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Forum LockedThe 2 Manchu invasion on Joseon Korea

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    Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 10:45
The first Manchu invasion on Korea was in 1627 and the second was in 1636 ,do anyone have information on this Manchu invasion on Korea and why ming dynastly was not invoved like the injim war in 1592-1597 and what will happen if Ming was helping Korea ,will they beat the Manchu ,thank you .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 14:38
Originally posted by rodimus prime rodimus prime wrote:

The first Manchu invasion on Korea was in 1627 and the second was in 1636 ,do anyone have information on this Manchu invasion on Korea and why ming dynastly was not invoved like the injim war in 1592-1597 and what will happen if Ming was helping Korea ,will they beat the Manchu ,thank you .
 
If Ming helped Korea, it might not have helped because the Ming was having problems with the Manchu's at the same time & suffering from failed domestic policies.  After the Imjin War, Ming was severely weakened.
 
If the Ming was stronger, she probably would have been able to help the Koreans like during Imjin War.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 16:00
Joseon Korea seemed to have a pretty deep feeling for Ming, Qing did encountered great resistance during the invasion, possibly because of Ming's effort in the war agaist Japan, but at the time of the invasion, Ming already lost its control in the Northeastern

Edited by Siege Tower - 10-Nov-2006 at 16:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 18:17
IMHO, it was strategic mishap by the Ming not to help Korea.  Despite the Imjin War, the Ming had more than the capability to aid Korea.  Here is why:

1. Twenty years after the Imjin War, 100,000 Ming troops were sent to the northeast to put down the insurgent Nurhaci.  Although the Ming were completely routed in the Battle of Sarahu, it speaks for the ability of the Ming to field a considerable army at the time.

2. During the Battle of Songshan, which took place after the first Manchu invasion of Korea, the Ming troops numbered 130,000, outnumbering the entire Manchu force at the time. 

Conclusion: The Ming had the strength to aid Korea if its policy allowed it to.

After the Ming victory at Ningyuan - which led ot Nurachi's death - Ming Viceroy of the Liaodong Yuan Chonghuan adopted a defensive strategy, signing a peace pact with the Manchus so that he could build up the defenses around the Ningyuan-Shongshan front.  The strategy was sound, because Yuan judged correctly that the best way to defeat the Manchus was through defense and attrition.

Yet, the temporary armistice gave the Manchus time to eliminate two thorns along its way to defeating the Ming Empire by 1. subjugating the Southern Mongols  2. making Choson Korea a vassal

While the Manchu subjugation of the Southern Mongols was to a certain extent inevitable, the Manchu subjugation of Korea was not.  At the Yalu River junction, the Ming relied on warlord Mao Wenlong, who provided support against the Manchus as well as a link with Choson Korea.  Yuan Chonghuan's execution of Mao Wenlong consolidated Ming leadership in the northeast region, but also undermined support, especially from Mao's former subjects. 

Geographically and strategically, Choson Korea had more to gain by allying with the Ming.  IMHO, Ming emperor Chongzhen should have taken the following steps:

1. Invading the Yellow River Region around Southern Inner Mongolia, a region that bred horses in great quantities, so that it could organize cavalry more cheaply.  One of the disadvantages of the Ming against the Manchus was its inability of win open field battles as a result of inferior cavalry troops.

2. Sending aid troops to Korea, even if it had to be via Mao Wenlong.  Sending aid troops direct from Shandong is another option.  The link between the Ningyuan-Shongshan front, Mao Wenlong's Liaodong-Yalu base, and Choson should never be cut off.

3. Yuan Chonghuan's plan would have been more effective with steps 1 and 2 taken in conjunction with building up defenses along the Ningyuan-Shongshan front. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I/eye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 01:47
Choson initially wanted to take a neutral position.
 
but that king was replaced by another, a pro-Ming king
 
so Choson chose to stick by Ming, and then were invaded by ManchusDead
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 11:56
Poirot,
Excellent analysis!  Got some question.
 
1. Did Yuan execute Mao because of jealously or because of some more nobler cause?
 
2. What was the training and realiability of the Ming Armies after the Imjin War.  I was under the impression after Imjin, the Ming Armies were pretty much unreliable.
 
3.  Could Korea have taken a neutral stance (per I/eye's statement)?  I can see the Ming allowing it because they could not do anything about it anyway, but would the Manchu's let them do that?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Preobrazhenskoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 12:10
Originally posted by poirot poirot wrote:

IMHO, it was strategic mishap by the Ming not to help Korea.  Despite the Imjin War, the Ming had more than the capability to aid Korea.  Here is why:

1. Twenty years after the Imjin War, 100,000 Ming troops were sent to the northeast to put down the insurgent Nurhaci.  Although the Ming were completely routed in the Battle of Sarahu, it speaks for the ability of the Ming to field a considerable army at the time.

2. During the Battle of Songshan, which took place after the first Manchu invasion of Korea, the Ming troops numbered 130,000, outnumbering the entire Manchu force at the time. 

Conclusion: The Ming had the strength to aid Korea if its policy allowed it to.

After the Ming victory at Ningyuan - which led ot Nurachi's death - Ming Viceroy of the Liaodong Yuan Chonghuan adopted a defensive strategy, signing a peace pact with the Manchus so that he could build up the defenses around the Ningyuan-Shongshan front.  The strategy was sound, because Yuan judged correctly that the best way to defeat the Manchus was through defense and attrition.

Yet, the temporary armistice gave the Manchus time to eliminate two thorns along its way to defeating the Ming Empire by 1. subjugating the Southern Mongols  2. making Choson Korea a vassal

While the Manchu subjugation of the Southern Mongols was to a certain extent inevitable, the Manchu subjugation of Korea was not.  At the Yalu River junction, the Ming relied on warlord Mao Wenlong, who provided support against the Manchus as well as a link with Choson Korea.  Yuan Chonghuan's execution of Mao Wenlong consolidated Ming leadership in the northeast region, but also undermined support, especially from Mao's former subjects. 

Geographically and strategically, Choson Korea had more to gain by allying with the Ming.  IMHO, Ming emperor Chongzhen should have taken the following steps:

1. Invading the Yellow River Region around Southern Inner Mongolia, a region that bred horses in great quantities, so that it could organize cavalry more cheaply.  One of the disadvantages of the Ming against the Manchus was its inability of win open field battles as a result of inferior cavalry troops.

2. Sending aid troops to Korea, even if it had to be via Mao Wenlong.  Sending aid troops direct from Shandong is another option.  The link between the Ningyuan-Shongshan front, Mao Wenlong's Liaodong-Yalu base, and Choson should never be cut off.

3. Yuan Chonghuan's plan would have been more effective with steps 1 and 2 taken in conjunction with building up defenses along the Ningyuan-Shongshan front. 
 
From a purely military perspective, this logic is flawless. However, you forgot to consider the already dreary implications embodying the landscape of the Ming Dynasty following Emperor Wanli's death in 1620, which would have forced the Ming out of war in the north anyways (and most likely why the Ming did not respond to the threat of the Manchus as they did in the past).
 
1. Decline in economic stability, with so much of the world's silver (thanks to the Spanish desire to buy Chinese goods in exchange for silver), the Ming at the last moment tried to convert currency back to copper, which could be mined in the southwest. However, this measure was a little too late, and the Ming economy felt the damage already, with grave inflation.
 
2. Agricultural output plummets in the 1620s and 1630s, coupled by a disastrous plague, a double-hit combo that sends starving farmers off their lots to beg for food in the overcrowded, plague-ridden cities. With more and more farmers begging for food, there is less and less farmers actually producing it. Vicious cycle man. Lol.
 
3. Because of numbers 1 and 2 above, widespread revolt and rebellion springs up in all quarters, with great contempt for the Ming rulers, who the rebels shout have lost the Mandate of Heaven, including those like Li Zicheng. Internal rebellion cripples the nation, allowing for not only the fall of the capital, the suicide of the last emperor, and the nation suddenly at odds with itself, but also Wu Sangui allowing the now-favorable Manchus in from the north (favorable instead of turning towards the rebels, of course).
 
So while all this turmoil is going on, the Manchus are not only building their power base in the north over settled peoples, but are also launching campaigns against the Koreans. When it was Japan in the 1590s, sure the Ming had a chance (although Wanli was known for neglecting a lot of his duties, but on this certain occasion he made the right choice, as Japan, despite the great effort of Yi Sun Sin, could have more easily overrun Korea if it had not been for the buffering of Chinese reinforcements adding fresh morale).
 
Eric
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 15:20
Very good Eric!
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