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Forum LockedThe corruption of the Church.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote io999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 10:19
Originally posted by Dawn Dawn wrote:


Perhaps it is better to stop judging the situation and try and figure out why it was happening.


Agree!
I guess the emergence of christianity and islam was the origin of dark ages.
So then religion was used as nationalism later. If we compare the church in the Middle ages with today's government, we can see why they were corrupted.


Edited by io999
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrodger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 20:57
Originally posted by Jalisco Lancer Jalisco Lancer wrote:

What was the first book ever printed ? The Bible.


Maybee not. Some considers Gutenberg to be wrongly credited, because
the Western printing stamps orginate from Italy.

Besides this, the Chineese printed the first book already for 2000 years
ago. :-)

Bring us Heathenry back, right now! :-)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 23:28

Hey Hrodger,

    I think supposedly China did make the first printing, but I don't think it's 2000 years ago.  That's way too long ago.  I think it was about the Sung Dynasty, but I'm not sure.  I think it was a copy of the Heart Sutta, a very famous Buddhist work among Chinese.

Peace,

Michael

12-14-2004



Edited by MengTzu
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mongke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2004 at 21:03

Originally posted by Jalisco Lancer Jalisco Lancer wrote:




The Catholic Church was not more corrupt than any other organization leaded by men.

The Anglican Church was created because refuse to give the divorce to the King Henry, right ?

Every other major christian church or branch commited not less prosecutions of jews, moors and others.
Didn't Russia had progroms ? Didn't the lutherans and calvinist prosecuted also witches and devil worshipers ?

However, the Catholic Church was the great educator of Europe and America.

What was the first book ever printed ? The Bible.

In America, the Catholic Church commited crimes agaisnt the local cultures by forbiden and demonizing the local believes and impossing the christianity to the natives. However, it was an institution that created the first hospitals, Orphanatories and the first formal Universities in the Americas ( Mexico and Peru ).

Plus, at least in Mexico, many priestes as Tata Vasco, Bartolome De Las Casas and some others, protected to the natives agaisnt the abuses of the Encomenderos. Not all of them were like Torquemada.

It's not clear cut as that. What happened is that some local customs have mixed with the christianity brought by europeans. Also a fair number of them volunterily converted because of the diseases that europeans brought with them ravaged the native populations while europeans were unaffected. Conclusion their god must be stronger than ours, hence conversion. Also if you look into the inquisition in the americas you will notice that the vast majority of people(primarily natives) were exempt from the inquisition because the understanding was that as new christians they were bound to make mistakes.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cornellia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2004 at 07:14

Jalisco makes an excellent point when he states that Catholic Church was no more corrupt than anything else led by mankind.

That's the point - we can demonize the Catholic Church today because its politically correct or expedient to do so - but the fact remains that if you look into any organization created by mankind with this kind of power, you will find the same level of corruption.

The common theme?

humans......unfortunately we do have our base natures and the old saying about power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely* is all too often proven to be true.

 

*Actually I prefer the newer version of that old saying - Power corrupts and absolute power is kinda neat.  LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2004 at 06:07

Sure the catholic church could act corruptly in the middle ages, but I guess they did more good than harm. The church conveyed the herritage from Rome and Greece and developed most parts of the European region - providing the "barbaric" warrior kings of Europe with a system of beaurocracy, writing, taxation and much more. The clergy were schollars, physicians, peace-negotiators, writers and artists. Catholic Christianity actually united western Europe in a sense - establishing a stabile base for mutual understanding between various ethnical groups

Sure the church rivaled kings and even emperors - but who have claimed that a king neccessarily is a better alternative than a bishop?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2004 at 16:33
bringing beauracracy and power to kings is necessarily a good thing either
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2004 at 04:39

Originally posted by Tobodai Tobodai wrote:

bringing beauracracy and power to kings is necessarily a good thing either

 

Nope you're right, but it's development at least. China and the muslim realm have always been admired and concidered as advanced regions due to their developed beauracracy and central goverment

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2004 at 09:10
I really don't see any benefit of the church (catholic or any other) in medieval times. Things only started to get better from the Renaissance on to the Industrial Revolution, when people started to get away from the srict ways of God. And one should not forget the bloodshed of such "remarkable" institutions like the Holy Inquisition! Fabulous!
An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2004 at 04:41

Originally posted by Infidel Infidel wrote:

I really don't see any benefit of the church (catholic or any other) in medieval times. Things only started to get better from the Renaissance on to the Industrial Revolution, when people started to get away from the srict ways of God. And one should not forget the bloodshed of such "remarkable" institutions like the Holy Inquisition! Fabulous!

 

That's pure popular myths, fostered by Jacob Burckhardt in the 19th century. The renaissance was a school of arts and humanities, but it had no impact whatsoever on the ordinary man. The church continiued to be powerful, there was no change except the protestant reformation - which was a processe of it's own and had nothing to do with the renaisannce. On the contrary, the reformation actually caused the catholic church to launch a Counter-Reformation - which strenghtened the church's authority. It was first in the Age of Enlightenment when alternative ideas to religion were spread 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2004 at 12:59

Perhaps the Renaissance is a popular myth, as you state, but I still believe that the Dark Ages were, indeed, dark in a great deal because of the Church and not in spite of it.



Edited by Infidel
An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2004 at 10:39

well it looks like a list of the contributions of the church and the middle ages is in order;

Hospitals, schools ,preservation of the ability to read and write, preservation of history, help in feeding the poor, space to stay for travellers, contributed to lightening the drudgery of every day life, care of the imortal soul( which the importance to medivel man can not be under estimated) freedom- with the help of the church and church dctorimne slaves went from being property to being free people- (don't start that serfs where not free,inconparison to a Roman slave they where free), Beginings of the concept of equality, ........

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2004 at 12:23
Amen!
An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Setanta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2004 at 14:39

Originally posted by Illuminati Illuminati wrote:

It is well known that the Catholic Church uin Medieval Europe was one of the most corrup organizations in history... (etc)

Sorry - that just made me laugh.  An Illuminati afficinado dissing the Church?

 

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Neart ár ngéag
Agus beart de réir ár mbriathar
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vercingetorix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2005 at 16:35

The church served as an early form of nationalism. It was in the name of christianity not of spain that the reconquista was fought. Also the church was instrumental in mobilising European support for the floundering Byzantine Empire. The church played an important role in protecting fragmented medieval europe

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Inquisitor Dei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 12:08
Well, many crimes were perpetrated in name of the Church or God. But one has to admit that the Ecclesia was extremely important in terms of preserving knowledge, giving education, social charity, providing a sense of unity to people in a time when Europe was at constant convulsion, states were born and undone, and war was the plate du jour. Though it was (and is) made of mere men, what has been keeping it alive during the centuries is the undeniable faith of the believers in the universal word of God.
"I am the way, the truth and the life.
No one comes to the Father but through me."

--John 14:6
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 20:34
Don't forget about Jim and Tammy Baker!!!

I think you will find corruption in any institution run by mankind, all religions!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YAFES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2005 at 20:10

the neverending story

~"pinochet and his wife are excellent christians"

guess whose statement it is

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2005 at 21:52

Two more things in addition to my first reponse in this thread (see last page.) 

First of all, true, the Church was corrupt.  But many tend to forget the other side of the story: the Church also did a lot of good things.  It's like every government, some flaws, some merits, and the Church, though not a state (it's against Church's law, btw, for a clergy to hold political post) but practically assumed a lot of functions of government.  The Church actually protected the Jews often against an anti-semitic populace.  The Inquisition (few people know this) was actually a way to make the trials of heretics more fair and less out of hand, because before the Inquisition, the civil states organized trials for heresy, and there were lots of a abuse.  It's been commented that the Inquisition was a milestone in legal history.

Secondly, the full context of Marx's statement is often missed.  His point isn't that religions were used by leaders to manipulate people.  His point is that human existence is so full of struggles that religions, like opiate, relieve that pain.  (Keep in mind that he's an atheist, so here he isn't saying religions are therefore real either.  He's saying that religions have psychological and social functions.)



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YAFES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2005 at 07:59
Originally posted by MengTzu MengTzu wrote:

 The Church actually protected the Jews often against an anti-semitic populace. 

 

So why did all the "SEFARAD(spanish) JEWS" were saved by the OTTOMAN dignity from the "Psycho Spanish Inquistion" ???

Wasn't Spain loyal to Vatican's "holy" orders?



Edited by YAFES
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