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Forum LockedThe Great Division in Islam

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AksumVanguard View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12-Feb-2009 at 00:46
After Muhamad's death 3 caliphs were able to keep the faith in a unified direction but after Ali,there was a great rift for many reasons.

Some muslims such as Ummayads believed Islam should remain an Arab religion,  the Ummayads were killed at the hands of the Abbasids and took over their former  territories of North Africa and the Iberia. There soon became a major rift between Suffi muslimas and Shi'a muslims. There was also a dispute between Seljuk Turks and Abbasids in which case the Seljuks won.Then the Ottomans and The Saffavid dynasty were in conflict.


For what reason was there great division in the Islamic Empire?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2009 at 00:56
I am not really sure what your question is?

What is your opinion as to why?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2009 at 01:07
Quote There soon became a major rift between Suffi muslimas and Shi'a muslims

, yeah those Sufi chicks - just no pleasing them
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2009 at 01:14
LOL

I just re-read that




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Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

I am not really sure what your question is?

What is your opinion as to why?


What were the political factors that caused great division between the different islamic states?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2009 at 01:30
People wanting to run a territory at the expense of other people? There isn't much complexity to that question. You see this same trend in the Roman Empire for example with sometimes 4 or 5 Emperors all having some sort of Imperial territory for however long or short that is. Also The Umayyad dynasty got autonomous control over Spain and retained it for centuries until the House died out. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2009 at 02:05
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

People wanting to run a territory at the expense of other people? There isn't much complexity to that question. You see this same trend in the Roman Empire for example with sometimes 4 or 5 Emperors all having some sort of Imperial territory for however long or short that is. Also The Umayyad dynasty got autonomous control over Spain and retained it for centuries until the House died out. 


Didn't the Abbasids defeat the Ummyads how were the able to retain control of Spain?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2009 at 03:00
They with a coalition of parties in particular the Alids (whom they went on persecuting after the coup) were able to overthrow the Ummayyad Caliphs and the family from control in the capital, one younger Umayyad family member escaped to the Maghreb and then Spain via his mother's Moorish relatives. He gained control as the governor of Spain in official terms, but was autonomous and independent practically. 

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Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

They with a coalition of parties in particular the Alids (whom they went on persecuting after the coup) were able to overthrow the Ummayyad Caliphs and the family from control in the capital, one younger Umayyad family member escaped to the Maghreb and then Spain via his mother's Moorish relatives. He gained control as the governor of Spain in official terms, but was autonomous and independent practically. 


So one Ummayyd was related to the Kableys and Amazighs this explains why the Almoravids and Turegs later came to assist them in Reconquista if I'm correct.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2009 at 03:32
Originally posted by AksumVanguard AksumVanguard wrote:

After Muhamad's death 3 caliphs were able to keep the faith in a unified direction but after Ali,there was a great rift for many reasons.

Some muslims such as Ummayads believed Islam should remain an Arab religion,  the Ummayads were killed at the hands of the Abbasids and took over their former  territories of North Africa and the Iberia. There soon became a major rift between Suffi muslimas and Shi'a muslims. There was also a dispute between Seljuk Turks and Abbasids in which case the Seljuks won.Then the Ottomans and The Saffavid dynasty were in conflict.


For what reason was there great division in the Islamic Empire?



ُThe Division started in the last years of Caliph Uthman, and became obvious after his Assassination, When Caliph Ali took over there is already a division that Muaweyah did not want to acknowledge Ali as a Caliph until those who killed Uthman are judged.

the story is too long, moving the capital to Iraq, Eqypt governor allying with Muaweyah, assassination of Ali by a group similar to whom killed Uthman, Muaweyah survived the assassination and  considered himself a caliph and the start of Ummayads dynasty, Makkah became independent under another companion of the prophet rule.... the death of Al Husain, Ali's son and grandson of the prophet in a battle with Muaweyah's son's army....

There is a theory that the spark of all this started in Egypt where someone called Abdullah who told the Egyptian public about how Uthman is favoring his relatives in government positions and how Ali should be the Caliph....etc, then a huge group from Egypt went to Madina as pilgrims with intention to change Uthman's rule.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2009 at 04:47
Originally posted by azimuth azimuth wrote:

Originally posted by AksumVanguard AksumVanguard wrote:

After Muhamad's death 3 caliphs were able to keep the faith in a unified direction but after Ali,there was a great rift for many reasons.

Some muslims such as Ummayads believed Islam should remain an Arab religion,  the Ummayads were killed at the hands of the Abbasids and took over their former  territories of North Africa and the Iberia. There soon became a major rift between Suffi muslimas and Shi'a muslims. There was also a dispute between Seljuk Turks and Abbasids in which case the Seljuks won.Then the Ottomans and The Saffavid dynasty were in conflict.


For what reason was there great division in the Islamic Empire?



ُThe Division started in the last years of Caliph Uthman, and became obvious after his Assassination, When Caliph Ali took over there is already a division that Muaweyah did not want to acknowledge Ali as a Caliph until those who killed Uthman are judged.

the story is too long, moving the capital to Iraq, Eqypt governor allying with Muaweyah, assassination of Ali by a group similar to whom killed Uthman, Muaweyah survived the assassination and  considered himself a caliph and the start of Ummayads dynasty, Makkah became independent under another companion of the prophet rule.... the death of Al Husain, Ali's son and grandson of the prophet in a battle with Muaweyah's son's army....

There is a theory that the spark of all this started in Egypt where someone called Abdullah who told the Egyptian public about how Uthman is favoring his relatives in government positions and how Ali should be the Caliph....etc, then a huge group from Egypt went to Madina as pilgrims with intention to change Uthman's rule.



Muaweyah and his followers not taking retalliation against  the Byzantine empire might of also caused a split would't of it. Why did the want Ali killed any way?

And its funny to me that not to many Saudi Arabians would like to be caliphs,why didn't they create their own capital?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2009 at 04:55
Saudi Arabians? That is a relatively new term - and concept. As Azimuth pointed out there were people who did, but the Caliphate regained control of the area. Also the idea of two or more Caliphs didn't come until the 900s. It was with the Fatimids and the remaining Umayyid dynasty in Spain that we get two new Caliphs after the Abbasid dynasty weakened and independence-autonomy movements ensued. 

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Hello Aksum
 
Your history is so distorted that I really don't know where to begin. Division began early in Islam because the Caliph Uthman was not doing things some people wanted him to do. People in Iraq hated him and the tough governors he appointed. Iraq was a center of all sorts of groups among muslims, puritans, Arab supremacists, newly converts etc, who united to oppose him. When they rebelled and came to Medinah he refused to fight them and ordered Ali not to touch them despite he could have annihilated them using the army at his disposal. Ali didn't, the caliph was assasinated and people became angry. They became ecstatic when Ali even employed some of the murderes which some people saw as a conspiracy against Uthman lead by Ali. Ali's supporters began to invent stories about the divine right to the caliphate Ali had to gain support but such stories didn't have much support, Ali actually killed some of those people but the majority suported him because of pure political reasons. Muawiyah and other prophet companions never doubted Ali's legitimacy. All what they wanted from Ali was justice. A third party came later opposed to both and was fought by both parties. In the end they succeeded in killing Ali and Muawiyah, being the most powerful man in the empire took the rule. Things would have gone hunky-dory if not for the death of Al-Hassan, the crown prince if that is the correct term for him, since he was much younger than the aged Muawiyah he was to rule after him. Despite there was no evidence on his murder Ali's supporters, now called shia, began to circulate stories about his murder. Al-Husain refutated such claims and remained loyal. However when Muawyah gave the rule to his son he opposed claiming legitimacy. Neither he nor Yazid had any right to claim such legitimacy according to the orthodox doctrine of the Sunnis. The caliph was to be chosen but the majority of people however accepted Yazid's rule. Al-Husain refused calls for rebellion however he accepted an invitation to Iraq where his supporter were the majority and the tragedy of Karbala happened. Yazid despite his horror from the massacre refused to procecute the murderers because he considered Al-Husain a rebel and his murder thus justified. Already there was a third claiment to the caliphate who refused the oath of allegiance, he was Abdullah ibn Al-Zubair. A veteran military commander and the conquests and from the so called "aristocracy" of Quraish. His support was mute untill Al-Husain's murder then all hell broke loose again and in a muchbloodier fashion than in the earlier war. In the end the war was to take him and his brother and to last for 20 years. After that powerful ummayyad rulers muted the rebellion till the Abbasids began their plan and succeeded. Till then all this was just politics. It became religious much much later.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2009 at 14:17
Thanx alot guys,I'm getting a clearer picture now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Haqq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 03:24
It all makes sense now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2009 at 06:28
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Hello Aksum
 
Your history is so distorted that I really don't know where to begin. Division began early in Islam because the Caliph Uthman was not doing things some people wanted him to do.
 


I was simply  asking what major rifts occured in the Islamic Empire but I didn't mean each major rift  necessarily came in chronological order.I was reading on a few articles,and found more information about why different rifts occured in Islam .

  the Abbasids and took over their former  territories
Originally posted by azimuth azimuth wrote:


Muaweyah survived the assassination and  considered himself a caliph and the start of Ummayads dynasty, Makkah became independent under another companion of the prophet rule.... the death of Al Husain, Ali's son and grandson of the prophet in a battle with Muaweyah's son's army....

http://moinansari.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/islam_map-ummayads.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/World_820.png

[quote]

http://wps.ablongman.com/long_stearns_wcap_4/18/4647/1189757.cw/index.htm

There was also a dispute between Seljuk Turks and Abbasids in which case the Seljuks won

Loss of Power

Mahmud of Ghazni proclaimed the title of Sultan vs. the Emir that been in more common usage prior, signifying the Ghaznavid Empire's independence from Caliphial authority even as a matter of form. By the 11th century, this was demonstrated by no longer mentioning the caliphs name in the Friday Khutba, or by striking it off from their coinage by the Seljuks, Sultanate of Rum, Khwarezmshahs, Almoravids etc.[2] The Fatimids contested the Abbassids for even the titluar authority. The Buwayhids were then defeated in the mid-11th century by enlisting the aid of the Seljuks under Toghril Beg. The Seljuks however then themselves took over defacto lordship of the empire, and their leader bestowed the title by the caliph of the Sultan of the East and the West, reflecting his power, and exerted influence power over the Abbasids as a matter of form by publicly pledging allegiance to them leaving the Caliph in control of little actual territory beyond Baghdad.[2]

Nomadic Incursions and the Eclipse of Caliphal Power. By the mid-tenth century, breakaway former provinces began to challenge Abbasid rule. The Buyids of Persia captured Baghdad in 945. The caliphs henceforth became powerless puppets controlled by sultans, the actual rulers. The Seljuk Turks defeated the Buyids in 1055 and ruled the remnants of the Abbasid Empire for two centuries. The Seljuks were staunch Sunni who purged the Shi’a. For a time, Seljuk military power restored the diminished caliphate. Egyptians and Byzantines were defeated, the latter success opening Anatolia, the nucleus of the later Ottoman Empire, to settlement by Turkic nomads.

 So an emir of Ghazni named Mahmud and other emirs such as the sultanate of Rum, Khwarezmashamas,  decided he wanted full autonmous control of Fatmids. They were aided by the Seljuk Turks and were victorious but the Seljuk Turks outwitted their allies and decided to take full authority over former fatmids .


Then the Ottomans and The Saffavid dynasty were in conflict.


http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/h17isl.html

The Safavids and War between Shia

While under the rule of the Mongols, in the 1200s, the Persians had given up on politics and militarism and had submerged themselves in Islamic devotion, Sufism and religious eclecticism. During these times, Iran had Mongol and Turkish immigrants who adopted the Persian language and Persian customs. In the 1300s, a dynasty founded by a grandson of Genghis Khan, Hulagu, ruled in Iran. It wavered between Christianity and Islam and chose Islam. Meanwhile a militant Islamic Sufi order, the Safavids, appeared among Turkish speaking people, their home base at Ardebil, west of the Caspian Sea. And the Safavid order survived the coming of Timur (Tamerlane) in the 1300s. 

By 1500 the Safavids had adopted the Shia branch of Islam. Safavid males wore red headgear for identification, and they were eager to advance Shi'ism by military means. They viewed their religious leader as a perfect guide as well as an able military chieftain, and they viewed their leader's position as rightly passed from father to son - in the Shia tradition.

In the year 1500, the thirteen-year-old son of a recently deceased Safavid leader set out to conquer territory. In 1501 the Safavids seized Tabriz and made it their capital. And they conquered in Armenia, Azerbaijan and Khurasan. The Safavids became the strongest force in Iran, and their leader, Isma'il, now fifteen, was declared Shah (king).

The area of the world thought of as Iran was mountainous and it had a variety of nomadic tribes with egalitarian traditions not yet completely erased.  In addition to Persians, Iran had Kurds, Arabs, Turkomans and Baluchis to name a few. At Isma'il's court a Turkish language was spoken, but having adopted much of Persian culture the Safavids were thought by outsiders to be Persian. To help organize the state the Safavids used Persian bureaucrats with a tradition in administration and tax collecting, and they tried to create religious unity. Isma'il described himself as a descendant, on their father's side, of the Prophet Muhammad. Shi'ism became the state religion, Isma'il denigrating the Sunni branch of Islam and trying to force people to become Shia - a difficult task as his authority with a  variety of tribes had been little accepted.

The Ottoman sultan, Bayezid II (ruled 1481-1512), a Sunni Muslim, congratulated Isma'il on his military victories and suggested that he and his Shia followers stop destroying the graves and mosques of Sunni Muslims. Convinced of the righteousness of their cause and the evil of the Sunni branch of Islam, the Safavids ignored Bayezid.

In 1512 the aged Bayezid was ill. His three sons fought each other for his throne at the Ottoman capital, Constantinople. Those special warriors, the Janissaries, were a power behind the throne and chose as the new sultan the son that was most warlike: Selim. Bayezid was dethroned, and Selim secured his rule by having his two brothers and their sons executed by strangulation, Selim becoming Selim I.

Selim embarked on a war against what he saw as the heresy of Shi'ism. He is reported to have exterminated thousands of Shia Muslims in Asia Minor. Then he launched a war against the Shia king of Persia: Isma'il. Selim's armies advanced through northern Mesopotamia, and in August 1514, just west of Tabriz, Selim's army defeated the Safavid army, which had cavalry with only spears, bows and swords against Ottoman artillery and muskets.

Isma'il had been accustomed to victory, and he and his Safavid followers had believed that Allah was on their side. They were bewildered by their defeat. Isma'il found relief from psychological depression in wine. He died ten years later at the age of thirty-seven.

The Ottoman Empire Expands

Next, Selim moved against the Mameluk rulers who had allied themselves with the Persians. In 1516 his troops moved southward and captured Damascus, Beirut, Gaza and Jerusalem. In 1517 the Ottomans defeated the Mameluk Sultan Tuman outside Cairo. In Egypt, Selim's forces confronted the last of Abbasid authority, the Abbasid caliph having moved to Egypt after the conquest of Baghdad by the Mongols in 1258. Under the Mameluks, the Abbasids had been making only a feeble show of authority in religious matters. Now the head of the Abbasid family was taken to Constantinople as prisoner. The Abbasids surrendered the title of caliph and the sword and mantle of Muhammad the Prophet, to Selim, who declared himself caliph. The Ottoman Empire now included all of Mesopotamia, Armenia, lands to the Caspian Sea, Syria, Palestine and Egypt. In nine years, Selim had almost doubled the size of the Ottoman Empire. He became known as a great conqueror. He was also an accomplished poet in three languages, but for the world it was his conquests, his use of violence, that was most celebrated.

Selim became ill in 1520. He died and was succeeded by his only son, Suleiman (Sulayman), who was twenty-six. Suleiman inherited a well organized nation, a treasury filled with taxes drawn from far and wide, and a disciplined army. In Europe he was to be called Suleiman the Magnificent because of wealth and grandeur, although amid his wealth he was thought to be a man of discipline and simplicity - in the tradition of Abu Bakr and Umar ibn-al-Khattab - aside from the harem that he had inherited, filled with 300 women under the age of twenty-five, almost all of them Christians, guarded by eunuchs. Suleiman was commander of the faithful, a man of sincere religious convictions, with more kindness and tolerance than his father. But he believed that he should conquer as had his father. He believed that he should unite the peoples of the East and West as had Alexander the Great.

During Suleiman's first year as sultan he moved against Belgrade. Europeans were too distracted by conflict amongst themselves to rally to Belgrade's defense. Suleiman surrounded the city and bombarded it with heavy cannon, and Belgrade fell to the Ottomans in August, 1521.

Next, Suleiman aimed at conquest of the Christian island of Rhodes. The Ottomans viewed the knights there as cutthroats and pirates and were annoyed with their attacks on Ottoman ships taking goods to Egypt and pilgrims to Mecca. The conquest over Rhodes was to eliminate all threats to Ottoman naval power in the Aegean and eastern Mediterranean seas.

The assault on Rhodes began in 1522, Suleiman sending an armada of 400 ships to Rhodes and leading 100,000 men over land to a point just opposite the island. The Ottomans employed their artillery again - known to be the best in the world - and they reinforced their bombardments with sappers and explosives. And after a siege of 145 days, Rhodes capitulated. The island's inhabitants were allowed to depart if they wished, and those who stayed were promised freedom of worship and freedom from taxation for five years.

Four years after his victory over Rhodes, Suleiman aimed against at conquest in Europe. In 1526 he overran Buda and Pest on the Danube River in Hungary. He moved against Vienna, but lacking enough soldiers he returned to Constantinople and tried again in May,1529. His troops had to endure much rain. At Vienna's walls the Ottomans applied their light cannon, musketry and skilled archery. Suleiman's army made a gap 150 feet wide in Vienna's wall, but with ferocious resistance the Christians stopped the Ottomans from pouring through. Ottomans losses were heavy. Suleiman's army was essentially a summer force, and with winter approaching Suleiman lifted his siege against Vienna. The Ottomans set fire to their camps, massacred their prisoners except for those young enough to qualify for their slave markets and returned home, to be harassed by Christian cavalry and bad weather along the way. In Vienna, the sight of the Ottoman withdrawal was followed by the ringing of bells and great celebration. Suleiman had suffered his first defeat. Christian Europe saw itself as having been delivered from Islam and the Ottomans.

Under Suleiman, the Ottomans made further gains in empire along the coast of North Africa west of Egypt. In the early 1500s, Islamic pirates there, the most famous of which the Christians called Barbarossa, a Turk from Lesbos, had been in conflict with the Portuguese and Spanish. The pirates held territory along the coast of North Africa. Barbarossa's brother, Arüj, the ruling pirate, was killed by the Spanish in 1518. Barbarossa took over, assuming title of Khayr ad-Din, and fearing loss of territory to the Spanish he offered homage to Suleiman. That same year, Suleiman sent Khayr ad-Din reinforcements.  In 1529, Khayr ad-Din took control of Algiers and made it the base for piracy. Suleiman made Khaya ad-Din admiral-in-chief of his navy, and in 1534 Khayr ad-Din captured Tunis. Charles V, the Habsburg emperor of Spain, sent a force that retook Tunis. Then in 1538 Khayr ad-Din defeated Charles' navy at the Battle of Préveza. Twice - in 1533 and 1544 - Khayr ad-Din defeated the Italian admiral Andrea Doria, giving the Ottomans control over the Mediterranean Sea. Khayr enjoyed a great presence at court until his death in 1546. Suleiman lived until 1566.

In 1570, the Ottoman Turks captured Cyprus from the Venetians. Christian communities along the eastern Mediterranean coast shook with fear. Pope Pius V allied the Church with Venice, and Philip II of Spain entered the alliance. In 1571, a force of more than 300 ships, supplied by Venice, Spain and a small squadron from the Papal states, met the Turks inside the Gulf of Lepanto - the last great battle with oar propelled vessels. The Christian alliance lost 12 galleys and around 8,000 men killed. The Ottomans lost an estimated 25,000 killed and 117 galleys. From the Ottoman ships the Christians seized 15,000 Christians said to have been slaves. It was the first defeat of an Ottoman force - a victory that Pope Pius V attributed to the intercession of Saint Mary. But it was not a totally effective intercession: the Ottomans immediately began to rebuild their navy. Ottoman naval superiority in the Mediterranean was soon restored, and Cyprus was not recovered.

The Safavids, Bloodletting and Shia Politics to the End of the Century

Safavid confidence returned. Safavid shahs, Tahmasp, Isma'il II and Muhammad Khadabandeh, ruling in succession to 1587, expanded in the direction opposite from the Ottomans, as far as Transoxiana. And the Safavids turned again against Ottoman power and fought for control over Tabriz, Baghdad and Armenia.

These shahs tightened controls over their subjects, each district having its own Safavid leader, a Qizilbash chief,  answerable to the Shah. In time of war the Qizilbash chiefs were responsible for providing soldiers for the shah's army and for collecting revenues to pay for war. And the local Qizilbash chiefs grew wealthy - Shia society not immune from the same temptations that had plagued their enemy, centuries before - the Umayyads.

The shahs created an ideological and judicial order as a part of their theocracy. Members of the order were scholar-priests known as ulama. The most learned of the Ulama achieved the rank of mujtahid, similar to the position to be known as ayatollah. In Safavid times, few reached this highest rank level, and those who did were allowed to give authoritative interpretations to questions of religious law.

With their self-esteem and power derived from their increased wealth, some local Qizilbash chiefs wished to have more freedom from the Shah's authority. They tried to convince Shah Khadabandeh that he should select a successor amenable to them. Some of these chiefs tried to reduced the chances of another choice by executing the heir, his mother and some other possible heirs within the royal family. As often happens, politics by murder was less than efficient. The younger brother of the murdered heir was secretly whisked away to Khurasan, and Qizilbash chiefs loyal to the royal family fought and defeated Qizilbash chiefs who were not, and full power was returned to the old dynasty of shahs. The younger brother of the murdered heir, Abbas, succeeded Khadabandeh in 1587, and he was to rule until 1629.


Overall the a dynasty called the Saffavids was founded in the Ottoman province by Ghengis Khans grandson called Hulagu. Isma'il a great leader conquered Armenia,Azerbaijan,and Khurasan.They Saffavids did keep the Otomans supervision in their court keeping, howveer Selim an Ottoman Commander decided to launch a war against the the Sufi order followers in the Saffavid provinces.This also helps to bring a further wedge in the Shi'a and Sufi Split

Map: Ottoman Empire and Tributary States, 1566 to 1699








Edited by AksumVanguard - 29-May-2009 at 01:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2009 at 07:01
Originally posted by ogmios666 ogmios666 wrote:

666

Originally posted by ogmios666 ogmios666 wrote:

I always tell my students that Islam was the greatest religion which had descended upon mankind after the other divine scriptures, the Torah and the Ingel, These Books including the Quran were merely a re-confirmation of all the previous scriptures upto the time of the Pages of Abraham.


It is known that Amalakites Sabeans ,Qatabeans  Himyarates and other Arabian tribes did follow pagan godssuch as Hubal.The Himyarites did follow Judaism make judaism a state religion.So to say

[QUOTE=ogmios666]What has evidently gone wrong in all religions is that all the facts have been distorted to make legal things illegal and illegal things legal, to suit their own evil and selfish agendas.



The thing is that Muhhamad lived in a city of Christians and jews so to he was relatively in contact with the teachings of the people of the book. So who is to say that the Muhammad did not get outside influence to create his new found teachings is highly unlikely. Its like christians trying to denounce the Torah or Pentaeuch becuase thats were alot of the teachings come from.

The book Quran was not even written until after Muhhamd death so alot of his teachings could be lost not to mention the boiling tension arisng with in the Islamic community.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2009 at 09:32

Hello to you all

Shias were a political party since day one. Only in the late 2nd century AH (9th AD) did the main shia doctrines of Imamah, wilayah and others  brgan to form. Zaidis refused these theories and continued to be a polictical faction more than a religious one (they accept sunni hadith books in their doctrine as well as many sunni doctrines). Ithna ashariyah however formed their own doctrines that are completely different than sunni ones.

As for christian and jews being in Mecca and Madinah, this is not true. Only jews existed in Madinah and the Quran was mostly written in Mecca. Plus the prophet didn't know greek or Hebrew and the teachings of the Quran have significant differences between it and the Bible.

Finally the Quran was written during the prophet's life time. After his death and thinking that some people might claim otherwise the Quran was gathered from different sources and different people as well from the written texts and written in a unified manner and kept safe and open for copying (several copies existed before the standard Uthman text was adopted later because Arabic had several writing systems at the time and Uthman adopted the one used now).

Al-Jassas

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ogmios666 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ogmios666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2009 at 14:13
666
The Holy Quran took 23 years to complete, and the way it was sent down was divine, I am sure all of you are aware of Gabriel, well he was the one who taught Muhammad pbuh the word of God, do remember everyone that Muhammad pbuh was an unlettered Prophet, meaning that he could neither read or write, and then all of a sudden he became so eloquent, this in those days was to let mankind know that the Quran was a miracle.
I suggest everyone should understand one thing before we continue, each and everyone of us who has been sent down on this earth are all vicegerants of God, which means each one of us has a part of God in us, that is why we are so different from the animals, also regognise that in the end our souls will exit from our throats and then the curtains will be lifted from our eyes and what we will see is not magic but the true reality, you should all understand that all of us have been sent to this world for a determined time and once that time is over there is none who can change it.
Unfortunately today what has occured is something that all the prophets of God had warned us about, and that was forming sects, each religion claims that they are correct, without understanding the true principle that there is only One God, he does not Beget nor was He Begotton and There is None comparable to him whatsoever.
The 21st century is a time where if people are not made to understand and recognise the true reality then Satan has enveloped all of mankid to suit his own desires, which as you have all noticed all over the world, it is his patrons who rule the world, by feeding all the goyims lies and deceits, so that they can stray far away from the truth.
Most of the prophets who descended to this world always faced the same problems that we are facing today, do you see any remnants of the previous generations or even hear a whisper of them?
Understand that the young generation are the ones who are vulnerable and are subjected to complete delusion about the life of the world, therefore it is imperative that all of you regognise the truth before a day comes when the children's hair will be hoary headed.
The rules are that there are no Rules
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2009 at 02:43
There will be no preaching on this forum. Posts will be hidden and examined, if they look like they cross the line.

Ogmios read our CoC before posting
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