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Forum LockedThe Early Byzantine Military (306-610)

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Post Options Post Options   Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Early Byzantine Military (306-610)
    Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 17:21
Nestorian, themes in time of peace were commanded by the civilian head (Dux, Doukas) and the military (Strategos). In times of war or other crisis the Strategos assumed overall command of the entire theme.


Edited by konstantinius - 26-Aug-2006 at 19:45
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Post Options Post Options   Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 17:26
Digeni,
Clibanarii was more of a weapon designation than the name of a particular unit. Both Tagmatic and Thematic cavalry units had a detachment of heavy, shock cavalry (Klivaviof-o-roi)  including, as you correctly point out, the Ikanatoi.


Edited by konstantinius - 26-Aug-2006 at 17:38
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Post Options Post Options   Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 17:34
Rider,

Tagma ton Varangion means "the Tagma of the Varangians". The reference pertains to the Varangian Guard obviously, I'm not sure whether the Varangians were actually part of the Tagmata. Interesting reference.


Edited by konstantinius - 26-Aug-2006 at 17:43
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Post Options Post Options   Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 19:17
Nestorian,about your list:
Byzantine titles and names are very confusing because they change meaning over the centuries, Emperor invent similar-sounding new titles,  and territory and the military shrink as the Empire declines (i.e,  titles become obsolete in later years).  You have collected an amazing amalgam of names, a lot of which  I'm not sure about .  I'll go down your list and try to do my best

--Basilikon vs. Basilikoi: basically the same thing, one is the plural of the other. The header sentence should look like this:
Basilikos Tagmatikos Hippeas (singular)
Basilikoi Tagmatikoi Hippeis (plural), not Basilikos Tagmatikoi Hippeis.

Clivanoforos means the "wearer of the klibanio--the heavy, quilted armor for horse and rider". Immediatelly below in terms of heaviness of armor and quality of equipment would  the kataphraktos  (kataphraktoi  plural), "all-armored".   Last the kavalarios (oi), "horse-mounting", with lamellar/scale corselet, shield, sword, mace, bow/arrow,dagger. The light-armed cavalryman (no armor, a few throwing spears, one long, round shield, sword) was called a Trapezitos (oi). This was native light cavalry raised when needed and would not have been part of the prestigious Tagmata.
I believe that every tagmatic unit would've comprised of different proportions of the first three classes and it's doubtful whether you should list Clibanophoroi under "Basilikoi Tagmatikoi Hippeis" as its own category.

Not very certain about the infantry list;


post to be updated, please look back  


Edited by konstantinius - 28-Aug-2006 at 03:56
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 19:22
Originally posted by Nestorian

So do I use Hippeis or Kavallarioi???
 
Kavallarioi (plural) is the Greek word that was specifically given to the Latin mercenary cavalry.  It is an appropriation of the Latin Caballarii (plural).  Hippeus (singular, hippeis: plural) is a more generalized Greek word for cavalry.  It does not really say anything about the type - light or heavily armed.
 
Originally posted by Nestorian

And is it Basilikon or Basilikoi?
 
This depends on the gender of the word it is describing.  Basilikon is describing a royal/imperial "thing," so it is neuter.  Basilikoi is describing some royal/imperial men (masculine).
 
Edit: Just noticed that our friend Konstantinius already filled us in on the Greek.  Good work! Smile
 
Originally posted by Nestorian

At Byzantine Emperor

 

Greetings Megalos Basileus!!

 

Varangians who did not make the Varangian Guard in the capital were sent to the provinces, probably to a Dux of a particular theme. There are mentions of Varangians in the provinces and not in the Emperor’s presence. Can’t remember the source though.  L

 

Yep, logistics will be represented by “military warehouses” that requisition (by increasing revenue extracting power by the city). They also increase loyalty and public order penalties because of the unpopularity of requisitioning. Evil Protonotarios :P

Greetings!
 
About the Varangians, I can see how they would be sent to the provinces to assist the Dux or Kephale.  They would also be making the presence of the emperor known to deter rebellion.  What I was saying is that I don't think provincial officials were given their own Varangian bodyguard.  See if you can find the source.
 
What are some of the other buildings you are looking to add?  It will be interesting to see what you come up with for blacksmiths and armor-making centers.  This is something that interests me greatly, especially in the late period, where there is scant mentioning of blacksmiths and technology in the sources.  Check out my thread on the subject here (I include a list of sources):
 
 


Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 26-Aug-2006 at 19:37
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 20:38
@Konstantinius
My Greek is none existent, so I expect people to correct which is the case in this thread which I'm happy about. :D I know titles change often, but because of the restrictions of the game script/code, we can't change these titles often.
 
Also keep in mind such titles changes can be due to political decline and lack of resources to maintain particular units, but since this is a game where you can change of history and where because of political strength and ample resources, one can retain units who were historically extinct or changed into another unit. That is the precarious balance for our modification team: historical accuracy and integrating options for "what ifs" while still staying historically conservative.
 
I included the Klibs as under the Imperial Tagmata because the sheer cost of equipment meant that like the other Imperial Tagmata troops, they were equipped by the central government who were likely to provide the best equipment.
 
@Byzantine EMperor
Oh ok gotcha, lol, I never had in mind the provincial VG's as provincial official's own VG. Only as provincial detachments to the themes under a provincial official rather than on a personal basis.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 22:06
Originally posted by Nestorian

Also keep in mind such titles changes can be due to political decline and lack of resources to maintain particular units, but since this is a game where you can change of history and where because of political strength and ample resources, one can retain units who were historically extinct or changed into another unit. That is the precarious balance for our modification team: historical accuracy and integrating options for "what ifs" while still staying historically conservative.
 
I think with military units the names were consistent with the unit's function and armament.  Klibanophoroi and Kataphraktoi were the heavily-armed cavalry from their inception to whenever they died out (this is debatable).  The Pronoiar cavalry took over as a medium-heavily armed cavalry, though probably not as heavy as the previous two.
 
Infantry and archers had their own specialized names that pretty much reflected their uses and armament.  In the later period they took on names that reflected their ethnicities.
 
Where we see a detachment of names from their functions is in the case of certain military titles.  We discussed many examples of these in my late Byzantine military thread.
 
For the game I think it will be great to bring the element of "what-if" into the overall historical accuracy.  I can't wait to conquer the New World with the Byzantines in MTW2!  Big smile
 
Originally posted by Nestorian

I included the Klibs as under the Imperial Tagmata because the sheer cost of equipment meant that like the other Imperial Tagmata troops, they were equipped by the central government who were likely to provide the best equipment.
 
Yes, and correctly so.  Nikephoros Phokas enacted a series of land reforms whereby the allotments of the Theme cavalry were increased to allow them to upgrade to and maintain heavier armor.  These new cavalrymen served as the basis for the heavy tagmatic cavalry, I believe.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 02:26

I love Klibs, I can't wait to show u guys a series of concepts I've done for them and also for the Basilikoi Tagmatikoi Hippeis (I'll use Basilikoi then, its great to clear that bit up, I was very unsure of which rendering to use).

I'll check the metalworking part today.
 
As for whether the Varangians were part of the Tagmata? I think they would as Tagmata were the professional elements of the Byzantine army, and thus would be considered a Tagmata or if translated to Greek, a "body", but a professional elite "body" so to speak.
 
If I recall correctly, the Varangians did not exactly have "Varangian Guard" as a description of their corps. What would u guys consider a more appropiate title descriptor?
 
Rider suggested:
Tagma ton Varangoi
 
I recommended :
Varangoi Hetaeraeia
Varangoi Pelekephoroi
 
 
I like the title of Hetaeraeia as that was the title of another Tagmata called the "Hetaeraeia and described as companions of the Emperor because of their proximity to the Emperor. It seems the Varangians have become the new "Hetaeraeia" of the Byzantines.
 
By the way, the Byzantine will be called "Basileia Rhomaion" in the game, I use the term "Byzantine" because its just convenient :P
 
Im glad you like the balance of "realism" and "what if",  I was afraid people were going to hate it.
 
Although, I am going to develop a system where you still recruit historical late period Byzantine troops if ur empire is not as strong or declining. But to recruit the 'what if" troops, you reach a certain level of political strength and financial strength.
 
I already have a concept of intriguiing "what if" units, not 100% sure of implementing it but fun to imagine on paper. :D
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 03:13
Konstantinos, I'd prefer if you'd not post five or six posts in a row, but rather incorporate them into a single one.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 05:54
Byzantine sources used words that are non-existant or not used anymore in modern greek language.
 
Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus prefered in his accounts, the word Kavallarikoi instead of  Kavallarioi. The word Kavallarikoi is not used anymore in Greek.
 
Kataphraktoi were called in a few sources, such as the one of the historian Leo the Diakon (deacon)  Pansidiroi Hippotes. Neither the latter is used in modern greek. 
 
Rider suggested:
Tagma ton Varangoi
 
I recommended :
Varangoi Hetaeraeia
Varangoi Pelekephoroi
 
In order to be accurate in greek language, the first one should be, 'Tagma ton Varangon'.
 
The second should be 'Hetaeria ton Varangon' and the last one as it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 07:21
What does Hetaireia ton Varangon translate to?
 
Companions of the Varangians? Companions from the Varangians?
 
Jus curious
 
And what is "Eidikon"?? is it a bank of some kind?
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 10:18
Originally posted by Nestorian

What does Hetaireia ton Varangon translate to?
 
Companions of the Varangians? Companions from the Varangians?
 
Jus curious
 
And what is "Eidikon"?? is it a bank of some kind?
 
 
 
 
You could translate it as Companion/fellowship of Varangians.
 
Eidikon has the meaning of special/expert. It depends on the use.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 11:04
On the kavallarioi/hippeis matter:

Its obviously just a matter of language used by different sources.
Both mean "cavalry men".
Hippeis is the most ancient/formal type ,used gy scholars-Kavallarioi is the most common and popular during middle ages.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 12:07
Lol, I'll stick with Hippeis then since its an archaic term and Byzantines just LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE archaicizing their descriptions......
 
As for the Varangians, I think I'm using "Varangoi Pelekephoroi" because "Pelekephoroi" was a vernacular term in the sources in describing their use of axes (and yes, i know they used other weapons so don
't bother reminding me about it), and I'm not making variants of Varangian units with different weapons, it would really be  a waste of unit limits in the MTW2 hardcode limits. It would nice to use Hetaereia but 'Pelekephoroi" was a more common term.
 
As for Eidikon, it is used in conjunction with a particular institution for releasing and keeping funds in a themata and is related to resource management for expeditions and campaigning armies.
I'm guessing its a bank of some kind because of such usage.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2006 at 03:48
"Pelekyphoroi" means "axe-bearing". There is reference to the Varangians in some Greek  sources as the "axe-bearing barbarians".
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2006 at 14:50
Nestorian, have you read LotR? And do you have any more online-pictures? To make these two questions similiar, do you have any LotR drawings?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2006 at 00:29
Thematikoi Hoplitai
http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thematikoihoplitaifm0.jpg

The thematic infantry in this time period is in dire straits. Deprived of sustenance and their pay, they have been allowed to decay. However, while being ignored, these infantrymen have kept themselves busy on their lands as farmers. Their physique is maintained through hunting and hard labour. They carry a spear, shield and sword as basic equipment. IN fact, they are lucky if they have even these three together.

http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thematikoitagmatikoihoplitaiandthematikoitoxotaiwe9.jpg

The Skoutatoi in the top left corner represents the majority of the heavy infantry of Byzantium. Leather/padded corselets and leather/felt caps are commonly used as defensive panoply. For weapons they carry a kontos (4-4.5metres though not portrayed in the drawing), a spatha and a kite-shaped shield.

The Skoutatoi at the bottom represents the heavy infantry that ideally equipped according to the sources. He wears a Klibanion of banded lamellar with pteruges and a lamellar plates covering his upper arm. For his limbs he wears the common splinted type. His helmet is a simply construction with a mail aventail hood attached to it.

THe archer iin the top right corner represents purposefully trained and recruited archers. Again, represented ideally if the equipment is available. He wears padded armour and is equipped with a composite bow, quiver, spatha, handaxe and a small shield. His helmet is of leather construction with padded aventail.
 
http://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imaginarykataphraktoixs7.jpg

Please don't take this as a concept for a unit in MTR:AOA, it is just for fun.
What if Byzantium never declined after 1071? Could they have produced Kataphraktoi influenced by western and eastern influences in the 1350s?
WHo knows. Its just for fun
 
And no I dont have any LOTR stuff :p


Edited by Nestorian - 29-Aug-2006 at 11:14
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2006 at 15:04
Originally posted by Nestorian

Please don't take this as a concept for a unit in MTR:AOA, it is just for fun.
What if Byzantium never declined after 1071? Could they have produced Kataphraktoi influenced by western and eastern influences in the 1350s?
WHo knows. Its just for fun
 
But these ideas might be used for the "what-if" aspect of the mod!  If theoretically you play the game right and Byzantium lives on into the late 15th and early 16th centuries, we need to think what the military units might look like and from where they derive influence. 
 
In the late period, for all we know, the kataphraktoi might have survived in one form or another.  If they did survive, there could be several possibilities as to what they wore and were armed with.
 
Perhaps the kataphraktoi of the late period were the kavallarioi.  In this case they would have a heavy Western influence or would be Western European themselves.  The latter is more likely since they were Latin mercenaries or Byzantinized Latins.  The Eastern influence on heavy cavalry is less likely, since the Turks had mostly light-armed cavalry and horse archers.  If they were influenced by the East in armor, it would probably be from the Mongols.  Some 14th and 15th century icon representations show soldiers wearing plate half-armor in the Mongol style.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2006 at 22:18
bump* Byz. Emp. chek ur PM
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Red4tribe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 22:15
The Byzantine Military was the strongest in the Mederteranian region during this time period.The succusefully conquered virtually the entire coast of the sea by 565 AD.The military went into decline untill the Macedonian dynasty when BasilII led the emprie to it's greatest hight in 500 years.After that the Military ent into a slow decline untill 1453 when they were conquered.
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