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Forum LockedThe bad side of Islam

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 11:57
You guys think that America is an evil nation by supporting tyrants and the like. Well how do you think we get into the underworld of crime and intrigue? You think that America can just guess what the enemy is thinking and then we can take action?

We have to get into the pockets of some bad people in order to stop others who are interfering with American interests. You have to choose the lesser evil. I am not saying it was right, and neither did Bill Clinton who BTW tried to stop that program and made our secret service almost blind to the going-on's of terrorism which led to 9-11 in the first place! And of course I read all your arguements but I feel that they are weak and that is making me more entrenched in my beliefs.

Elections in Iran? Doesn't the word "rigged" mean anything?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 16:23
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon Ponce de Leon wrote:

You guys think that America is an evil nation by supporting tyrants and the like. Well how do you think we get into the underworld of crime and intrigue? You think that America can just guess what the enemy is thinking and then we can take action?


     So why can't Iran use the same petty excuse? You're trying to take the moral high ground by saying Iran wants to commit a holocaust (which is baseless as you've provided no evidence), but at the same time your excuses for America's global hegemony only makes the U.S. and Iran look like 2 cheeks of the same ass, except that its a lop-sided ass as the U.S. is not even comparable to Iran in terms of power and influence.


     Also, if the whole U.S. foreign policy rests on fighting terrorism and dictatorships, and they sponsor terrorism and dictatorships in other countries (which greatly outnumber those that they are fighting), it would seem to any reasonable person that the U.S. are liars who want to trick the world into fighting people not based on their actions, but solely because they interfere with our interests. No different from an oligarch or dictator. It doesn't take a vivid imagination to realize that many innocent people are easily targeted due to this type of deceit.



Originally posted by Ponce de Leon Ponce de Leon wrote:

Elections in Iran? Doesn't the word "rigged" mean anything?


     Ditto for elections here, too, unless you've been sleeping under a rock since 2000.



Originally posted by Ponce de Leon Ponce de Leon wrote:

We have to get into the pockets of some bad people in order to stop others who are interfering with American interests. You have to choose the lesser evil.


    
     Ah, theres a huge misconception in this section. You say we have to get in good with baddies in order to look out for our own interests, and then you say we are choosing the lesser evil. There is no correlation to our interests and choosing the lesser of two evils. In fact, if you know American history, you will see that we usually choose the greater evils (Saddam, Bin Laden, the worst dictators in Latin American history since the colonial era, and almost all the corrupt dictatorships of the middle east, not to mention countless invasions). The only alternative to all those monsters, was to simply jeopardize small portions of our interests. But, according to you, living a little better and making the elites even more rich is worth the death and suffering of millions around the world.


Originally posted by Ponce de Leon Ponce de Leon wrote:

And of course I read all your arguements but I feel that they are weak and that is making me more entrenched in my beliefs.



     Your post was originally based on the propaganda of the media in Muslim countries, and I have already shown how our western media is exactly the same. You accused Iran of wanting to kill an entire nation (a very serious accusation), but you provided no proof and only a false translation to back it up. You had no rebuttal to the fact that it was a false translation, and have failed to provide any more "proof" of your staunch belief. You ignored all that, then tried making excuses for the actions of the U.S., when any other nation can claim the same thing, and as I've already said, we have sponsored the most and worst dictatorships in the world, which is nothing short of immense hypocrisy coming from a nation which preaches nothing but freedom and democracy as a pretext for all its actions. Please point out whats "weak" about whatever I've posted here. Defeating a weak argument shouldn't be that hard Ponce. Let me have it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 18:21
Pone de Leon, isn't it ironic that the country which has done the most to help Iran is actually the U.S of A?
 
I mean let's look at it for minute...
 
Who was Iran's biggest foe? who would Iran most like to give a good kicking?
 
Yeea you guessed it, Iraq and their tyranical leader "Saddam Hussein".
 
Unlike a number of countries in the West, to Iran Saddam was always a dictatorial maniac.
 
Infact the only country not to support Saddam out of the two was actually Iran...
 
Iran was fighting a war against Saddam in the days when Saddam was a "pal" of America.
 
Now, when the U.S toppled Saddam, they did what Iran would have loved to do, even better Iran got their wishes without firing a single bullet.
 
 
What about Afganistan?
 
Contrary to the popular belief of some circles, Ladin and his cronies arn't in Cahoots with Iran, infact Iran and the Shiites are viewed with such contempt by these loonies that they'd have a tough choice choosing who to get rid of first, Iran or Israel...
 
This nuisance to Iran was also toppled, the anti-Iranian taliban forces lost their power base.
 
 
All in all, its starting to look like an Iranian triumph, without firing a bullet their two biggest enemies who also happened to be their neighbours have been toppled. Now the energy saved not fighting can be used spreading Iranian influence into their border regions.
 
On street level Iran has achieved an almost heroic reputation, the folk have developed a respect for Iran, they see them as the only country in the region with a backbone, standing on her two feet calling the odds.
 
The biggest winner out of all this mess could be Iran.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 18:39
You do not think that situations can change over a course of time? And it was not between Iran and Saddam, it was Saddam and Khomeni. I consider the government of Iran to be just as tyrannical as Saddam's. Bulldog you could be correct that Iran could be a winner because as I am sure you know it wants to establish itself as the biggest player in the region. Therefore if the US pulls its troops out of Iraq too soon Iran will jump in.

Armenian, we have two different perspectives on the moralities of the situation concerning America's actions on dictatorships and the like. I am not going to say that you are wrong, but the U.S cannot look out for the entire world's interest. the gov't is still acting in our interests which is why we are still number 1 in the world with our military and economically.

And thats my final word with that

Edited by Ponce de Leon - 13-Sep-2007 at 18:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 18:51
The Bush regime is looking out for US interests? That has to be the joke of the day.
 
The war was indeed between Saddam and Iran - his goal was to annex Iranian territory.  19,000 Iraqi soldiers were captured during the liberation of Khorramshahr - 2000 were executed for commiting rape.  Saddam persistantly used racial slurs against Iranians.  Members of my family fought against Saddam and at the same time cursed Khomeini.


Edited by Zagros - 13-Sep-2007 at 18:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 20:19
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon Ponce de Leon wrote:

Armenian, we have two different perspectives on the moralities of the situation concerning America's actions on dictatorships and the like.


     Yes, it seems you believe the luxury of a handful of elites is worth more than scores of civilians... unless you're naive enough to believe that theres a benefit for you and me to gain out of attacking Iran. If so, please explain the potential benefits, because no one here seems to understand except for you.


Originally posted by Ponce de Leon Ponce de Leon wrote:

I am not going to say that you are wrong, but the U.S cannot look out for the entire world's interest. the gov't is still acting in our interests which is why we are still number 1 in the world with our military and economically.


     And how exactly is Iran in a position to threaten this? They don't have the "number 1" military or economy, not even close. They are not the ones with the ability to send hundreds of thousands of troops to occupy countries half a world away, destroying millions of lives because of their "interests" (which you haven't specified, btw).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 21:22
you dont know that Iran is continuing to enrich its uranium that will develop nuclear weapons, and which Ahmendinijad even commented that it will soon be a reality. That should be enough of a threat to take care of seriously before it gets outta control. Just look it up in a newspaper, CNN, MSNBC whatever. It doesnt matter cause we cannot convince each other anyway.


So I say Good Day Sir!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 23:19
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon Ponce de Leon wrote:

you dont know that Iran is continuing to enrich its uranium that will develop nuclear weapons, and which Ahmendinijad even commented that it will soon be a reality. That should be enough of a threat to take care of seriously before it gets outta control.



     Again, Ahmadinejad does not have the authority to carry out strikes on another country. The armed forces are controlled by the Ayatollah, and he also has the final say in internal and foreign affairs, which is why he is called the Supreme Leader. So if anyone is going to do what you're saying, its going to be the Ayatollah. Stop using Ahmadinejad as an excuse. He doesn't even get on that well with the Supreme Leader.

     Now that you have learned the most basic hierarchy of the Iranian state, can you please provide a single shred of evidence that the Ayatollah is going to nuke anyone with his imaginary bomb?

     Oh wait, our fair and balanced media doesn't cover any of the Ayatollah's speeches, nor do they report on him, even though he is the leader of the country that is at the center of all this controversy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 23:26
Hey I am just as paranoid as the next guy on the media but...

I said good day!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2007 at 00:40
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon Ponce de Leon wrote:

You guys think that America is an evil nation by supporting tyrants and the like. Well how do you think we get into the underworld of crime and intrigue? You think that America can just guess what the enemy is thinking and then we can take action?

We have to get into the pockets of some bad people in order to stop others who are interfering with American interests. You have to choose the lesser evil. I am not saying it was right, and neither did Bill Clinton who BTW tried to stop that program and made our secret service almost blind to the going-on's of terrorism which led to 9-11 in the first place! And of course I read all your arguements but I feel that they are weak and that is making me more entrenched in my beliefs.

Elections in Iran? Doesn't the word "rigged" mean anything?


And in the process f**k up how many people's lives? Where is the accountability?

Tell you what, you cozied with Al Qaeda and Taliban to fight the Soviets, now shut the hell up and swallow the bitter f**king pill.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2007 at 00:45
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon Ponce de Leon wrote:

You do not think that situations can change over a course of time? And it was not between Iran and Saddam, it was Saddam and Khomeni. I consider the government of Iran to be just as tyrannical as Saddam's. Bulldog you could be correct that Iran could be a winner because as I am sure you know it wants to establish itself as the biggest player in the region. Therefore if the US pulls its troops out of Iraq too soon Iran will jump in.

Armenian, we have two different perspectives on the moralities of the situation concerning America's actions on dictatorships and the like. I am not going to say that you are wrong, but the U.S cannot look out for the entire world's interest. the gov't is still acting in our interests which is why we are still number 1 in the world with our military and economically.

And thats my final word with that


I like how all this horse sh*t fell out of your mouth, and you had the idiocy to name this thread "The Bad Side of Islam".

Fantastic. Now pull out a world map and point to Oregon State.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2007 at 01:06
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon Ponce de Leon wrote:

Hey I am just as paranoid as the next guy on the media but...

I said good day!



      I'd laugh if this wasn't such a sad spectacle. You are advocating the destruction of innocents based on (according to you) paranoia, as well as not a shred of evidence. What separates the causes and consequences of what you are advocating compared to the Muslim extremists that you hate? You both fool yourselves through paranoia and vague implications to advocate the destruction of innocent peoples, and you both believe that your actions are noble and necessary.

     Unless an 8-foot metrosexual reincarnation of Darius lands on the east coast with his army of ninjas in the name of Allah, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

     I know its hard, but try to use FACTS to come to your conclusions, and not paranoia or emotion. This is a history forum, not a fictional literature workshop. If this point of view of yours cannot even survive some basic criticism, maybe you should think about changing your point of view, afterall thats what any reasonable person would do once they have been presented with facts. If not, then you have a lot more to worry about than anything Iran will ever do. Or an 8-foot metrosexual reincarnation of Darius, for that matter.

     The only advice I can give you is to not close your eyes to the crimes committed by people like you and me, because then we will have a manipulated and fabricated national memory, and that will only lead us into more trouble as we will be engulfed with romantic lies about how evil is good when we commit it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2007 at 02:07
Incidentally, Ponce, your paste lack the references we usually ask for.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2007 at 02:51
you dont know that Iran is continuing to enrich its uranium that will develop nuclear weapons, and which Ahmendinijad even commented that it will soon be a reality.
 
Following step on another country? How bad. Until now, No state used A-Bomb but US.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2007 at 03:20

while that Beck's episode called "The Extremist Agenda " which is making it sounds like an (only Islamic middle eastern thing). which is not true.

yet the title is somehow much better than  "the bad side of Islam' which is even worse than that episode's objectives (propaganda)
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2007 at 04:22
Nomination for post (posts) of the month - ArmenianSurvival.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2007 at 05:10
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Nomination for post (posts) of the month - ArmenianSurvival.


There is a thread in Tavern where you can make that nomination.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2007 at 13:13
Originally posted by Mughaal Mughaal wrote:

Originally posted by Ponce de Leon Ponce de Leon wrote:

You guys think that America is an evil nation by supporting tyrants and the like. Well how do you think we get into the underworld of crime and intrigue? You think that America can just guess what the enemy is thinking and then we can take action?

We have to get into the pockets of some bad people in order to stop others who are interfering with American interests. You have to choose the lesser evil. I am not saying it was right, and neither did Bill Clinton who BTW tried to stop that program and made our secret service almost blind to the going-on's of terrorism which led to 9-11 in the first place! And of course I read all your arguements but I feel that they are weak and that is making me more entrenched in my beliefs.

Elections in Iran? Doesn't the word "rigged" mean anything?


And in the process f**k up how many people's lives? Where is the accountability?

Tell you what, you cozied with Al Qaeda and Taliban to fight the Soviets, now shut the hell up and swallow the bitter f**king pill.
 
You know what Mughaal, that is one ugly response. Pretty much everybody but you knows how to keep their cool and debate the material here.  This is not the first time your profanities have caught my attention. Official warning.
 
*A.S. you are one heck of a debater. Granted it was a one way street once Ponce had nothing more to say. He'll have a hard time picking himself up from his bootstraps after that lashing you gave him. The funny thing is that there are millions of Americans that do not know better. They watch the pundits, gossip shows and get doused with propaganda from the likes of CNN, FoX, or comedy channels and before you know it they are mouthpieces for the administration.  


Edited by Seko - 14-Sep-2007 at 15:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2007 at 20:23
Originally posted by Mortaza Mortaza wrote:

Not all terrorist are Muslim but most terrorist are Muslim sad to say. Most conflicts in the world are between Muslims and their neighbors so don't point at only israel- India, Indonesia, thailand, Albania, and the list can go on and on.

And USA(with the help of mostly christian countries)attacking and occupying most countries.


USA is helping a mostly terrorist(PJAK) organization at iran.(So maybe you should think who is hitler.)


Pkk terrorists in Turkey mostly carry american and europeanweapons.



By the way, this most thing is mostly nothing more than a bad propoganda.


Those countries are secular and hardly Christian and so is the USA so please do not generalize, no longer Christian. I see we have a lot of America haters here. I cannot agree with everything we do and the elite globalist who are in control are no less evil than the radical Muslims but still Islam has to face its violence. I am not going to get into a sensless debate over Israel. The Ottoman Turks are not without their own sin but that is for another thread.
check out - know your enemy by Michael Savage
I want to work on my thread about questions for Muslims so I do not have enough time for this but I will try and get back. Chinese weapons also don't forget!!! Frankly, the sale of any US or European weapons to terrorist is morally wrong but what can I do about it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2007 at 20:38
Eagle those are heavy words you're using. 'America haters'? This thread was opened by an American. You didn't even come close to calling it 'Islam haters' yet that would be closer to the truth. Btw are you a paid employee of Michael Savage? Seems that you are spouting his hate all over AE. Let me remind you that any form of poltical propaganda is a violation. Being that we are long time forum pals I figure it best you know that.
 
About your thread for muslims, here is another hint. Instead of showing links for your arguement how about asking precise questions. This way people will know what to answer. We would rather read your comments than those from your links.


Edited by Seko - 14-Sep-2007 at 20:43
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