence, for example, the adoption of the scimitar (see icon of St. Merkourios at Ochrid).
 
Originally posted by Sikander

(...)the only distinctive difference being a brimmed hat like the one portrait by our friend "Byzantine Emperor".
 
Big smile
 
Some historians say that these wonderful hats had an eastern or Turkish origin.  Either Pisanello or another Italian painter was hired by the Grand Komnenoi of Trebizond to paint a giant mural in a palace.  The mural depicts the Trapezuntines in battle with the Turks.  All the Trapezuntine soldiers are wearing the disctinctive coats and hats, and are fighting on horseback with bows and curved swords.  If anyone can find a picture of this magnificent painting, please post it here.
 
Originally posted by Sikander

The Varangian Guard isue is interesting. In the early 13th cent. , both the original Rus and the Anglo-Saxons had abandoned the axe as a weapon. By that time, however, the Varangians were still armed with an axe. The only explanation for this is to assume that Roman State furnished the palatine unit with State-isued axes. Interesting, don't you think?
 
Interesting point!  It could be, as was usually the case, that the continued use of axes by the Varangians was an example of the conservative outlook that the Byzantines had towards military (and other areas) adaptation and change.  While soldiers in the homelands of the Varangians stopped using axes, the Byzantinized Varangians held on to them.  As to whether or not the state furnished them with the weapons, I am not sure.  I believe that some of the sources describe their axes as looking like silver.  The Byzantines had expert gold- and silversmiths who could have produced such weapons.
 
Originally posted by Sikander

And as for the the armour represented in the Icons, well, I've seen 16th -19th icons and they ALL represent Demetrius, Georgius and all hose "warrior saints" with the same kind of equipment, namely the klibanion. I doubt that the klibanion could have survibed to the 12th century, much less to the 14th/th centuries.
 
What leads you to doubt that the klibanion survived in practical use into the 14th and 15th centuries?
 
Back to Top
rider View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
AE Editor & Pet Platypus

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Estonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4720
Post Options Post Options   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 07:02
Originally posted by Sikander

In the early 13th cent. , both the original Rus and the Anglo-Saxons had abandoned the axe as a weapon.
 
Really? Nevski, I am quite sure about it, that he used axes to beat the Swedes at Neva.
 
And later too, Skandinavians used the axe into the 14th century.
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.
Back to Top
Digenis View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 22-Nov-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 694
Post Options Post Options   Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jul-2006 at 15:12
Originally posted by Sikander

As for Western equipment (more than the way of dressing), that is more than probable, as even the Serbian and Bulgarians had that kind of equipment (look at the "dog-face helmets" in the Museums of Kazanlak and Veliko Tarnovo, Bulgaria). Complete body armour could as was surely used by high ranking nobles like Constantine XI.

 


Here is one mid 14th century depict of "March" in a manuscript from Athos.


The man wears a western type helmet,but also a klibanion cuirass.
Back to Top
rider View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
AE Editor & Pet Platypus

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Estonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4720
Post Options Post Options   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jul-2006 at 18:08
Hmmh. I see many questions here (not the last ones) about the Early Military. Should have a separate thread. Wait for a second, just had different issues in my mind:
 
1) Is there any evidence of the Kataphraktos or Klibinarios unit being used after 1204 or even in the late 12th century? I have read from somewhere that the expense of the units was so high that they were pretty much all disbanded.
 
2) How did the Trebizondian Military differ from Byzantian? There were in the Early Period such units as Trebizond Archers, weren't there? So after the creation of the Empire of Trebizond, those units must have belonged only to it's variety and the Byzantines didn't use such units any more?
 
3) Was the use of Greek Fire forgotten after 1204? I haven't heard or seen of any evidence of it's usage in the Later Empire.
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.
Back to Top
Sikander View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 12-Aug-2004
Location: Portugal
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 198
Post Options Post Options   Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2006 at 17:10
Yes, I concede that "Byzantine Emperor" may be wright when he says that
"soldiers of Constantinople and the Morea probably had heavier armor like the Latins". Those places were open to Western influence, namely to the Italians and the Catalonians, not to mention the remnants of the "Latins" (the "Latinikon", if I'm not mistaken) so Western armour would be used along with native and Turkish types.
 
In the same line of though I can only suppose (but not confirm) that the klibanion, an allmost 1000 year old piece of equipment would be replaced by simpler mail and cuirases, namely of Western origin, that were avaiable. But I can perfectly be wrong.
 
As for the axes, yes, it is true that this sort of weapon continued to be used in Scandinavia (and even Russia, and so forth) but eventualy it was replaced by "handier", though more expensive, weapons like the sword. The fact is that the big battle axe although being an unexpensive and dreadfull weapon is also unbalanced. Later Varangians were of Saxon-English origin and, as far as I know, there's no sign of a large usage of axes in Britain from the early 13th century onwards.
 
The Trapezuntine army was originaly made of Caucasians (Lazes, Armenians, etc.) because the aunt of the first Trapezuntine Emperor, of the Komnenoi stock, was a Caucasian queen (don't remember her name, sorry).
Their's was a very small army: the cavalry amounted to a few hundred men, at first armed with lances and then with swords and bows, like the Turks. The infantry was mostly light. Later on (early 15th c.) they got some guns. According to some souces (a Castillian or Aragonese diplomat - or perhaps a Papal envoy of "spanish" origin) the Trapezuntines dressed like Turks, fought after the turkish style but were better than the Turks :)  The Trapezuntine cavalry was greatly feared.
 
I know nothing about the "Greek fire" and I'm also looking forward to see anything about the interesting isue of the cataphraktoi/klibanorophoi post 1204.
Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 00:00
Originally posted by rider

2) How did the Trebizondian Military differ from Byzantian? There were in the Early Period such units as Trebizond Archers, weren't there? So after the creation of the Empire of Trebizond, those units must have belonged only to it's variety and the Byzantines didn't use such units any more?
 
The Trapezuntine army in the early period of its existence (1204-1261), if there indeed was one, was probably very similar to the Byzantine army of the late early 13th century and to the subsequent Nicean army after the breakup of the Empire.
 
As for the infamous "Trebizond Archer" of MTW, I don't think there was such a specialized unit.  Soldiers who came from Cappadocia and the Caucasus mountains were traditionally famous for their archery skills; perhaps these were the inspiration for the "Trebizond Archers."
 
Trebizond's later history and military development was linked closely with that of eastern Turkoman tribes and less with the Byzantine Empire itself.  The Grand Komnenoi often allied with the Turkish "White Sheep" tribe against both the Mongols and the Ottomans.  Perhaps this is where the Trapezuntine army was influenced towards horse archery.  At any rate, the army was very small as Sikander pointed out and not much is known about their specific armament and tactics. 
 
Does anyone know the painting I mentioned, that an Italian artist did circa 1462 of Trapezuntines battling Ottomans? 
 
Trebizond is a fascinating aspect of Byzantine history.  Please continue to discuss it here.  I would be especially interested in their later military history, late 14th century-1461.
 
Originally posted by Sikander

The Trapezuntine army was originaly made of Caucasians (Lazes, Armenians, etc.) because the aunt of the first Trapezuntine Emperor, of the Komnenoi stock, was a Caucasian queen (don't remember her name, sorry).
Their's was a very small army: the cavalry amounted to a few hundred men, at first armed with lances and then with swords and bows, like the Turks. The infantry was mostly light. Later on (early 15th c.) they got some guns. According to some souces (a Castillian or Aragonese diplomat - or perhaps a Papal envoy of "spanish" origin) the Trapezuntines dressed like Turks, fought after the turkish style but were better than the Turks :)  The Trapezuntine cavalry was greatly feared.
 
Please tell more!  I think I know the Spanish diplomat you are talking about.  Was it Clavijo?  I have not yet been able to look at his account of late Byzantium and Trebizond.  What does it say specifically about their adoption of firearms?
 
Someone really needs to post a picture of that painting.  There is a crappy black-and-white reproduction of it in the late Byzantine army Osprey book.  I doubt it would scan well so that we can see the details.  It shows the Trapezuntines to be very similar in dress and armament to the Turks.
 
Originally posted by Sikander

As for the axes, yes, it is true that this sort of weapon continued to be used in Scandinavia (and even Russia, and so forth) but eventualy it was replaced by "handier", though more expensive, weapons like the sword. The fact is that the big battle axe although being an unexpensive and dreadfull weapon is also unbalanced. Later Varangians were of Saxon-English origin and, as far as I know, there's no sign of a large usage of axes in Britain from the early 13th century onwards.
 
It could also be a matter of primary and secondary use of weapons.  The Osprey books depict Varangians with the characteristic axes in hand and with either a sword or short-sword/dagger as a side arm.  So, going along with my initial suggestion of the Varangians adopting Byzantine conservatism towards military things, perhaps they hung on to their awe-inspiring axes and used swords as secondary weapons or sidearms.
 
As for how long the Varangian Guard lasted, I found some more clues when reading Pseudo-Kodinos.  He was a 14th century writer who composed a survey of court procedures and hierarchy.  His work also includes a good deal of information on military functions.  He does describe the Varangians as still fulfilling at least a ceremonial role as guards of imperial persons in processions.  As for whether or not at this point they still fought in battle is pretty much unknown and unlikely.
 
Originally posted by Sikander

In the same line of though I can only suppose (but not confirm) that the klibanion, an allmost 1000 year old piece of equipment would be replaced by simpler mail and cuirases, namely of Western origin, that were avaiable. But I can perfectly be wrong.
 
Call me a romanticist, but I am still not entirely convinced that the klibanion died out by the 14th and 15th centuries.  Practically speaking, the klibanion coupled with a chainmail shirt underneath (see the icon of Niketas below) provides as much protection for the body as plate armor.  Byzantine heavy cavalry units usually wore at least 2 layers of chain over the face and mask too, with just the eyes exposed.  If there was anything that would lead me to doubt its survival, it would be the late empire's poverty and inability to fincance the construction and upkeep of this armor.
 
 
Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 00:10
Originally posted by Digenis

Here is one mid 14th century depict of "March" in a manuscript from Athos(...)The man wears a western type helmet,but also a klibanion cuirass.
 
Cool!  Thanks for posting some images, Digenis.  I have not seen this particular manuscript illumination before.  It is interesting to see this combination of western and Byzantine armor.  I have not seen this kind of helmet paired with Byzantine armor.  There are some other western-type helmets (hats) on Byzantine soldiers in some pictures that I have seen, but not one that is made out of plate material that covers most of the head like this one.
 
Which monastery on Athos did it come from?
 
Back to Top
rider View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
AE Editor & Pet Platypus

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Estonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4720
Post Options Post Options   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 05:02
The picture you are talking about is very hard to find. Indeed it is. Do you know the name of the painter?
 
It seems to me that the Trebizondian Archers were indeed such unit as the Chivalry: Total War Modification makers have a great research tea<m and they have found something about it, and have said that no ahistorical units they will not include so I believe such had to exist.
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.
Back to Top
Sikander View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 12-Aug-2004
Location: Portugal
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 198
Post Options Post Options   Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 12:37
"Please tell more!  I think I know the Spanish diplomat you are talking about.  Was it Clavijo?  I have not yet been able to look at his account of late Byzantium and Trebizond.  What does it say specifically about their adoption of firearms?"
 
BINGO!!! It was Clavijo all right!
Here goes some bibliography about the Trapezuntine subject, and the author of a text on it.
 

BIBLIOGRAPHY

1. Barker Phil-Scott Richard Bodley, DBM, Army Lists, Book 4: 1071 AD TO 1500 AD, WRG, 2nd edition, March 1999, p. 34.

2. Bryar A., The Littoral of the Empire of Trebizond in two fourteenth century Portolano maps, File of Pontos, XXIV(1961), pp. 97-127.

3. Bryer Anthony A.M., The Empire of Trebizond and the Pontos, 1980.

4. Euaggelides Tr., History of Pontic Trebizond, Athens.

5. Heath Ian, Armies of the Middle Ages, volume 2, WRG, pp. 23-25 and pp. 131-133.

6. Heath Ian-McBride Angus (translation into the Greek language by Papathanases Helias), The last Byzantine armies (1118-1461 AD), "Combatants" series, 3, Free Thinking Publishing House, Athens, 1996.

7. History of the Hellenic Nation, Book IX, Byzantine Hellenism(Middle Byzantine and Late Byzantine years), Athenian Publishing House, Athens, 1970, pp. 325-335.

8. Lampsides Od., How did Trebizond fall, File of Pontos, XVII (1952), pp. 15-54.

9. Lampsides Od., Opinions about the state of the Great Komnenoi, File of Pontos, XXIV(1961), pp. 14-34.

10. Lymperopoulos Vasileios Ch., The Byzantine Pontos, The Empire of Trebizond (1204-1461), Creation Publishing House, Athens.

11. Miller W., Trebizond, the last Greek empire, London, 1926.

12. Nikoloudes Nikolaos, The slow death of Byzantium and the problem of the foreign assistance, Military History, issue 33, pp. 26-35, Athens.

13. Panagiotopoulos Chrestos-Anagnostakes Helias, The Greek-Turkisk conflict in Asia Minor during the Middle Ages (1040-1461), Military History, issue 42, pp. 40-49, Athens.

14. Skalieres G.K., The Empire of Trebizond, Free Thinking Publishing House,editio altera, Athens, 1995.

15. Vakalopoulos Apostolos E., Origins of the Greek Nation: the Byzantine period, 1204-1461, 1970.

16. Vasiliev A.E., The foundation of the Empire of Trebizond, Speculum, XI(1936), pp. 3-37.

17. Vasiliev A.E., The Empire of Trebizond in history and literature, Byzantion, XV (1940-1941), pp. 316-377.

Sokrates Krakras,

Professor of Ancient Greek and Latin Literature,

Private school "Paideia"

e-mail: demofilos1@hotmail.com

 
 
"Someone really needs to post a picture of that painting.  There is a crappy black-and-white reproduction of it in the late Byzantine army Osprey book.  I doubt it would scan well so that we can see the details.  It shows the Trapezuntines to be very similar in dress and armament to the Turks."
 
Maybe, just maybe, I can that for us. I have a Turkish friend, he' a tourist guide and so he may have it.
Back to Top
Byzantine Emperor View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios

Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1804
Post Options Post Options   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 22:06
Originally posted by rider

The picture you are talking about is very hard to find. Indeed it is. Do you know the name of the painter?
 
I *think* it is by Pisanello; however, it might be after the time he was working.  Pisanello was doing his drawings and castings of John VIII and company in 1439.  The painting was supposedly done in 1462.
 
Originally posted by rider

It seems to me that the Trebizondian Archers were indeed such unit as the Chivalry: Total War Modification makers have a great research tea<m and they have found something about it, and have said that no ahistorical units they will not include so I believe such had to exist.
 
The Trebizond Archers were part of the original game, not a mod.  I will have to respectfully disagree with you about their historical accuracy.  There are so many other units they could have chosen that are attested in the sources - Mourtatoi, Tourkopouloi, Tzangatores.  All of these are late Byzantine archery units of some kind that are mentioned in documentary and chronicle sources.
 
Originally posted by Sikander

BINGO!!! It was Clavijo all right!
Here goes some bibliography about the Trapezuntine subject, and the author of a text on it.
 
Clap
 
Do you remember if Clavijo says that Trapezuntines used the gunpowder weapons effectively?  Did these weapons include both artillery and handguns?
 
I found a obscure website once about Trebizond and this looks like the bibliography from it.  Most of the sources (Bryer, Vasiliev, Vakalopoulos, Miller) I have read or looked at.  They do not, sadly, say much about the army.  The other works by Greek authors are in modern Greek and would take me forever to get through.  Can either of you read modern Greek?
 
Originally posted by Sikander

Maybe, just maybe, I can that for us. I have a Turkish friend, he' a tourist guide and so he may have it.
 
PLEASE do! Smile  That would be awesome.
 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 17>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.