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Forum LockedThe bad side of Islam

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2007 at 22:27
Oh man, im being dragged right back in because people are saying I got my booty kicked. I do not see it that way at all.

What my arguement is all about is that I am taking an ethical dilemma and choosing a side that is correct in some forms and incorrect in others. Yes there will be loss of innocent lives when America takes action. To try to define what I am saying I will use an economic term called "Opportunity Cost." The definition for this is "The highest valued alternative that must be given up to engage in an activity." So after 9-11 which step would be the most appropriate action to take, what would be the consequences, and what other options would they be forsaking in choosing it? America decided to create homeland security that promises to protect her citizens, however it redueces government spending on other projects. And we know that the US decided to go to war in Afganistan and Iraq at the same time predicting the progress they will make, but at the other end they have to take into account the loss of lives as well. I do not consider myself to be on "the moral high ground" as you put it because I cannot fathom of myself putting together numbers of how many people will get killed.

But lets try to get into reality for a sec and look at the bigger picture here. Many of you see that the US has just gone at the crack of a whim to go fight in the middle east b/c its either about oil or creating an empire or both. My arguement is trying to dispell that idea/fantasy at least for some of you who only see America as a tyrannical country who is controlled by "evil" neo-conservatives and big brother corporations. This war, all of these events is about keeping our people safe and saying that absolutely no one can take American lives because they hate us to the core and want to forcibly convert us to their beliefs.

Also concerning Ahmendinijad, he still has the khomeni support, and if he was doing anything that was displeasing to that black robed fella im sure Ahmendinijad would be rotting in a dark place right now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2007 at 22:54
Ah Ponce, applying what you are learning in Business/Commerce school to global geo-politics eh?
 
Well I can speak that language too. One of my all round favourite Commerce discipline techniques is "Cost-Benefit Analysis", which involves examining each course of action you can take, weighing up the potential costs against the potential gains, and then deciding on the basis of that which is best.
 
What is most surprising about the past 7 years is how the USA, traditionally one of the world's most financially intelligent nations, has been derailed from pursuing its best interests by lobby groups, hidden agendas and a climate of paranoid fear inspired by a sensationalist and fear mongering media.
 
Let's take the example of Iraq. The country was no threat, did not have WMDs, no link has been made to terrorism. Potential benefits of invading Iraq: creating a model democracy in the Middle East (but only if occupation is done well enough to succeed), relieving the oil shortage, getting rid of a nasty dictator (though there are a hundred others to choose from in the world), setting up a friendly state able to threaten Iran (but only if occupation is done well enough to succeed), showing the world America is not to be toyed with (but only if occupation is done well enough to succeed), stimulating the American economy (though only sustainable if oil profits help offset military spending). These are potential benefits I speak of. In actual fact, very few of these have been achieved. A nasty dictator was toppled, some oil came through (though a lot is being lost thanks to the insurgency), and that's about it.
 
Now lets do the "Cost" side of the equation. More Americans dead than were killed in the 9/11 attacks, over half a million Iraqis dead, a perfect training ground for terrorist warriors is created, Iraq is divided and open to encroachment from its neighbours, American forces are proving ineffective against unconventional warfare, international loss of reputation for the USA, massively unsustainable spending in the USA for the war which will total trillions (not even considering the loss of lives and economic development which is a result of diverting government revenue from projects at home), and inability of the USA to bring its clout to bear on more threatening opponents such as Iran and North Korea.
 
Ok, so let's do our cost-benefit analysis. Cost:
 
More Americans dead than were killed in the 9/11 attacks, over half a million Iraqis dead, a perfect training ground for terrorist warriors is created, Iraq is divided and open to encroachment from its neighbours (including Iran and the Saudis), American forces are proving ineffective against unconventional warfare (and others in the world notice this), international loss of reputation for the USA, massively unsustainable spending in the USA for the war which will total trillions (not even considering the loss of lives and economic development which is a result of diverting government revenue from projects at home), and inability of the USA to bring its clout to bear on more threatening opponents such as Iran and North Korea.
 
Benefits:
 
A nasty dictator was toppled, some oil came through (though a lot is being lost thanks to the insurgency), and that's about it.
 
While the USA did have to respond to 9/11 to show the world it was a strong and united country not to be messed with, the Iraq adventure was counter-productive to that aim.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2007 at 00:17
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon Ponce de Leon wrote:

My arguement is trying to dispell that idea/fantasy at least for some of you who only see America as a tyrannical country who is controlled by "evil" neo-conservatives and big brother corporations.


     But at the same time you're perpetuating falsehoods about other countries, and accusing people of genocide with no proof, to try to coerce people into advocating a war. You still haven't said what benefits there are for people like you and me to advocate a strike on Iran.



Originally posted by Ponce de Leon Ponce de Leon wrote:

Yes there will be loss of innocent lives when America takes action. To try to define what I am saying I will use an economic term called "Opportunity Cost." The definition for this is "The highest valued alternative that must be given up to engage in an activity." So after 9-11 which step would be the most appropriate action to take, what would be the consequences, and what other options would they be forsaking in choosing it?


     Starting support of democracies and ending support of dictatorships and tyrannies. That would mean toning down favoritism towards Israel and creating a balanced approach to the problems in the Middle East (which, if solved correctly, would significantly boost America's image in the Arab and Muslim world). That would also mean cutting major support to regimes in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Libya, Turkey, Iranian separatists, etc. You might be searching for the best alternative, but don't expect someone living under Ghadaffi's shadow to believe us when we say we're doing the best thing we can by invading this country or supporting tyrants who wouldn't exist if it wasn't for our unconditional support. Ending our favoritism towards some of the world's worst despots would be in our national interests, but probably not in the interests of the elites and their checkbooks, which is probably why we are taking the current course of events.



Originally posted by Ponce de Leon Ponce de Leon wrote:

Also concerning Ahmendinijad, he still has the khomeni support, and if he was doing anything that was displeasing to that black robed fella im sure Ahmendinijad would be rotting in a dark place right now.


     In the end the Ayatollah does what he thinks is best for the country and the Islamic regime. I highly doubt nuking a country that has hundreds of nuclear missiles with the best delivery systems and making the entire world turn against it would be in the interests of either country or regime.

     Ahmadinejad is a crackpot, but that doesn't mean he's the next Hitler. The difference is I don't like either Bush or Ahmadinejad because I think they are both schemers. But you denounce Ahmadinejad, and support the policies of Bush. Bush is worse in my opinion. Ahmadinejad doesn't start armed conflicts every couple of years, and his decisions haven't killed a million people. But despite that, your whole basis for advocating an attack on Iran is that you think they are going to kill a million people, even though there is no evidence to indicate that. Do you realize how ridiculous that is?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2007 at 02:47
Quote A.S
That would also mean cutting major support to regimes in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Libya, Turkey, Iranian separatists, etc.
 
Last time I checked "Turkey" had a democratic election and the ruling party voted in.
 
What are you faffing about Turkey for again.
 
Your posts in this thread have been what "everybody wants to hear", however, there is a big difference between the real world and the rose-tinted world.
 
The real world is ugly, in the real world the weak get eaten alive, in the real world countries act in their own interest and are ready to exploit, kill, destroy others if they are able to.
This is how man-kind behaves and always has done to each other, we just don't like "accepting" how awfull we can be to each other. It doesn't matter whether its a bloody tribal war in Africa, civil strife in Ireland or the invasion of Iraq, one common aspect of human behaviour historically and today is "agression".
 
U.S does what is needs to stay a super-power and does what it wants as a super-power simply because she "can". It doesn't matter if you, I or half the countries in the world love America or hate her, they'll do as they wish as long as they have the power too.
 
Let's be honest, conflict in the world suits America, the huge weapons dealers make untold fortunes in this market, every conflict is a potential gold-mine.
Also, as the bulk of the population is exposed to the mainstream commercial media its very easy to manipulate people and spread "fear" which will de-sensitise them from the attrocities of war.
 
The reason guys like Ponce and others can agree with 600,000 Iraqi civillian deaths is because they've swallowed the stories of, "Saddam being a threat to America", Saddam having weapons of mass destruction, Saddam and his Iraqi's are ready to attack and kill millions of American civillians at any time, the terrorists that attacked America are all in Iraq, Saddam is in cahoots with the terrorists, Saddam is in cahoots with Iran, Iran is on the axis of evil bla bla bla is because of what the media feeds them and their acceptance of these stories as if they're the gospel truth.
They need to believe these stories, when they stop believing this nonsense the peoples will rally against their rulers like they did during Vietnam.
 
 
 


Edited by Bulldog - 15-Sep-2007 at 02:55
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Mortaza View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2007 at 04:09
Those countries are secular and hardly Christian and so is the USA so please do not generalize, no longer Christian.
 
Realy? So you want to tell me, Bush is a secular guy, who dont care about religion? Putin? Sarco? Merkel? Yes. All of them absolute dont care about christianity. We can just see it from their every words.
 
I see we have a lot of America haters here.
 
I just disapprove what USA do. I dont think we can call it as american hater. Specially, when I am using your "most" word. You are the last one who can accuse me.
 
 I cannot agree with everything we do and the elite globalist who are in control are no less evil than the radical Muslims but still Islam has to face its violence.
 
Well. You should face your own violence firstly. You are the one who have gun and your country killed much more innocent at last year than all islamic terrorist killed at last 100 years.
 
If you stop to support terrorist(Saddam, Bin Laden), You will just met less terrorists.
 
The Ottoman Turks are not without their own sin but that is for another thread.
 
Like christian europeans. I am not the one accuse other religions with violence. It is you.
 
Chinese weapons also don't forget!!!
 
Well until now, We just find american, russian, italian and french weapons at PKK.
 
No chinese weapon.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2007 at 09:15
Quote Bulldog:
 
"The reason guys like Ponce and others can agree with 600,000 Iraqi civillian deaths is because they've swallowed the stories of, "Saddam being a threat to America", Saddam having weapons of mass destruction, ..."
 
I think it is more the case of 'no skin off my back', as long as i can feed my 4 litre gas guzzler with cheap gas. The others are usually Zio-cons. We hear about "blood diamonds", but no one ever speaks of "blood oil". It never fails to amaze me, how some Americans fail to see "blow-ups" and "blow-backs" as part of the same equation of 'cyclical' violence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2007 at 11:03
I think people like Ponce take Stupid Pills when they wake up. There is no sense in people like this. Their logic is incomprehensible. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2007 at 12:25
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

 
The reason guys like Ponce and others can agree with 600,000 Iraqi civillian deaths....
 
 


yesterday i heard on Dutch news that civilian deaths where more then 1.2 million people according to a british institution.

sorry the source is only available in Dutch language:
http://www.standaard.be/Artikel/Detail.aspx?artikelid=DMF14092007_101
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2007 at 18:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 14:10
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

Last time I checked "Turkey" had a democratic election and the ruling party voted in.
 
What are you faffing about Turkey for again.
 
Your posts in this thread have been what "everybody wants to hear", however, there is a big difference between the real world and the rose-tinted world.
 
 
     I'm not "faffing about Turkey again". Don't get your knickers in a twist just because I mentioned Turkey. I said the U.S. should create a more balanced policy in the middle east, and that includes ending favoritism towards certain regimes which I named.
 
     And what does it matter if Turkey has elections? If having elections was the only criteria for a democracy to exist then Israel and Iran would be shining examples.
 
 
 
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

Let's be honest, conflict in the world suits America
 
 
     Lets be accurate, conflict in the world suits American elites. National interests have nothing to do with having the world despise you and making a tiny class of people richer than they already are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2007 at 13:44
Seko I don't see it that way and I do not hate Muslims at all but only people who hurt others in the name of their god. As it is, if you look at mainstream news, most of this is done by the 10-15 % who represent the religion of peace. I have never heard Michael Savage say to hate all Muslims. I do not work for him but I wish I did since I go along with 85% of what he says but sometimes he is too harsh with his comments, I will agree with that. I have Muslim friends overseas and they agree that the few are hurting Islam.
Now hearing a Muslim call America or Europe Christain nations is totally in error and you know that. We have few Muslims here but when I meet them I treat them with respect but if they support the extremist I lose my respect.
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2007 at 14:02
dont you support USA extremism? like attacking a county(Iraq) because hmm because?
 
because?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2007 at 15:27
saddam wasnt bad enough for his own country
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2007 at 18:41
Originally posted by Mortaza Mortaza wrote:

dont you support USA extremism? like attacking a county(Iraq) because hmm because?

because?


I did not support Bush on this and I take Pat Buchanan's stance, a true conservative. But, we are there so we either fight to win or get out and no more PC war. Most of the deaths are between Shiite and suni Muslims and when we leave I am afraid there will be a blood bath. Should I care- yes I do!! Neither side has gotten along for centuries and it is a shame they are killing each other for religion. I am sure Bush thought he was protecting the interest of America, really his globalist community of rich elite. I am starting to realize the biggest threat to America are the globalist. Frankly, I wish everyone in the world could learn to get along peacefully but that is not reality.

Without being PC I realize that all most Muslims want in life is the same as everyone else but I ask these questions in sincerity!!

How come anytime someone criticizes radical Islam they are a Muslim hater and guilty of hate speech?

Why are most moderate or peaceful Muslims quiet about what the few, 10%-15%, do?



I will observe the answers but I will not answer back since I really want to rehatch Manizkert 1071 AD after I read the past posts on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2007 at 20:44
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

Seko I don't see it that way and I do not hate Muslims at all but only people who hurt others in the name of their god. As it is, if you look at mainstream news, most of this is done by the 10-15 % who represent the religion of peace. I have never heard Michael Savage say to hate all Muslims. I do not work for him but I wish I did since I go along with 85% of what he says but sometimes he is too harsh with his comments, I will agree with that. I have Muslim friends overseas and they agree that the few are hurting Islam.
Now hearing a Muslim call America or Europe Christain nations is totally in error and you know that. We have few Muslims here but when I meet them I treat them with respect but if they support the extremist I lose my respect.


The problem with Savage is not that he accuses the few extremists, which would be right, but wrongly injects his hate into Islamic dogma, which is wrong. He uses cunning tricks in order to further his enterprise, his books are full of wrong analogies about Islamic dogma, which really does not support extremist notions. If he were criticizing the extremists he would not be critiqued heavily himself, however considering that he picks, and chooses many lines, and injects his own take on things in order to further his means he is not taken seriously.

Calling America a Christian nation is an erroneous statement, however, you also have to agree that there are many political factors, and civilian that do in fact think of this country as a Christian nation, a good example the attack*verbal* in the US Senate instigated  against the Hindu chaplain invited for prayer.
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20718&KW=christian+extremists+exremism

PS. Most Muslims are not quiet, they criticize, and educate on the real Islam quite extensively, however, such actions are not covered by your major news outlets in the U.S. Especially any one of the local level movements.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2007 at 03:19
Most of the deaths are between Shiite and suni Muslims and when we leave I am afraid there will be a blood bath.
 
If you did not go, We would not meet so much death.
 
It is funny, Go a country, destroy structure of that country and say, If we leave everything would be worse.
 
Anyway, You understand me wrong, I am accusing USA people because They vote for bush second. After his personel wars. So why people are so silent about this majority?
 
or do you think, Only bush is responsible?
 
How come anytime someone criticizes radical Islam they are a Muslim hater and guilty of hate speech?
 
You are not critizing terrorists but islam. (Like saying,Not all terrorist are Muslim but most terrorist are Muslim sad to say.) Anyway, For your info biggest terrorist is your country.
 
Your country did much worse than every terrorists. Accuse your country first. Oh wait, Of course, Your country did it with support of majority of your people. So accuse your people.
 
 Not all Americans are terrorist but majority of americans support terorism of USA and Bush.
 
Why are most moderate or peaceful Muslims quiet about what the few, 10%-15%, do?

Hmm? If I would stand against every terrorist people, I should firstly stand against USA(Biggest terrorist, No terrorist killes so much people without reason). As you see, You cannot see a lot protest from me.

Why should I support USA terrorism against bin laden terrorism? Both are killing people without good reason.
 
Sorry my friend, You terrorism will not get any support even from muslim who becomed atheist.

Forget that peaciful moderate bla bla muslim.. If you did not come with peace, You would not find peace.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard XIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2007 at 05:22
So in your opinion a good American is a death American?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2007 at 06:08
Quote Why are most moderate or peaceful Muslims quiet about what the few, 10%-15%, do?
 
How do you know?  I have hjeard Muslims speak out plenty against the Munafiqeen (bad Muslims).  But anyway, why should they be expected to say anything?  The extremists by definition follow extreme ideologies.
 
Quote It is funny, Go a country, destroy structure of that country and say, If we leave everything would be worse.
 
Funny indeed.
 
I think that if the coalition left, the Iraqis would get things sorted out pretty quickly actually.  They would easily get rid of the Al-Qaeda scum sent there by Saudi Arabia with Israel's covert help and America's tacit support to cause chaos and thus justify a perpetual occupation and the destruction of Iraq.
 
Iraqis would clean their country of such [foreign] idiots in an instant.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2007 at 06:17
So in your opinion a good American is a death American?
 
I am not american hater. I have american friends. (Well ok, This is always what haters repeat.) .
 
I believe not all americans are terrorism supporter, just majority. (do this words remind you something?)
 
Like this. "Not all terrorist are Muslim but most terrorist are Muslim sad to say."
 
By the way, arent you agree that what Bush doing at iraq is terrorism.(Creating terror and killing people without a good reason. Destroying a country.)
 
And majority of americans support Bush?
 
Before accusing others, one should be more careful.
 
I am not even talking about American support to PJAK.A terrorist organization at iran.
 


Edited by Mortaza - 18-Sep-2007 at 06:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard XIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2007 at 06:59
So majority of good Americans are dead Americans! And who is the judge?
Because there is no objective judge, is simply impossible to have one, any American is guilty and a good target to kill.


Edited by Richard XIII - 18-Sep-2007 at 07:35
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