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Forum LockedThe Hellenicity of the “barbarian” Macedonians

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andrew-MK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2009 at 22:08
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/gandeto.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2009 at 22:11
Originally posted by Andrew-MK Andrew-MK wrote:

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/gandeto.html



Sure...Gandeto is as reliable as Greek Liakopoulos. LOL


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2009 at 00:03
You didn't get my point...

What i ment is that you'd better checking out academic works and express your understanding with your own words, instead of quoting websites of questionable objectivity.

What i have been talking here, in my last posts is summarized by a forgotten book published in the city you live in.

Živa Antika: Univerzitet vo Skopje Filozofski fakultet. Seminar na klasična filologija. Društvo za antički studii na SRM, 1993.








PS: Liakopoulos is not a reliable academic. So the equation with Gandetto was not a compliment for him. I'd group them together easily.


Edited by Flipper - 29-Jan-2009 at 00:08


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2009 at 15:04
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

Nobody underestimates them. In the case of Scythia & Black Sea coast, the comparison is still unfair:

a) The inscriptions are still in the Greek centres radius
b) The amount is not limited at all, but still not comparable (many of those inscriptions are in Latin)
c) the geographic distribution of material culture is not as vast and do not cover equal periods as Emathia, Pieria and the Pindus chain.
d) Kyanochaites, Dromichaites etc sound more as "nicknames" rather than real names of larger geographic distribution. In Greece proper the name is mentioned once here in a list containing many a number of non Greeks.
e) There're no accounts of connecting Scythians/Dacians/Thracians with Greeks. However, there are acounts of half-Greek - half-Scythian people who speak 2 languages (Herodotus, Melpomene) and have Greek customes: "For the fact is that the Geloni were anciently Greeks, who, being driven out of the factories along the coast, fled to the Budini and took up their abode with them. They still speak a language half Greek, half Scythian". The modern equivalent of those people would be the Marianoupolitan Greek speakers of Ukraine.

and more points can be mentioned...
But you still do ...
a) The inscriptions are not only in the Greek center radius. a1) We know from accounts like Ovid's that barbarians were walking the streets of these Greek cities, we even know that barbarian languages were spoken there on daily basis considering Ovid could learn such a language and write poems in it, and yet none of the inscriptions found in these cities is written in one of these barbarian languages a2) the inscriptions were found not only in the urban center, but also in the hinterland, in villages, temples, fortifications, etc. It was a Greek linguistic and cultural space (if you want an analogy is this forum today as an English linguistic space)
b) I believe the amount is comparable. We can count the inscriptions city by city if you want (I already provided links to some collections, I can bring even more details). Many important remote Greek colonies produced more inscriptions than settlements in the mainland (and that is true also for Macedonia). Most inscriptions in these cities are in Greek, from the "Latin inscriptions" many are actually bilingual Greek-Latin inscriptions, but most important, for the period in question (Ancient Macedon) all the inscriptions were in Greek.
c) The geographical distribution is also vast and cover long periods. Many north and western Pontic Greek colonies had a life of ~1 millenium (roughly from 7-6th century BC until the early Byzantine times, though some of them survived or were re-populated in the Middle Ages) and they had vast hinterlands, some of them comparable or even larger than the Macedonian regions you mentioned.
d) And Demosthenes was perhaps also a nickname. Why would a barbarian have a Greek nick-name if he couldn't speak Greek? A nick-name assumes that the also the one having it also the ones surrounding him and calling him as such understand what that nick-name means. Moreover, we know that Dromichaites married Lysimachos' daughter. Having a Greek nick-name and marrying a Greek woman, I say he spoke also Greek (besides his own language and whatever others). And yet he lived in his own non-Greek city, king of a barbarian kingdom. Now if even the barbarians could have Greek names and speak Greek, how would you make the difference between a genuine Greek and a Hellenizing barbarian?
e) Not really. If by accounts you mean genealogical legends (like the descedency from Hellen), then yes, you're right. But otherwise you're not. The Greek mythology has Thracian heroes and kings (Diomedes) and gods (Orpheus). Thrace (as Macedonia) became a Greek region and province (see Thraki today). The other regions (Scythia,  southern Italy, etc.) were too far away, I guess. The connection is even stronger than that, as many of these barbarians eventually became Greeks. Let me give you an example. In Peiraieus (Attica) there was an important community of Thracians. In the festivals of Bendis, there were two distinct processions: of Athenians and of Thracians. However after some centuries this Thracian community disappeared and instead remained mostly Greeks (as it is the case also today).
Question with multiple choices to answer, what happened with those Thracians:
- they were exterminated by their xenophobic Greek neighbours
- epidemies decimated the non-Greeks from the city
- they decided to run away and spread all over
- they were culturally and linguistically assimilated and they became Greeks
 
The northern Pontic coast gives virtually only Greek epigraphy. Whatever Scythian or half-Greek/half-Scythian people lived there, in inscriptions they wrote only Greek.
 
Quote 2 or 20, i'm half Greek and still qualify as a Greek today. Demosthenes was half Scythian but was the leader of the Athenians. The question is if a person labeled "Scythian" ever participated or even worse, being elected in national councils.
 If the Macedonians from the Classical age were Greeks only for 2 generations (and not for 20), then obviously they weren't Greeks in the Homeric age or whatever immemorial times. Like Thracians and many other barbarians they could have been also Hellenized.
 
Quote Mostly yes...But Macedonians write their personal names already in the late 7th and early 6th century BC. Moreover, allow me to use Borzas logic and say that there must have been ealier inscriptions we're not aware of. The usage of ϝ and ϟ shows, that Macedonians adopted the Greek alphabet in a very early stage and while other Greek might still been illiterate or using an older writting system.
The Greek colonies with arguably mixed barbarian-Greek population have Greek names and epigraphy since 7-6th centuries BC, as well.
As for those characters, it depends, as it was not only one Greek alphabet. It depends what they represent (some letters, digamma included, had also numerical values), in what language/dialect the inscription is written (some Greek dialects like Attic or Ionic lost the 'w' sound, but some didn't). One thing these inscriptions will never prove is that the language of the inscriptions was the only language spoken there.
 
Quote For the areas I've been speaking about (Pieria, Emathia, Pindus) there are many Mycenaean settlements, including the city of Aiani, cementaries and other smaller centers. There are currently loads of new bibliography about Mycenaean precense in Macedonia and Northern Thessaly.
This so-called "presence in Macedonia" is actually a small corner of it (south-western), along the Haliakmon river (Pieria, Elimeia, etc.). Most of Macedonia (including Pella, but also Mygdonia, Bisaltia, Chalkidike, Bottike, etc.) was not Mycenaean.
Moreover many non-Greek/Thracian tribes are mentioned in these areas (Mygdones, Edoni, Bryges/Brygoi?, etc.). Your map shows settlements by chronology, it does not give any cultural identification. Do you have any kind of evidence the inhabitants of those "stars" and "squares" were Greeks? Here's that map I talked about in my previous post (the book is published in 2007, edited by a Greek scholar, the map comes from a chapter authored by a Greek scholar). As you can see Macedonia is mostly outside the Mycenean civilization:
 
 
 
 
On Macedonian language and Greekness, here's a small article/essay from livius.org:
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 09:35

Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

 On Macedonian language and Greekness, here's a small article/essay from livius.org:

http://www.livius.org/maa-mam/macedonia/macedonia.html

 

This article has many clashes such as

 

....It is also certain that the Macedonian language became increasingly hellenized.Evidence for the pronunciation of Macedonian in the second half of the fourth century can be found in the cuneiform texts from Babylon. If Macedonian was still unaspirated and voiced when Alexander the Great conquered the Persian Empire, the Babylonian scribes would have spelled the name of the king's brother, called Philippos in Greek sources, something like Bi-líp+ending. However, the first syllable is always Pi, which also represents a sound like /vi/. This suggests that the Macedonians had began  to aspire their consonants and were losing voice. The name Berenike (the Macedonian equivalent of Greek Pherenike) may also have been pronounced according to the Greek fashion, because it is rendered in Latin as Veronica.

 

The name Philippos(Φίλιππος), and Macedonian names in general in which the first component is φιλ, are written more frequently with φ from the beginn­ing of the written tradition; also, that φ and not β occurs in:

 

άμφοτερός, άρφύς, Βουκεφάλας, φάλαγξ, Φόβος, Φυλακαί and φύλαξ; χ and not γ in: άγχαρμος, διμάχαι, λόχος,-οχος, Πολυπέρχων, Χαρικλής and Χάρων; θ and not δ in ζέρεθρον, Θαΰλος Θούριδες and Πείθων.

 

Those who oppose the view that elements of Macedonian were Greek argue, of course, that the versions with φ, θ, χ, represent Macedonian names transmitted in Greek texts, and also names and words borrowed by the Macedonians from the Greeks. If the evidence of the Greek texts is ex­cluded, on the grounds that it is untrustworthy, then excep­tion cannot be made for those passages which attest to β, δ, γ in place of φ, θ, χ. If these latter are not excluded, and it is thus conceded that the Greek authors rendered the Macedonian pronunciation correctly by writing Βίλιππος etc., then it is illegitimate to assert that the versions with φ, θ, χ are errors. Furthermore, the spelling Φίλιππος is not attested solely in non-Macedonian texts; it also occurs on coins of Philip II, and on Macedonian arrows, and tiles of the same period.

 

It would be curious if the coins issued by the Macedonian state did not accurately reflect the national pronunciation. Let us concede, however, that Philip insisted that his name be written with Φ, since he had established the Attic dialect as the official language of the state: this explanation might account for the phonetic form of the royal name on the coinage, but not also on arrows and tiles. The hypothesis that Macedonian names and words having φ, θ, χ in place of β, δ, γ are borrowed from Greek has properly been countered with the hypothesis that this is unacceptable in the case of words like άρφύς, which is otherwise unknown; άγχαρμον, which had fallen into disuse in the rest of Greece; ζέρεθρον, which was used in the isolated region of Arcadia; χάρων, which in Macedonia was not used to mean 'Charon' but 'lion'.

 

Two conclusions emerge:

1) the pronunciation of the ancient bh, gh, dh as β, γ, δ, was not universal throughout Macedonia, but occurred alongside the pronunciation φ, χ, θ

2) the pronunciation φ, χ, θ appears in some words which could not have been borrowed by the Macedonians from a Greek people. In the light of these conclusions, we must look for some other explanation of the appearance of β, γ, δ in Macedonia.

 

 
 
 


Edited by akritas - 30-Jan-2009 at 09:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 12:52
Akritas,
 
Your conclusions are in disagreement with several scholars, not only with that essay. Sticking to the same A History of Ancient Greek (2007), in the chapter about the Macedonian dialect, A. Panayotou says (p. 439), about the Macedonian b, d, g: "most linguists and philologists considered this as an absolutely fundamental feature, which distinguished Macedonian from all the other Greek dialects - including Mycenaean Greek - because it indicated a different evolution of the consonants in the phonological system of Macedonian" and further refutes the view of "other scholars" believing this "difference reflects evolution within Greek" eventually suggesting that "It might be simpler to assume that the names manifesting  this feature are substratum relics of a tribe which lived in the region and was linguistically assimilated". In other words, according to this view, the presence of b, d, g reflects another language which was assimilated by Greek dialects in Macedonia.
 
Several other scholarly views are skeptical about Ancient Macedonian being just another dialect of Greek and are open to different intepretations, according to the evidence. For instance, Brian D. Joseph, focused on Balkan languages, gives the following on Ancient Macedonian:
"There is some dispute as to whether Ancient Macedonian (the native language of Philip and Alexander), if it has any special affinity to Greek at all, is a dialect within Greek (see below) or a sibling language to all of the known Ancient Greek dialects."
"The slender evidence is open to different interpretations, so that no definitive answer is really possible but most likely, Ancient Macedonian was not simply an Ancient Greek dialect on a par with Attic or Aeolic."
 
Now turning to your arguments, we don't have enough evidence to conclude that the allegedly Macedonian words and names with φ, χ, θ were not initially pronounced with β, γ, δ. Also it my be that deaspiration and voicing to have been distinct phenomena and also conditioned by a phonetic context (as many sound changes are). However, the ancient Greek authors (Plutarch and later authors, mostly Byzantine) testify the Macedonians did have this pronounciation. Of course, you may argue that these authors (undoubtely Greek speakers and knowing the Greek pronounciation) lied or exaggerated, of course, it is possible. But your conclusions do not emerge as swiftly as you suggested.
 
If the Macedonian sounds were initially β, γ, δ, then the occurence of Macedonian names and words in Greek texts with φ, χ, θ are by no means errors, but Hellenization, as that article called it, pronounciation "according to the Greek fashion". In some cases they could have borrowed entirely some words, in some other cases they could have borrowed only the pronounciation. Similarly, the presence of Greek words with β, γ, δ instead of φ, χ, θ into Macedonian could be as well loanwords adapted to Macedonian pronounciation.
 
As I have said earlier in the thread, many "barbarian" regions produced written testimonies (of all kinds - seals, tiles, pots, epitaphs, you name it) only in Greek and Latin. Unless most of the ancient Europe was populated only by Greeks and Latins, one must accept that Macedonians writing in Greek does not prove their original, native language was a Greek dialect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 18:30
Originally posted by Chibuldios Chibuldios wrote:


a) The inscriptions are not only in the Greek center radius.


So, will you find them in greater numbers all over Scythia? Do you find them in remote locations? In Macedonia you find one inscription for every rock you turn over, even if that rock is in an isolated location up in the mountains.

Quote
Now if even the barbarians could have Greek names and speak Greek, how would you make the difference between a genuine Greek and a Hellenizing barbarian?


From a very quick search: http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=183977&bookid=231&region=6&subregion=0

Ἄρῃ καὶ Ἀφροδίτῃ ἐπὶ Βοράσπω Βάβου ἄρχοντ(ος)

Boraspo is not a Greek name.
Babos/-as = someone who speak inarticuly (verb babazo, speak confusely), which means this Archon called Boraspo is a such speaker or simply a foreign leader.

http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=183986&bookid=231&region=6&subregion=0

Ῥησκουπόριδι is not a greek name and is a King of the Sauromatae.

Χοφράζ̣μου Φορ̣γ̣αβ̣ά̣κο̣υ̣ is definetely not a Greek name, but after Βασιλείδης Θεον̣είκου is mentioned as hellenarchon (leader of the greeks).

I think it is still pretty easy to determine a Scythian from a Greek. A Hellenized Scythian maybe not ofcourse, but in any case, you can see that Greeks do stick out whenever opposed to Scythians.







Quote
Not really. If by accounts you mean genealogical legends (like the descedency from Hellen


No I mean, historical accounts like Herodotus and Strabo. Strabo never said "Εστίν ουν Ελλάς η Σκυθία" (Scythia is a part of Hellas) which he did for Macedonia, nor did Herodotus assure us that the Scythians were of Greek descend. He does say that though for the Gileki, but mentions they are half Scythians and talk a mixed language.


Quote
 If the Macedonians from the Classical age were Greeks only for 2 generations (and not for 20), then obviously they weren't Greeks in the Homeric age or whatever immemorial times. Like Thracians and many other barbarians they could have been also Hellenized.


I was speaking about my self there Smile and what is considered now. I dunno if I would qualify as Greek back then.

Ofcourse they could have been Hellenized and that's the other end of the whole debate. However, I have the following to comments on that.

There was no such thing as a Greek race from the beginning and the term "proto-Greek" should correctly apply to the language, not the people. The people are mello-Greeks (people that will share common language, culture and religion in the future) is we want to be correct. Those people was a result of a clash of cultures that met at sometime between 3200 and 2000 BC (let others decide those dates) in the Balkans.

Now, the question is when can we speak of Hellenization? Is this Hellenization?

ἦσαν οἱ Πελασγοὶ βάρβαρον γλῶσσαν ἱέντες. εἰ τοίνυν ἦν καὶ πᾶν τοιοῦτο τὸ Πελασγικόν, τὸ Ἀττικὸν ἔθνος ἐὸν Πελασγικὸν ἅμα τῇ μεταβολῇ τῇ ἐς Ἕλληνας καὶ τὴν γλῶσσαν μετέμαθε


the Pelasgians used to speak a Barbarian language. If therefore all the Pelasgian race was such as these, then the Attic race, being Pelasgian, at the same time when it changed and became Hellenic, unlearnt also its language.

We know Pelasgians are autochthonus people, from which Ionians like Athenians descended from. Were the Athenians Hellenized people, considering that they were probably some of the earliest Greek speakers?

Let's say they were litterarly Hellenized...By whom? The descendands of Hellen who lived in Thessaly? Are the Thessalians the first Greeks? Pelasgia (Land of the Pelasgians) if you look at the map, is exactly (Thessalian Phthiotis) at the area where Hellen grew up and they are a part of the Thessalian race (SEG 34:558).

Let's assume yes...So, the first Greeks were formed in Thessaly. Surely, what ever cause that development did not simply land from space right? I guess Dimini Cultures were living there and some Bubanj-Hum culture invaders entered the area. Obviously, the BBH people came from North as the material culture suggests.

Since, BBH are the people responsible for the creation of the Greco-Phrygian group and we know that they lived in the area of northern Macedonia, it is highly unlikely, that the simply emptied the whole area. Those who arrived in Thessaly, must have been speakers of some proto-Greek language, which took complete form when they met the natives(anatolian? i'm thinking of Renfrews theory) of Thessaly.

I hope you get my point. If we speak of Hellenization, can we go as far as unlimited back in time? The Macedonians Hellenized more people than any other Greek group. Did other hellenized people do that?

My point from the begining is that all Greeks at different time periods entered a process of getting a similar speech, similar culture and similar religion. When you speak about 3rd, 2nd etc century BC you speak obviously of Hellenization, since there is enough ground and social forces to cause that to alien to greek culture people. In prehistoric and archaic times, you don't have such forces Hellenizing completely alien populations. You have various people that have some basic substances which makes them in the end Greek, without a systematic approach such as Ionians and foremost Macedonians used.

So, Chibuldios, would Hellenization be a correct word?

Quote
As for those characters, it depends, as it was not only one Greek alphabet. It depends what they represent (some letters, digamma included, had also numerical values), in what language/dialect the inscription is written (some Greek dialects like Attic or Ionic lost the 'w' sound, but some didn't). One thing these inscriptions will never prove is that the language of the inscriptions was the only language spoken there.


You are very correct. However, i do not refer to numerical values but of words. Here  is a use of qoppa.

http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/main?url=oi%3Fikey%3D312666%26bookid%3D172%26region%3D4%26subregion%3D11

and here's a word with F.

http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=153303&bookid=172&region=4&subregion=11

The Wa- sound is indeed absent very early in Ionic and it is not present in Aeolic.

Quote
This so-called "presence in Macedonia" is actually a small corner of it (south-western), along the Haliakmon river (Pieria, Elimeia, etc.). Most of Macedonia (including Pella, but also Mygdonia, Bisaltia, Chalkidike, Bottike, etc.) was not Mycenaean.


I was not refering to Pella, Mygdonia, Bisaltia, Chalkidike, Bottiki (later, the one in Chalkidike). I was refering to the early homelands of the Macedonians.

Hammond, detects Phrygian burial places in Pella dating from 1200BC, but in the 8th century, over them, graves of Greek fashion replaced them. Pella is originaly not Macedonian homeland.

Chalkidike, received Bottian, Corinthian and Chalkidaen population and later you have the invation of Thracian Sitalkes and the Carian colony of the Athos penisula.

I was refering to historical Pieria (including Kozani Perfecture), that has strong Mycenaean culture and Emathia, after 1200BC.

As for the map...Many of these maps show the centres of the Mycenaean culture, where cities have been formed. In other words, the metropolitan areas.

This map below is labeled as "The most important centers of Mycenaean civilization".






Macedonia is certainly not an Urban territory at that time and does not qualify for a map like this. That does not mean that people bound to the southern metropolies do not inhabit it.

There is bibliography about Mycenaeans in Macedonia and some of it is:

A. Cambitoglou and J. Papadopoulos, "The Earliest Mycenaeans in Macedonia"

E. Kiriatzi, S. Andreou, S. Dimitriadis, and K. Kotsakis, "Co-existing Traditions: Handmade and Wheelmade Pottery in Late Bronze Age Central Macedonia'"

C. Koukouli, "The Late Bronze Age in Eastern Macedonia" L. Stefani, “Angelochori: A Late Bronze Age Settlement in Western Macedonia”

L. Stefani and N. Meroussis, "Incised and Matt-painted Pottery from Late Bronze Age Settlements in Western Macedonia: Technique, Shapes and Decoration,"

K. A. Wardle, "Assiros: A Macedonian Settlement of the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age"

G. Karamitrou - Mentesidi - "Boion - Notia Orestes" (This includes detailed maps of all settlements found from 1983 until today)

D. Mitrevski - "The Spreading of Mycenaean culture through the Vardar Valley"


Quote
On Macedonian language and Greekness, here's a small article/essay from livius.org:


Chilbudios, do you think i wouldn't be aware of Jona L? Smile Common now...

He sais himself he is no expert on the field. He makes elementary mistakes. I'm pretty sure, you don't agree with a lot of things, the way he presents them. I have sent him an email in the past regarding that artile. I can send it to you in a PM if you're interrested on the points.

Originally posted by Chilbulios Chilbulios wrote:


Now turning to your arguments, we don't have enough evidence to conclude that the allegedly Macedonian words and names with φ, χ, θ were not initially pronounced with β, γ, δ. Also it my be that deaspiration and voicing to have been distinct phenomena and also conditioned by a phonetic context (as many sound changes are). However, the ancient Greek authors (Plutarch and later authors, mostly Byzantine) testify the Macedonians did have this pronounciation. Of course, you may argue that these authors (undoubtely Greek speakers and knowing the Greek pronounciation) lied or exaggerated, of course, it is possible. But your conclusions do not emerge as swiftly as you suggested.


Chilbudios, I think the scans below can solve that issue. In the case of Palladarian, my grandmother was a native speaker, so for me, such voice changes are not strange at all. Palladarian is a place belonging to ancient Aeolia, so the similar changes in that dialect could be a remnand of proto-Aeolic. I think it is a matter of awareness of such phenomenas of each author that gives such a conclusion.


Note that B represents latin B and not the Greek V sound in the cases below.





In this case Π becomes B. T Becomaes D. Ψ becomes Bz- which does not exist anywhere else in Greece.





Here is the equivalent to Danos...Θ becomes Delta, just like in Macedonian. So, that sound could be a remnant of some primitive form that survived in Macedonian and Aeolic.





Now, lets move to the Tsakonian (Spartan Doric)

 

B is pronounced as standard Greek, except from certain combinations when it turns to Γ, Δ, Ζ and other rare cases.




Θ turns into S-sound, since as the author says there's a theory supporting it was absent in Laconian speech. However, he dissagrees giving examples that do use it.







Also, a known example of the past where the same Φ to B occurs is the name Koroibos, who was an Elean humble baker that won in the Olympics of 776BC. Koroibos was earlier worshipped at Megara as a founder of one of its hamlets.

So what is Koroibos? It is the early Doric version of Koroiphos before it was southernized. It means "to ride a virgin".



Now have a look at this one...Larissaeans send a letter to Philip V in Aeolic as spoken in that region instead of Koine. If Attic was simply a replacement in Macedonia, then how on earth would the Macedonians understand this text below? Remember, that Aeolians of Lesbos were bullied for their "barbaric" speach of Greek, which was Aeolic. Note also the refered Thessalian names in the end of the text. Βερέκκας instead of Φερεκλής.

http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=148433&bookid=10&region=3&subregion=9





Edited by Flipper - 30-Jan-2009 at 20:45


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And, btw Chilbudios. Thanks for your valueable input and effort, once more. I enjoy these conversations, since they're above any other discussion one can find in this subject.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote athenas owl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 19:02
"Now have a look at this one...Larissaeans send a letter to Philip V in Aeolic as spoken in that region instead of Koine. If Attic was simply a replacement in Macedonia, then how on earth would the Macedonians understand this text below? Remember, that Aeolians of Lesbos were bullied for their "barbaric" speach of Greek, which was Aeolic. Note also the refered Thessalian names in the end of the text. Βερέκκας instead of Φερεκλής. 

http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=148433&bookid=10&region=3&subregion=9 "

Translators?   How on earth would the Macedonians have understood the Persians or the Lydians or the Sidonians or the Egyptians?  

How did the earlier Greek critics (in the original sense) understand Psappha or as they called her Sappho?

I am just asking here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 19:35
Originally posted by athenas owl athenas owl wrote:

"Now have a look at this one...Larissaeans send a letter to Philip V in Aeolic as spoken in that region instead of Koine. If Attic was simply a replacement in Macedonia, then how on earth would the Macedonians understand this text below? Remember, that Aeolians of Lesbos were bullied for their "barbaric" speach of Greek, which was Aeolic. Note also the refered Thessalian names in the end of the text. Βερέκκας instead of Φερεκλής. 

http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=148433&bookid=10&region=3&subregion=9 "

Translators?   How on earth would the Macedonians have understood the Persians or the Lydians or the Sidonians or the Egyptians?  

How did the earlier Greek critics (in the original sense) understand Psappha or as they called her Sappho?

I am just asking here.


In 214BC, you have something called Koine. They could have used that like the rest of the Greeks. Persians, Egyptians etc had no common language with the Macedonians to communicate with. Lydians, probably used Ionian without problems. Using Aeolic is an overkill, unless you think they were like some Germans today who refuse to speak english.

And as you say, how did earlier Greeks understand Sappho? Well, probably they did, when they saw it written. Not so sure, if they would grasp everything if it was spoken. However, giving Aeolic to someone that has adopted Attic, without speaking any form of Greek, would be like giving a Pontian Greek text to a foreigner that has learned Demotic Greek today. Wink

My mother is Swedish and has been speaking Greek for almost 30 years now. She's not a native speaker, but she's damn good. Pontic Greek, Tsakonian, Calabrian in written form are not texts she would understand with the help of her standard Greek. Also, my greek grandmother for example never spoke to her in her native dialect because she would simply not clearly understand. Since, standard Greek exists she used that in the same way Greeks back then used Koine.






Edited by Flipper - 30-Jan-2009 at 20:20


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 20:25
Btw, here is how Lydians communicated with Macedonians: http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=263629&bookid=534&region=8&subregion=30

Koine...No Pamphylian Greek nor native Lydian.


Edited by Flipper - 30-Jan-2009 at 20:26


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 21:15
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

So, will you find them in greater numbers all over Scythia? Do you find them in remote locations? In Macedonia you find one inscription for every rock you turn over, even if that rock is in an isolated location up in the mountains.
I didn't say all over Scythia, I said the northern and western Pontic coast (and as you can easily find in the Packhum site, there are thousands of them). And you find them in what you call arguably remote locations, in mountains too, e.g. in Haemus (north of Black Sea are mostly steppes, therefore I'm picking an example from the west). Earlier today I was looking at a set of Greek inscriptions from Glava Panega (a mountainous region in north-central Bulgaria, rather remote from the main Greek cities), dating from the early centuries AD. At Glava Panega there was probably an Asklepieion and the spring - as the name hints - was believed to have healing properties. The inscriptions are IGB II 510-586 http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=168563&bookid=186&region=5&subregion=12  .
 
And in Macedonia you don't find "one inscription for every rock you turn over". I visited myself a small part of Macedonia (Drama and surroundings: Philippi, etc.), I stepped on many rocks, probably rolled some as well, but no inscriptions. Maybe the time washed them out Tongue
 
Quote I think it is still pretty easy to determine a Scythian from a Greek. A Hellenized Scythian maybe not ofcourse, but in any case, you can see that Greeks do stick out whenever opposed to Scythians.
Not really. I already mentioned a scholar studying the Olbian archaeological material and inscriptions, scholar who said it is impossible to separate Greeks from Scythians in the epigraphic record. If you can prove that all the allegedly Greek names from the Scythian inscriptions were of Greek people, please do it. Or that all the allegedly non-Greek names were of Scythians (or whatever other barbarians).
 
As for your inscriptions, Rhescuporis was also the name of several Thracian kings. If the Thracians and the Bosporans were sharing sometimes the same anthroponomastic fashion, why would anyone assume the Greeks (especially those from the periphery, in contact with other cultures) were an exception? Moreover, we know that Greek names were exported to "barbarians" (e.g. Andrew), we know that "barbarian" names were imported to Greeks (e.g. Ioannis). I don't see any reason in the ancient times the Greek to practice some sort of "onomastic apartheid". They certainly had their own specificity but that doesn't mean the boundaries weren't blurry.
True, sometimes by the use of statistics one might find out which names are popular in some regions, cultures, languages, religions, etc., but certainly that can't be the case for few isolated names served for exemplification. One problem which was reported for those Olbian names was that the sample of names was too small for finding reliable patterns. Consequently I have strong doubts that one can separate Greeks from Scythians on a glance.
 
Quote No I mean, historical accounts like Herodotus and Strabo. Strabo never said "Εστίν ουν Ελλάς η Σκυθία" (Scythia is a part of Hellas) which he did for Macedonia, nor did Herodotus assure us that the Scythians were of Greek descend. He does say that though for the Gileki, but mentions they are half Scythians and talk a mixed language.
But when Strabo wrote (early 1st century AD) Macedonia was almost entirely Greek speaking. That doesn't prove anything for Homeric or Myceneaen age. Also Herodotus did not claim Macedonia is a part of Hellas (and I already said that I do not count genealogical legends, there's a lot of scholarship - like Jonathan Hall's above - about it)
Sticking to Strabo, as I already pointed out, today Thrace (Thraki) is part of Greece (Hellas). I can find you numerous online materials claiming Thrace is a part of Hellas. This doesn't mean the Thracians were originally some Greek tribe speaking some Greek dialect.
 
Quote I hope you get my point. If we speak of Hellenization, can we go as far as unlimited back in time? The Macedonians Hellenized more people than any other Greek group. Did other hellenized people do that?

My point from the begining is that all Greeks at different time periods entered a process of getting a similar speech, similar culture and similar religion. When you speak about 3rd, 2nd etc century BC you speak obviously of Hellenization, since there is enough ground and social forces to cause that to alien to greek culture people. In prehistoric and archaic times, you don't have such forces Hellenizing completely alien populations. You have various people that have some basic substances which makes them in the end Greek, without a systematic approach such as Ionians and foremost Macedonians used.

So, Chibuldios, would Hellenization be a correct word?
 The evidence we have for Macedonians speaking Greek or being Greek (participating at the Olympics, having Greek gods, etc.) are late, are from the Classical age and later (when we indeed speak of Hellenization, as they call themselves Hellenes). We can't say anything about Macedonians in prehistoric and archaic times.
 
Quote You are very correct. However, i do not refer to numerical values but of words. Here  is a use of qoppa.

http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/main?url=oi%3Fikey%3D312666%26bookid%3D172%26region%3D4%26subregion%3D11

and here's a word with F.

http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=153303&bookid=172&region=4&subregion=11

The Wa- sound is indeed absent very early in Ionic and it is not present in Aeolic.
And is the presence of qoppa and digamma unusual in Greek inscriptions ~500 BC? I don't think so. Or does it prove the Macedonians always spoke a Greek dialect?
 
As far as I know the ancient inhabitants of Sicily weren't originally Greek speaking ( http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=175631&bookid=209&region=13&subregion=82 ). If Greek colonists could bring such characters in Sicily why couldn't they do the same in Macedonia or whereever else?
 
Quote I was not refering to Pella, Mygdonia, Bisaltia, Chalkidike, Bottiki (later, the one in Chalkidike). I was refering to the early homelands of the Macedonians.
If it is not Macedonia, where is this homeland and what are the evidences for it?
 
Quote As for the map...Many of these maps show the centres of the Mycenaean culture, where cities have been formed. In other words, the metropolitan areas.
This map below is labeled as "The most important centers of Mycenaean civilization".
Macedonia is certainly not an Urban territory at that time and does not qualify for a map like this. That does not mean that people bound to the southern metropolies do not inhabit it.
There is bibliography about Mycenaeans in Macedonia
But how one identify the Myceneaens from the Myceneaen culture (which can be also trade, gift-giving, and other cultural contacts with neighbours). I suggested in the case of Greek that not even Greek writing isn't a reliable criterion to locate the ancient Greeks (i.e. having Greek as native language), but in most of these regions, there's not even written evidence (i.e. Linear B) to locate the Greek-speaking Mycenaeans.
If I'm using a Coca Cola bottle am I an American? Then, to address one of the titles from your bibliography, if I'm using an allegedly Myceneaen pot, will that make me a Greek speaker? I say the only safe localization of Greek-speakers (the language being either native or learnt) is with Linear B.
 
Anyway, thank you for the references, I will try to find and read them.
 
Quote Chilbudios, do you think i wouldn't be aware of Jona L? Smile Common now...

He sais himself he is no expert on the field. He makes elementary mistakes. I'm pretty sure, you don't agree with a lot of things, the way he presents them. I have sent him an email in the past regarding that artile. I can send it to you in a PM if you're interrested on the points.
I suggested that essay because the presentation of several controversial aspects (language, ethnicity) is in agreement with what other scholars say.
 
Quote Chilbudios, I think the scans below can solve that issue.
The information is very interesting, but I respectfully disagree. You're presenting dialects and varieties of modern Greek. Some of the sound changes or pronounciations you refer to, were probably caused by centuries of contact with other languages (Slavic, Turkic mainly) or the internal evolutions of Greek dialects (languages inevitably change). The peliculiarity of Ancient Macedonian b, d, g is remarked when compared with the Ancient Greek dialects and the evolution of Greek language to that age (~500 BC). I will stress again that A. Panayotou, a Greek linguist, in her article on Macedonian dialects considers them a substratum relic and she's not the only scholar doing so. Jona Lendering may be no expert, but others are.
 
Quote Also, a known example of the past where the same Φ to B occurs is the name Koroibos, who was an Elean humble baker that won in the Olympics of 776BC. Koroibos was earlier worshipped at Megara as a founder of one of its hamlets.

So what is Koroibos? It is the early Doric version of Koroiphos before it was southernized. It means "to ride a virgin".
Or maybe Koroibos has another etymology / meaning and Koroiphos is a "folk-etymology". Who else was named Koroiphos (couldn't find any so far, nor the word listed in lexicons, but still looking)?
 
Quote Now have a look at this one...Larissaeans send a letter to Philip V in Aeolic as spoken in that region instead of Koine. If Attic was simply a replacement in Macedonia, then how on earth would the Macedonians understand this text below? Remember, that Aeolians of Lesbos were bullied for their "barbaric" speach of Greek, which was Aeolic. Note also the refered Thessalian names in the end of the text. Βερέκκας instead of Φερεκλής.
If some of the Thracians or Scythians could understand Greek, I guess some Macedonians could too, whatever their native language was. It is not like that like that letter was read by every Macedonian commoner. Not even all the Greeks were literate (even though having Greek as a native language).
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2009 at 22:59
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

In 214BC, you have something called Koine. They could have used that like the rest of the Greeks. Persians, Egyptians etc had no common language with the Macedonians to communicate with. Lydians, probably used Ionian without problems. Using Aeolic is an overkill, unless you think they were like some Germans today who refuse to speak english. 
The Larissaeans were not really forced to write in Koine, the Aeolic dialect was their own language. And the Macedonian court certainly could afford translators, especially from the neighbouring languages and Greek dialects. Moreover, some Macedonians could know Aeolic just like today some people from Czech Republic or northern Italy know German. There's always a degree of bilingualism along the borders.
Let's also note that among the scholars suggesting the Macedonians spoke a Greek dialect, not all agree on Aeolic.
 
On Koroibos, meanwhile I searched the Packhum database and I found several results for κοροιβ (I usually strip the endings from words, to find also the word in oblique cases, but also its derivatives) but 0 results for κοροιφ.
Is "koroiphos" an attested word/name or is it just a reconstruction by you/some other scholars? Where can I read of it? Thank you in advance.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 09:46
Good day!
Just a quick input Chilbudios about Koroibos/Koroiphos.

It is not my breakup really. It is a composite word, from "kore" and "oipheo/oiphein". I found it on the magenda lexicon, which is the richest Greek lexicon currently. I don't know where it is attested as koroiphos, but when i type koroibos, I get koroiphos as the main type instead of koroibos.

I will see if i find any known text containing it as koroiphos.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 09:50


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2009 at 11:30
Thank you, Flipper! Meanwhile I reached my LSJ lexicon and I also found the entry "koroiphos" having the meaning "defiling maidens". What's interesting is that it is next to "Koroibos" and there are several people listed with this name: an Athenian archon, that Elean Olympic victor you already mentioned, a Phrygian, a Plataean, an Argive. I'll keep searching on the origins and geographical distribution of the second name.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 21:19
Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:


I didn't say all over Scythia, I said the northern and western Pontic coast (and as you can easily find in the Packhum site, there are thousands of them). And you find them in what you call arguably remote locations, in mountains too, e.g. in Haemus (north of Black Sea are mostly steppes, therefore I'm picking an example from the west). Earlier today I was looking at a set of Greek inscriptions from Glava Panega (a mountainous region in north-central Bulgaria, rather remote from the main Greek cities), dating from the early centuries AD. At Glava Panega there was probably an Asklepieion and the spring - as the name hints - was believed to have healing properties. The inscriptions are IGB II 510-586 http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=168563&bookid=186&region=5&subregion=12  .
 


Yes, but again, look at the timeframes Chilbudios...
In the same way we can't take to account late BC and early AD records for Macedonians (e.g Strabo), we can't compare the timeframes of Scythia and Macedon. You're talking about dates, when Greek influence was greately established compared to archaic times (excluding Ionia and Sicely).

Ofcourse the "one inscription for every rock" I said was a way of speech, not a true argument. It was an exhageration to point out great amount.

Quote
One problem which was reported for those Olbian names was that the sample of names was too small for finding reliable patterns. Consequently I have strong doubts that one can separate Greeks from Scythians on a glance.


I haven't had a closer look, but i will look for more authors instead of sticking to one. You, know that historians can unintentionally overlook certain things. With a simple search I found that "babos" King. I don't want to imply that "babos" means certainly he was a non-Greek, since it could litterarly mean he had some problem or it could be something else. In any case it is an interresting case.

As for the Greeks importing names like "Ioannis" is only for religious reasons. Furthermore, they made them Greekish, they don't kept for example Jewish names in a Jewish form but turned e.g Ιακώβ to Ιάκωβος, while they refered to Jewish people named Jabob as Ιακώβ.

Quote
But when Strabo wrote (early 1st century AD) Macedonia was almost entirely Greek speaking. That doesn't prove anything for Homeric or Myceneaen age. Also Herodotus did not claim Macedonia is a part of Hellas (and I already said that I do not count genealogical legends, there's a lot of scholarship - like Jonathan Hall's above - about it)
Sticking to Strabo, as I already pointed out, today Thrace (Thraki) is part of Greece (Hellas). I can find you numerous online materials claiming Thrace is a part of Hellas. This doesn't mean the Thracians were originally some Greek tribe speaking some Greek dialect.


I can agree with your note on Strabo and I didn't say Herodotus said it was a part of Hellas. In fact Herodotus never mentioned that about anyone. There are other authors (incl Herodotus) that refer to their origins or applying epithets in various forms. If we get to non-Greek or non-Roman authors the frequency is even larger.

As for Thrace, can you be more specific? Who wrote it is a part of Hellas? I'm not aware of such a source, at least not an ancient one. Currently, a part of it is in Greece but overall in school you learn that Thrace is a larger region, that Thracians were neighbouring nation to the Greeks, that Ionians colonized the coast, that Thracian were Hellenized, that Pomaks could be their closest ancestors etc etc.

Quote
 The evidence we have for Macedonians speaking Greek or being Greek (participating at the Olympics, having Greek gods, etc.) are late, are from the Classical age and later (when we indeed speak of Hellenization, as they call themselves Hellenes). We can't say anything about Macedonians in prehistoric and archaic times.


But here you come to my original point and i'm not sure if you got me from the beginning. Is Hellenization the correct word to use for those periods? Writting is not excistent or litteracy is low, the Greek world is rather static and there are no forces that can cause a systematic change of culture, religion, language?

I'm basically objecting to the definition. Also, those authors who use that theory can not put a finger to an approximation on when and where it started.

Quote
And is the presence of qoppa and digamma unusual in Greek inscriptions ~500 BC? I don't think so. Or does it prove the Macedonians always spoke a Greek dialect?


No, but obviously they did not speak Attic when they started to write but some other type, where it was suitable to use -que and wa- sounds. Also, in the Derveni papyri, the language is mixed Attic and something else which i'm not sure if it definetely Doric as some say.

Quote
If it is not Macedonia, where is this homeland and what are the evidences for it?


I already answered to that. Emathia and Pieria as far as the Pindus chain. Strabo tells us that Macedonia was earlier called Emathia. Justin records the same when he speaks about the arrival of Caranus. Aegae was Phrygian until the 12th century. You have a difference of material cultures during the bronze age between what we now call southern macedonia and the part that covers Aegae, Drama etc as Hammond notices. The Chalkidike penisula needs no introduction... The Chalkidike people differenciated themselves from the pre-Philippic Macedonia. Just some examples...

Quote
But how one identify the Myceneaens from the Myceneaen culture (which can be also trade, gift-giving, and other cultural contacts with neighbours). I suggested in the case of Greek that not even Greek writing isn't a reliable criterion to locate the ancient Greeks (i.e. having Greek as native language), but in most of these regions, there's not even written evidence (i.e. Linear B) to locate the Greek-speaking Mycenaeans.
If I'm using a Coca Cola bottle am I an American? Then, to address one of the titles from your bibliography, if I'm using an allegedly Myceneaen pot, will that make me a Greek speaker? I say the only safe localization of Greek-speakers (the language being either native or learnt) is with Linear B.
 
Anyway, thank you for the references, I will try to find and read them.



You're welcome. Have a look at them, cause they explain briefly those differences. There's a difference between imported ware and localy made ware. Your coca cola bottle has Romanian text on the ingredients and mine has Greek. Cretans make their own kinds of soft drinks called "Gerani" as well as other names. As for linear B and writting i can only speak about Elimia currently. The rest are theories based on the data we have, like many of the things you and I have mentioned in this thread.

Quote
The information is very interesting, but I respectfully disagree. You're presenting dialects and varieties of modern Greek. Some of the sound changes or pronounciations you refer to, were probably caused by centuries of contact with other languages (Slavic, Turkic mainly) or the internal evolutions of Greek dialects (languages inevitably change). The peliculiarity of Ancient Macedonian b, d, g is remarked when compared with the Ancient Greek dialects and the evolution of Greek language to that age (~500 BC). I will stress again that A. Panayotou, a Greek linguist, in her article on Macedonian dialects considers them a substratum relic and she's not the only scholar doing so. Jona Lendering may be no expert, but others are.


First of all, I think you have missunderstood my view on the specific theories whether Macedonian was Doric or Aeolic. I do not believe it was Aeolic like Hoffman insisted. To be honest, I can't say it was certainly Doric, because as I early on this thread demonstrated what we read as  Doric of the Corinthian region, was not Doric according to the Corinthians. What I tend to believe is that there's a background (depending on geography as well) that contributed in various ways to these tongues + a vacum of proto-Greek speaking migrations from the north and later a Phrygian one to the west that created a certain morphology in the speech.

So, I think I have cleared that out.

Now to the examples i gave you on modern Greek as you say. Tsakonian is not exactly modern Greek. It is far from that, since it evolved separately from the Attic Greek. Moreover, you're talking about a region were people switched to christianity later than anyone else. Ok, i'm not 100% they're the latest ones, but they were damn late at the 11th century.

Michail Lekos, the linguist and writer of the book i scanned, is a native speaker of Tsakonian (unlike many others who were devoted to it). In the introduction, after labeling it Laconian he says:

"Είναι τουτέστιν αυτή συγγενής και της Ομηρικής, ήτοι της Ιωνικής διαλέκτου, καθό αδελφή της Δωρικής"

"Moreover it is a relativeof the Homeric and Ionic dialect, as well as a sister language to the Doric dialect"

Note the Kynourians (AKA Tsakonians nowadays) were originally autochthonus Ionians and Arcadians that switched to Doric (See Pausanias, Lakonika, 11, 207.2 and Herodotus, VIII, 73).

Now, I'm pretty sure that neither Turks nor Slavs would use Δ instead of Θ, since none of those consonants exist in their language. In fact words like θαρσήεις and δαδίς are rather impossible for pronounciation for Turkish speakers and therefore does not explain foreign influence. I know this from first hand, since i've already made the test on my gf who is turkish Smile

Also the change of βλέπω το γλέπω is neither a confortable switch...

The fact is that mr Lekos, says the following about foreign influence on Tsakonian,

"The Germans Zigaizen and Miklosic concluded that the reason that Tsakonian is different from standard Greek is because the slavic influence. Obviously their ignorance on Tsakonian led them to that erronious conclusion"

However, he later credits Deffner because he got in the process of learning the language.

Later on the chapter of grammar he recognises the foreign elements as Albanian (which he happens to have a fair knowledge on), which he attributes to the contact with the south-western arvatite villages of the argolis perfecture. He recognises Albanian words, which he points out, but mentions nothing on grammar and phonology.

Now, to the Palladarian book...Indeed Palladarian as modern Greek as it can get. However, it has a long background of Aeolic speakers and as I told you the sound changes there are on consonants that are not used in Turkish.

Now, have a look at the following essay. It is a child from Levadero, Kozani perfecture who litterarly writes as he speaks. It is basically the way natives of those regions speak even today (unlike the Asia minor people living amongst them).




Now look at the following:

"Του προυί σκόνητι η μάναμ να πα να χέσι".

which in standard Greek is

Το πρωί σηκώνεται η μητέρα μου να πάει να χέσει

and means "in the morning my mother woke up to go for a shit" LOL

"Ανοίγει ντπόρτα"

"Ανοίγει την πόρτα" - She opened the door

"Τι κάντς άι ικεί;"

"Τι κάνεις εσύ εκεί;" - What are you doing there

"Ύστερα πήγα στου παραθύρι και έγλιπα του χιόνι"

"Ύστερα πήγα στο παράθυρο και έβλεπα το χιόνι" - I went to the window and i was watching the snow

"Αυτό ήταν του πρότου χιόνι στου χουριό μ"

"Αυτό ήταν το πρώτο χιόνι στο χωριό μου" - That was the first snow in my village



What do we have here will you ask me? Well, you have the phenomenas found in Laconia, Thessaly and Aeolia in one regardless the timeframe! Let me be specific.

"Anige Dporta"...The same switch of P to B or of P to D like in Palladarian.

"Ti kants ai ike"...Iotaism like in many non Attic speaking regions (ikei instead of ekei, Timounida instead of Temenida,this occurs in regions of Messologi and Agrinion today) and the different breath stops (kants) that are found in Aeolic (see in the Thessalian letter πὸτ τὸς, Λαρσαίοις).

"Ejlipa tou chioni"...The same replacement of b to j (or g if you prefer) like in Tsakonian (γλέπω instead of  βλέπω).

"tou protou chioni stou chourio m"...The replacement of ending -o tou -ou like in Tsakonian and Aeolic (see Φιλανθρούπα, χούραν)

As you can see, you have common phenomenas in 3 isolated from each other regions (Macedonia/Thessaly, Aeolia, Laconia), from various times.

Don't forget also that in the Thessalian letter you have the names that have B instead of Ph-.

So my point is that claiming that those phenomenas are stricly found in Macedonia are far from correct, whether a linguist says so or not. It is a matter of awareness rather than knowledge on ancient Greek.

I'm lacking time, but if you want i can scan many more examples from many places, reaching as far as the island of Karpathos (which Leonidas in this case can assist as a native Karpathian).




Edited by Flipper - 03-Feb-2009 at 21:52


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 22:02
LOL, flipper the last essay was priceless...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 22:56
Hahahha yeah...Kids that are not afraid to tell everything LOL Especially about details why their mother woke up early in the morning.

However, it is the kids of the ages 7-10 that write exactly as they speak at home. Many linguists i've seen who write about diatopies of languages, collect such essays for their work.


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