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Forum LockedThe Downfall of Western Societies ?

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ulrich von hutten View Drop Down
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    Posted: 24-May-2006 at 09:20

The downfall of the western societies, concomitant by the economic success of the stock corporations.

A discussion about the collapse of modern societies and its origin is held currently in many western European countries. Riots of Arabian migrants in France , violent students in Germany, break apart of the traditional families, the care of elder and disabled people ,all this are questions ,which affect the public discussion.

Especially in Germany, where a huge unemployment in the most parts of east and some in the west alarmed the society. But nearly at the same time the news are announcing a new record for the numbers of unemployed people, the speaker of a great stock corporation is glad to announce gains of all departments and looks forward to some further dismissals.

Values which applied one generation ago are today unknown or no one   might remember to them.

Kids are growing up without learning to respect each other, egoism is on the agenda. The thresholds for violence are going down rapidly. Schools with overstrained teachers are only a place of keeping and a training camp for new practices of bodily harm and heavy insults.

The society is looking to this speechless, shocked but with no any idea of an answer.

Meanwhile managers are trained in being successful, effective and undeviating. Experts of the world of economy are explaining that the globalisation costs it price. And this price has to be paid by the inflexible one.

The human being as a disturbing, expanse factor? Services with no server? An Upper-class that needs the middle - and under-class as its doormat?

A third world that doesn’t exist anymore in the minds of the politicians ? And if it exists, then as a market that must be squeezed out.

As you might realise , many words for a fast –taverne poster , but a theme that is close to my heart . and I hope komnenos isn’t to draconic with my English.

 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2006 at 17:56
The only threat to the West is that it is going to be overrun by Asia, in physical numbers(population) and also in economic influence and power. The West is holding its old-time power and glory while Asia is rapidly gaining more and more power and glory.

I wouldn't mind an Asian dominated world in some way, they have always been the smartest of us all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2006 at 19:25
one might say that the western society is decaying because its "too free", parents and governments have lost the hold over the young, and these young people have to grow up and lead the western scoiety. I doubt however that Asia will get the upper hand anytime soon, mainly because the East can not survive without the money and the market of the west, the first to crash being China...too many goods no one to buy,

anyway thats my ominous version of the future Stern Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2006 at 19:30
I do not believe in the "downfall" of Western societies.
 
Politically, economically, and culturally speaking, we are seeing the emergence of a more diverse world with different regional centres of importance that are interconnected with one another.
 
Socially-speaking, a lot of the so-called "ills" in "Western societies" that Ulrich mentions are the inevitable consequences of affluence, demographic changes, and increasing globalization. They are not unique to Western countries; the only thing is that Western countries may be experiencing them before others because of the higher and more mature level of economic and political development. (I know I am talking like a typical "modernization theorist" whose ideas I do not necessarily embrace - but that's a topic for another thread ...)
 
Just take the so-called "breakdown" of "traditional" families as an example. First of all, I don't see that as a necessarily bad thing because as society progresses, the definition of what constitutes a family also changes. Second, the changing nature of the family that one has been witnessing in the "West" is also increasing seen in other parts of the world, especially in countries that are beginning to catch up with the West when it comes to economic development.
 
Take the concept of "filial piety" that so many Eastern cultures are famous for as an example. Over and over again, I've heard many people from affluent Asian countries telling me that they are seeing fewer and fewer people from the younger generation embracing such a tradition. As a matter of fact, compared to many Southern European cultures where the family still plays an extremely important role throughout an individual's entire life, modern East Asian cultures may have become even more individualistic and self-centered.   
 


Edited by flyingzone - 27-May-2006 at 19:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Winterhaze13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2006 at 19:38
Originally posted by Kalevipoeg Kalevipoeg wrote:

The only threat to the West is that it is going to be overrun by Asia, in physical numbers(population) and also in economic influence and power. The West is holding its old-time power and glory while Asia is rapidly gaining more and more power and glory.

I wouldn't mind an Asian dominated world in some way, they have always been the smartest of us all.
 
How the hell can you prove that? Human beings are the same everywhere. Europeans have their Renaissance, democracy and enlightenment. Arabic technology in the middle ages was second to none, now they are far behind. The levels of sophisication changes over the centuries, it means absolutely nothing. So, stop making such rediculous claims.


Edited by Winterhaze13 - 27-May-2006 at 19:42
Indeed, history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and misfortunes.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2006 at 12:52
To every thing must come an end but where somthing ends something news will come and so on and so on. these things I believe are happening in turns. Europe for the past 500 years (could be more) before that It was the mediterranean area, the silk route and know it's going to be east asia. And after that who know mabey Afrika?
 
This is my humble opinionBig smile


Edited by xi_tujue - 28-May-2006 at 12:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2006 at 16:38
Knowledge and technology - and capital - spread too fast for any geographical area to stay dominant for long in the future.
 
Globalisation is inevitable. The trick is to make it equitable.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 13:40
"How the hell can you prove that? Human beings are the same everywhere. Europeans have their Renaissance, democracy and enlightenment. Arabic technology in the middle ages was second to none, now they are far behind. The levels of sophisication changes over the centuries, it means absolutely nothing. So, stop making such rediculous claims."

My personal opinion.

Yes, people are all the same, and they also are not.

Yes, it was ridiculous to a large extent.

There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote steven Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 14:51

I think that at this juncture in history Western Society is entering the end of history itself, the posthistoric world where liberal democracy has turnt us into, for better or worse, men without chests.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Odin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 00:26
The West is aproaching it's Universal State phase, which means it has around 4 or 5 centuries left.
"Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now."

-Arnold J. Toynbee
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Odin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 00:27
Originally posted by steven steven wrote:

I think that at this juncture in history Western Society is entering the end of history itself, the posthistoric world where liberal democracy has turnt us into, for better or worse, men without chests.

 
 
Francis Fukuyama si full of sh*t!
"Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now."

-Arnold J. Toynbee
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 07:32
Originally posted by Odin Odin wrote:

The West is aproaching it's Universal State phase, which means it has around 4 or 5 centuries left.
 
You mean before the Fimbulwinter? Global chilling?
 
I guess Odin should know. And be worried.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dampier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2006 at 18:28
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

 
I guess Odin should know. And be worried.Smile
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2006 at 05:32
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

 
Globalisation is inevitable.
 
It may well be, but what would be the alternative.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 09:17
I think that civilizations (if the whole west can be termed as a that in the first place) approah a time whereby they must either reinvent themselves or die. I don't think what has been dubbed very losely as the "West" has reached that stage yet.
But the reletive lethargicness of the West in general especially compared to the East Asian Nations is nothing new, there comes a time when a new area of the world is full of energy and excited about the present and the future, while another having exprienced such a phase a few centuries ago becomes more and more used to a sedentry lifestyle (as illustrated by many of the ills listed above)
 In 1500 it was the "West" which was energetic and the Orient (as exemplified by the islamic and Sino worlds) was becoming lethargic. We know it as the Renessaice. Its possible that future historians will call this a Renessaice as well.
 
 
 
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Odin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 20:43
I'm talking about Arnold J. Toynbee's cyclocal theory of history. I read his whole great work, A Study of History, this spring.
"Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ildico Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 23:16
Throughout history there are times when one or more nations are so powerful that they are more in danger and eventually cause their own downfall. It doesn't seem like it's going to change anytime soon because the great saying goes: "History repeats itself."

In our times, it all just depends on who has the most powerful bombs and who those nations think is the most powerful to try to take over. Whether their plan backfires or not determines the fate of others, leading to wars which has repeated since the dawn of time.

I personally think that the first nation that someone will try to take over is the US, it's just a matter of time before yet another civilization falls. However nessessary it is for other nations to expand, I hope that no more wars come from wanting power.

Of course, it is only a hope because as long as humans walk, they will want power, and there will be war, desease, death and downfall.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote raygun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 00:34

The main worry is not about Asia or whoever that rise to dominence in world politics and economy, but the depletion of natural resources.

We may all be dead from famine & diseases before we even decide who's calling the shot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 18:22
Well today it is known for a fact that the population of humans is reaching saturation levels in this planet.  Free trade and the technological explosion of this last century have given us people in the West a pretty good life, materialistically speaking. We advertise our products and life in many different media outlets and the people of the East aspire to be like us because they think we are more "progressed" than them. The question is has modernization and globalization  made our life more meaninful by continually destroying the traditional views on life of each nation? I don't think so...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 01:29
Actually while some nations are at saturation levals, the planet as a whole is no where near it.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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