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Forum LockedThe Early Byzantine Military (306-610)

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Post Options Post Options   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Early Byzantine Military (306-610)
    Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 05:07
I doubt the term 'Kavallarioi' was used much by Byzantines. Something along (a speculator am I) Basilikon Tagmata [insert name here]...
 
That picture is SSSSSSSSOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO impressive. I can't stop wtching it. Do you have a gallery: please say you do. I will contact you certainly now.
 
Actually, I have heard of Medieval: Total Realism. I still go much to SCC but I nowadays try more to see what the FOurth Age and Chivalry have done in the time. M2TR doesn't have a SCC Forum, does it? What is it's forum then? 
 
Tell us what units you do know and then we can help you out.
 
BTW, the unit list of Romaiki Aftokratia was out somehwere. I'll try to find it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 05:11

Originally posted by Romaiki Aftokratia

Military Tech Tree

Militia

Police - phylakes(urban militia)
Imperial Police - Tzakones guardsmen, +10% law

Archery
Bowyer – Psiloi, Pezoi Toxotai(after 1328)
Archery Range - Psiloi toxotai, Solenarios(till Late Era)
Bowyer’s Workshop - Peltastoi
Master Bowyer - Peltastoi Enoplioi
Huge Archery Range -Mourtatoi(till High Era)

Barracks
Spearmaker - Skoutatoi, Epirote Greek Infantry(AoR in Epirhus)
Spearmaker Workshop - Kontaratoi
Spearmaker's Guild - Paramonai,
Master swordsmith – Menevlatoi(till High Era)
Imperial Swordsmith – Dismounted Kataphraktoi(till Late Era)

Stables
Stables - Trapezeountae,Turkopouloi(AoR Arab provinces)
Cavalry stables - Latinikon Tagmata(will disappear after 1204), Hippeis Toxotai
Military Stables – Stratiotai(till Late Era), Kataphraktoi(till High Era)
Elite cavalry stables – Athanatoi Immortals, Klibanophoroi, Pronoia Allagia(after 1204)(till High Era)
Imperial Cavalry Stables – Tagmata Klibanophoroi, Tagmata Kataphraktoi(till High Era)


Imperial Palace – Imperial Varangian Guards(huge city)

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 09:55

I looked at it before, but I preferred to use my own list though.

I listed the following for the middle period:

In generic names:

 

Imperial Tagmatic Cavalry:

Scholae (The Schools)

Excubitores (The Watchmen)

Arithmos (The Numbers)

Hikanatoi (The Able Ones)

Klibanophoroi

Latinikon Tagmata

 

Imperial Tagmatic Infantry:

Numeroi (The Bathhouse Boys)

Optimatoi (The Best Ones)

Tagma Ton Teikhon (of the Walls)

Varangian Guard

 

Provincial Tagmatic Cavalry:

Tagmatic Kataphraktoi

Tagmatic Kavallarioi

 

Provincial Tagmatic Infantry:

Tagmatic Skoutatoi

Tagmatic Menaulatoi

 

Thematic Infantry:

Thematic Infantry

Peltastos

Psiloi

Levy slingers

Levy archers

Levy Javelineers

 

Thematic Cavalry:

Prokursatores – native lancers

Hyperkerastai – native horse archers

Trapezitoi – native javelineers

 

I don't have a "gallery" as such...



Edited by Nestorian - 21-Aug-2006 at 10:00
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 14:37
Originally posted by rider

I doubt the term 'Kavallarioi' was used much by Byzantines. Something along (a speculator am I) Basilikon Tagmata [insert name here]...
 
The kavallarioi were used extensively by the Nicaean emperors, hence the development of the organization of the Latinikon in the army.  Michael VIII Palaiologos was fond of mercenaries of all stripes and brought the kavallarioi into the restored Byzantine military after 1261.  His son Andronikos II might have used them, although they declined in importance due to his distaste for Michael's unionist religious policy.  The kavallarioi might have survived in the regional Megala Allagia units.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 16:22
But you don't have Klibinaroiphoi as a separate unit? This because lack of information as if it indeed did exist separate or not? I would say it did.
 
As a gallery I tried to find out if you had a place where your images are uploaded in the internet. Perhaps create one at Photobucket for our sake to admire them?
 
Have you drawn any other historical units? Maybe the triarii (I am very fascinated about them, I can almost hear someone shouting: Ad triarios rediisse! and then few maniples marchign forward with all haste) or Companion cavalry?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 23:38
Are you saying I shouldnt have the Klibanophori as a separate unit or did I not mention it in my unit list??
 
My units are restricted to mainly Byzantines.
 
So if Kavallarioi is not used, what Greek word is used describe cavalry then?


Edited by Nestorian - 21-Aug-2006 at 23:39
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 09:28
You didn't mention it in your list as far as I can see, is what I wanted to say.
 
Trust Emperor in case of Kavallarioi, I said I am wrong in that one.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 11:11
Lol, I did list the Klibanophori under the Imperial Tagmatic Heavy Cavalry section. Can u see it?
 
So do I use Hippeis or Kavallarioi???
 
And is it Basilikon or Basilikoi?
 
Right now MTR's HQ is at www.totalwar.org, in fact we have a list of all the concept art we've done so far....
 
Im up to my armpits in research byzantine economy, city structure...it sucks researching everything by myself :(
 
All concept work is very slow at the moment, and in fact, i'm sharing my time between lots of other concepts too....
 
At the moment, I have:
 
Hyperakerastai
Trapezitoi
Prokoursatores
KLibanophori
Kataphraktoi
Hikanatoi
Varangians
Imperial Tagmatic Infantrymen
 
in the works...
 
Im tired and exhausted so everything is slowwwwww hehehe
 
I would appreciate it if people here came up with a comphrensive list of Byzantine units with short descriptions or at least joining MTR as a team member/research and helping to implement proposed modifications into MTW2
 
 


Edited by Nestorian - 22-Aug-2006 at 11:21
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 13:36
I can see it indeed.
 
So do I use Hippeis or Kavallarioi???
 
And is it Basilikon or Basilikoi?
 
BE knows the answer to this.
 
I would appreciate it if people here came up with a comphrensive list of Byzantine units with short descriptions
 
This is actually the easier part than to join as a researcher. Well, if BE starts then we all others shall continue. Ofcourse, I think that we should first ask what timeline you do use.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 00:00
1066 - 1453, perhaps 1492 (the mod's length)
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 12:32
Any Greek want to correct the following? Please!!
My mind is in spirals pronouncing Greek words...Sleepy
 
Basilikon Tagmatikoi Hippeis

Scholae (The Schools)

Excubitores (The Watchmen)

Arithmos (The Numbers)

Hikanatoi (The Able Ones)

Klibanophoroi

 

Basilikon Tagmatikoi Hoplitai:

Numeroi (The Bathhouse Boys)

Optimatoi (The Best Ones)

Tagma Ton Teikhon (of the Walls)

Varangoi Hetaeraia or Varangoi Pelekephoroi  (Varangoi denotes foreigner not the Guard unit so I used terms like Hetaeraia or Pelekephoroi as terms of distinction)

 
Note:
There also provincial Varangian Guard soldiers, not sure if I want to implement them or not. 
 

Thematikoi Tagmatikoi Hippeis :

Thematikoi Tagmata Kataphraktoi

Thematikoi Tagmatikoi Kontaratoi (lancers)

 

Note: Provincial Tagmatic soldiers are Thematic soldiers who are regular full-time permanent professional soldiers of the Theme. Unlike other Thematic soldiers who are part-timers.

 

Thematikoi Tagmatikoi Hoplitai:

Skoutatoi

Menaulatoi

 

Thematikoi Hoplitai

Thematikoi Hoplitai Kontaratoi (foot spearman)

Thematikoi Peltastoi

Thematikoi Toxotai

Taxeis Sphendonetai

Taxeis Toxotai

Taxeis Akontistai

 
Notes: 
Taxeis denotes levy, or obligation, call up to service.
Kontaratoi indicates particular weapon and function.
 

Thematikoi Hippeis:

Prokoursatores – native lancers

Hyperkerastai Hippotoxotai – native horse archers

Trapezitoi Hippakontistai – native javelineers

 
 
So what do you think Byzantine EMperor? Would you accept an invitation to joing MTR:AOA as a researcher?
 
IN MTR we have a position of a head researcher, basically a head researcher leads a research team for a particular faction.
 
Its not a full time job and there is plenty of time before MTW2 to complete the research.
 
As you know I have my hands full with research and formulating technology trees and gameplay features.
 
Currently, I am thinking of buildings that represrent Byzantium's logistical mechanisms.
 
Clap


Edited by Nestorian - 23-Aug-2006 at 12:38
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 15:36
I am afraid that BE has his hands full studying his second or first course. Can't answer for him though.
 
Couldn't you name them perhaps:
 
Tagma ton Varangion?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 18:14
Originally posted by Nestorian

 
Basilikon Tagmatikoi Hippeis

Scholae (The Schools)

Excubitores/Excubites (The Watchmen)

Foideratoi (The City Guards)

Arithmos (The Numbers)

Hikanatoi (The Able Ones)

Klibanophoroi

 

Basilikon Tagmatikoi Hoplitai:

Numeroi/Noumerarioi (The Bathhouse Boys)

Optimatoi (The Best Ones)

Tagma Ton Teikhon (of the Walls)

Varangoi Hetaeria or Varangoi Pelekephoroi  (Varangoi denotes foreigner not the Guard unit so I used terms like Hetaeraia or Pelekephoroi as terms of distinction)

Varangoi Koulpiggoi
Druzina (Russians) 
Megali Katalaniki Hetaeria
Hetaeria Navarraion
 
Note:
There also provincial Varangian Guard soldiers, not sure if I want to implement them or not. 
 
Special Forces 
Akritai/Horophylakai (Border sentinels)
Apelatai (Irregular army)
Boukellarioi (Cavalry)
 

Thematikoi Tagmatikoi Hippeis :

Thematikoi Tagmata Kataphraktoi/kataphraktarioi

Thematikoi Tagmatikoi Kontaratoi (lancers)

 

Note: Provincial Tagmatic soldiers are Thematic soldiers who are regular full-time permanent professional soldiers of the Theme. Unlike other Thematic soldiers who are part-timers.

 

Thematikoi Tagmatikoi Hoplitai:

Skoutatoi/Skouteratoi/Hoplitai *essentially these three were the same

Menaulatoi

 

Thematikoi Hoplitai

Thematikoi Hoplitai Kontaratoi (foot spearman)

Thematikoi Peltastai/Peltai

Thematikoi Toxotai

Pelekiphoroi (those using axes)
Vardoukion (men using cudgels [greek: vardoukion])

Taxeis Sphendonistai/Sfendovolistai

Taxeis Toxotai/Sagittatorai

Taxeis Akontistai

 
Notes: 
Taxeis denotes levy, or obligation, call up to service.
Kontaratoi indicates particular weapon and function.
 

Thematikoi Hippeis:

Prokoursatores – native lancers

Hyperkerastai Hippotoxotai – native horse archers

Trapezitae Hippakontistai – native javelineers

 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 21:12
Originally posted by Nestorian

There also provincial Varangian Guard soldiers, not sure if I want to implement them or not.
 
Which period is this?  I thought the Varangians were exclusively the emperor's bodyguard in Constantinople.  Exarchs, kephalai, and other provincial governors probably had their own bodyguards, but the Varangians in the Hetaireiai were based out of the City.
 
Originally posted by Nestorian

Currently, I am thinking of buildings that represrent Byzantium's logistical mechanisms.
 
This sounds quite interesting.  I, for one, am interested in reconstructing Byzantine logistics and functional buildings, or at least discussing what they may have been like, since the Byzantine primary sources are relatively silent or undetailed about facets of everyday life.
 
I would encourage you to start a separate topic on this in the Medieval Forum of AE. It doesn't have to be specifically geared towards the game, but instead focused on Byzantine buildings, their functions, and the specialists who worked in them.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 21:49
I am sure, if it would contain valuable information, it could be stickied too in time.
 
Interesting, we have an book called 'Bütsantsi inimene' on sale in Estonia. I, not especially into social history, have not looked it, but it might be useful in such topic.
 
Note: 'Bütsantsi inimene' translates as 'Person/Citizen/People of Byzantine Empire'
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 04:08

At Perseas

 

Thanks for the Greek renderings

 

However, units like Akritai are descriptors of function rather than a specific unit. Such functions can be fulfilled by already existing units of light cavalry who were “Akritai” by function. Moreover, the Akritai receded in this time period, but make a comeback during the 13th centuries in Anatolia with the resettlement of Alans, Cumans, etc, etc in Western Asia Minor.

 

What is Koulpiggoi???

 

By the way this unit list is for early period 1066 – 1118, so I won’t include the Catalans and the Navarrese yet.

 

However , the Druzhina is interesting though.

 

At Byzantine Emperor

 

Greetings Megalos Basileus!!

 

Varangians who did not make the Varangian Guard in the capital were sent to the provinces, probably to a Dux of a particular theme. There are mentions of Varangians in the provinces and not in the Emperor’s presence. Can’t remember the source though.  L

 

Yep, logistics will be represented by “military warehouses” that requisition (by increasing revenue extracting power by the city). They also increase loyalty and public order penalties because of the unpopularity of requisitioning. Evil Protonotarios :P

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 07:02
Originally posted by Nestorian

At Perseas

 

Thanks for the Greek renderings

 

However, units like Akritai are descriptors of function rather than a specific unit. Such functions can be fulfilled by already existing units of light cavalry who were “Akritai” by function. Moreover, the Akritai receded in this time period, but make a comeback during the 13th centuries in Anatolia with the resettlement of Alans, Cumans, etc, etc in Western Asia Minor

 
What is Koulpiggoi???
 

By the way this unit list is for early period 1066 – 1118, so I won’t include the Catalans and the Navarrese yet.

 

However , the Druzhina is interesting though.

 
Hello Nestorian,
 
I missed the part that the list was about the period 1066 - 1118.
 
Koulpiggoi were Varangians that arrived as mercenaries to Byzantium, during the late 11th c. in the Komneni army. If i remember right, their name derives from the old skandinavian word "kylfingar" which has as its root the word "Kylfa". Kylfa means the club and the use of club instead of pelekis was the main difference between Koulpiggoi and the rest of Varangians.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 15:08
Hello all, I'm somewhat taken aback by the fierceness by which people like their Byzantines on this Forum!! Excellent discussion so far, let me add my 2 cents:

-On the Tagmata (by the way, in modern Greek "tagma" literally means battalion and "tagmatarhis" in the Greek army of today is literally the rank of major):
The Tagmata provided the nucleus of the Byzantine army, were exclusively cavalry, were separate from the Thematic troops, and generally were based in Constantinople itself or its immediate vicinity. Four basic units of the Tagmata are recorded, the letter(s) within hyphens denoting where the emphasis should be placed when the word is pronounced in Greek:
--Schol-ai- (this is pronouned "e" as the "e" in "emporium"), the most senior and probably the oldest and most veteran of the Tagmata. There seems to have been more than one Scholai, seven of them are recorded in the early 5th century "Noticia Dignitatum" and Byzantine chronicler Procopius tells us that the Scholai of his day (6th-7th c. AD) totalled 3,500 men,way too many for just one unit.
--Excubitii (unknown word, Latin in origin), next in seniority. Established by Leo I (457-474 AD).
--Arithm-o-s or V-i-gla ("Number" or "Watch", the latter name occuring most in sources). On campaign the Vigla guarded the Emperor's tent at night and was in charge of prisoners of war.
--Ikanat-oi- (the "Ables", -oi- pronounced as the "ea" in "eat"), by far the youngest of the Tagmata having been established by Nikephoros I Phokas (802-811 AD).
Each of the Tagmata was commanded by a Domestik-o-s, except of the Arithmos or Vigla commanded by a Droung-a-rios. Each of these officers had a Topotiret-e-s as his second in command. By the 10th c. the Domestic of the Scholae had become the most senior army  officer and would assume C-in-C  in the absence of the Emperor; the only other military person that superseded the Domestic of the Scholae was the strategos of the elite and key Anatolik-o-n ("Eastward") theme, roughly the area SE and SW of modern Afyon in Turkey. This is also the post (Domestic of the Scholai, that is) that Alexios Komnenos held in 1078 prior to his becoming Emperor; of course the Scholai of his day were very different than  the same units during the peak of Byzantine power since now, as Anna Komnena tells us, they consisted of a large number of Frankish mercenaries.
On campaign the Domestic of the Excubitii also seems to have been responsible for the men called skr-i-vones,  medical orderlies attached to thematic units.
There's debate as to how many men served in the Tagmatic units. The Arab chronicler Ibn-Khordadbah places Tagmatic strength at 6,000 men and 6,000  servants  but it is not clear whether the figure of 6,000 applies to the overall strength of all Tagmata or to the strength of each tagmatic unit. An overall strength of 6,000 (1500 per tagma), however, seems to agree with another anonymous 10th c. source, the "Anonymus Vari" which says that the Scholarii consisted of thirty banda which (the bandon being 50-men strong by the time of Nikephorus II) would put the total at 1,500 cavalry. The same Anonymous Vari (c. 980) says that when on campaign the Emperor would be accompanied by a minimum of 8,200 cavalrymen which would give a minimum of roughly 2,000 per regiment.
Included in the Tagmata  were the Numeri (4,000) and Hetairia, infantry formations permanently based in  Constantinople perhaps as the permanent garrison of the City.
It wouldn't be unusual for detachments of the Tagmata to serve in the provinces; we know, i.e., that provincial detachments commanded by Topotiretes (Domesticos' lieutenents) were posted  in Macedonia, Thrace and the Opsikion  (the area across the straits from Constantinople) theme.

--The Varangian  Guard
"Varangian" was used to generally describe men from the North. It might derive from the old Nordic "var, meaning pledge, used to describe  a band of men bount together by oaths of loyalty and sharing of the booty among them. Rus troops were sent as tributary contingents after the Russ defeat and abortive attack on the City in the 860's, but were not instituted as a regular unit in Byzantine pay untill 988 when Basil II received 6,000 from the Prince of Kiev; these troops were proved to be such fierce fighters and so loyal (according to Psellus Basil "distrusted the treacherous disposition of the Romans themselves") that Basil established them as his bodyguard. In the years immediately following Hastings an increasing number of Anglo-Saxons and Anglo-Danes seem to have migrated South and mixed with the original Nordic element of the Guard.
The commander of the Varangians had his own title in the Byzantine ceremonial, that of Ak-o-louthos, Acolyte or "Follower" denoting his great proximity to the Emperor. We have the namesof several Akolouthoi such as Ragnald, an 11th c. Swede, whose tombstone describes as "the leader of the war-troop in the land of the Greeks" and Nampites, Akolouthos in the 1080s, a Scandinavian nickname for "Biter of Corpses" or "Bird of Prey". Another famous Varangian-though never an Akolouthos- was Harald Haraldra who held a senior rank in the Guard and commanded 500 men.

more on the Theme system etc to follow

Note: all this information has come exclusively from Ian Heath's and Angus McBride's "Byzantine Armies, 886-1118" part of Osprey's "Men-at-Arms Series".


Edited by konstantinius - 27-Aug-2006 at 21:21
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 15:18
i am really glad that discussion for Byzantium is on fire !Smile
I participated in "Byzantium Total War" ,and i assure you that the research work there was really good.
The lack of skinners and modellers was partially cause of the high specification of the mod (only "byzantinists" and few Bulgarians were really interested(!)).
I hope there will be great job on MTRealism.
Unfortunately these days i have almost zero time for new research.

The list of BTW units is accurate.

I have some objections in your list Nestorian.
1st.I think "Tagmatic" refers to army of the Capital.Its the opposite of "Thematic".
Themata and Tagmata are different military units,so "thematic tagmatic" is oxymoron.

2nd:U must chosse:either to create units according to the real military division(ex the different tagmatic units) or according to their armament-type (klibanarioi,kataphraktoi etc.).
(for ex. Ikanatoi were klibanarioi,so there cant be both "clibanarioi" and "ikanatoi")

Anyway,your effort is really nice!
Glory of Romani'a rises up again !ClapSmile
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 15:50
Nestorian,
 
If the list is strictly between 1066 – 1118, neither Druzhina fit in that period. I made a research and it seems the last time they were used in Byzantine army, was 1054.  This was the year, Yaroslav the wise died and his successors stopped providing mercenaries to Byzantines.
 
Konstantinius,
 
Scholai were initially twelve. Among them, five were solely for the Western and seven for the Eastern part of the empire. Each one had a number of 500 men called Scholarioi.
 
 
A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
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