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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 20:10
Quote Hundred years ago Lika didn't have Istro-Romanians. Romanians have been assimilated hundreds of years ago before Tesla was born. There are places in Bosnia still called Romanija, Vlasenica, Vlašić, etc., but non of the population there considers themselves to be of Romanian origin. The are either Serbs, Bosniaks, or Croats. They speak South Slavic language.


Look what I have found:


It is said that the Ottomans brought with them nomadic Vlachs (Morlacchi or Wallachs, etc.) to settle land depopulated by either the plague or those who had fled or died during the Ottoman invasion. The majority of these Vlachs of the Orthodox faith were mostly assimilated into Croatian civilization by the 18th century, between Istria and Dubrovnik, and throughout the Lika, Dalmatia and other parts of Croatia. Often these Orthodox settlers along the Adriatic coast had been deliberately forced to inland Croatia by Venice and its Allies, during and after the Ottoman retreat (for example, the Uskoks of Senj).



If these Vlachs had been of Serbian ancestry as claimed, why is it that the land where they originated from was known as 'Turkish Croatia'? In addition, if these migrating Vlachs had been exclusively of mixed Serbian ancestry as claimed by their propagandists it is unlikely that they would have been at the centre of the enlightenment debate.



After all, the Vlachs were the virtuous so-called 'noble savages' romanticized by Rousseau. In conflict with Rousseau, Voltaire cited the 'Morlaque' of Dalmatia as an example of people who had a lowly place in the development of enlightened civilization.

.....

In one of many sources which allude to the true ethnicity of the original Orthodox in Croatia, Larry Wolff (in Venice and the Slavs) writes that "The heterogeneous Orthodox society of Zadar included Montenegrin officers and Sarajevo merchants ... and (others) from Corfu and Crete. The Venetians were concerned to reduce foreign influence on Orthodox Dalmatians, including the Morlacchi".



The presence of Vlachs is established in history, philosophy, novels, decrees or statutes, and place names on genuine original maps.



On October 5, 1630 Statuta Valachorum ('Law of the Vlachs') under Hapsburg King Ferdinand II acknowledged that the Vlachs would not be subject to the Croatian leadership but would instead be soldiers in the military cordon subject to the King; and in 17th century Venice a statute re Morlacchi.



Place names such as Latinski Islam or Grcki Islam or the Vlasko More, as well the existence of former Greek or Eastern rite churches in Croatia testify to the existence and identity of the Vlachs and other Orthodox people in Croatia.



The Vlachs spoke an old vulgar Latin language and used the Latin script and this is no doubt why only five per cent of Misha Glenny's so-called-Krajina Serbs could read the Cyrillic script, something Glenny incorrectly attributed to an alleged Croatian government policy instead of to their non-Serbian ancestry.
......

Likewise in Sarajevo, or Zadar or Lika, the churches now called Serbian Orthodox were originally known as Greek Orthodox churches which had been built or converted to accommodate the Eastern Orthodox faith to the various settlers therein.

The church of St. Ilijah in Zadar (St. Elias) once served the Greek Orthodox community there and not the Serbs.
...

St. Ilijah only came under the Serbian Dalmatian Eparchy at the end of the 19th century. According to the above-mentioned author Wolff, Obradovic, a visiting Serbian-born pioneer of Serbian nationalism in Croatia, was preaching in Zadar in 1771 to the 'Schismatic' Orthodox community, but was denied settlement in Skradin because Venetian authorities did not want a 'foreign' influence on the Orthodox Dalmatians and Morlacchi.


If the Orthodox settlements there had been Serbian then how would the situation arise that a visiting Serbian priest would be called a 'foreigner' by the Venetian authorities? If the so-called slavicized Orthodox were under 'foreign' threat from a visiting Serb, it is not likely that they were at that point in time of mixed Serbian origin.
.........

According to the book about the life of Pavlinovic, a 19th century Croatian priest, on the topic of the Orthodox faith in Croatia, the Orthodox peoples of Croatia were not Serbian.



According to Pavlinovic, the Orthodox in Croatia were members of the old Croatian Greek Orthodox church from the early middle ages, for example, Vlachs or Romanians, Greeks, and other merchants who had assimilated into Croatian society under the Habsburg dynasty.
........

To sum up, the Orthodox Minorities in Croatia include:

- descendants of original inhabitants of Pannonia or Dalmatia, the first Croatian settlers,

- descendants of Croatian Catholics who willingly or forcibly were converted to Orthodoxy,

- descendants of Orthodox Vlahs (introduced by Ottomans into Croatia)

- descendants of Orthodox Straddiotti (merchants originating from Turkish occupied Greece under Venetian era),

-other descendants of Czech, Greek, Russian, Romanian, Macedonian, Ukrainian or other Eastern European immigrants; and amongst this latter group Serbs are only one ethnic group who came.


http://newgeneration.croatianherald.com/History/tabid/99/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/971/Croatian-History.aspx

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 20:19

It is said that the Ottomans brought with them nomadic Vlachs (Morlacchi or Wallachs, etc.) to settle land depopulated by either the plague or those who had fled or died during the Ottoman invasion. The majority of these Vlachs of the Orthodox faith were mostly assimilated into Croatian civilization by the 18th century, between Istria and Dubrovnik, and throughout the Lika, Dalmatia and other parts of Croatia. Often these Orthodox settlers along the Adriatic coast had been deliberately forced to inland Croatia by Venice and its Allies, during and after the Ottoman retreat (for example, the Uskoks of Senj).

What have I been telling you all this time? These Wallachs assimilated with the Slavs- mixed with them and became what we know today as Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks. Same thing happened in Bosnia and Herzegovina, throughout Serbia, Montenegro etc.
If you call an average Serbian, Croatian or Bosniak with Wallachian last name (or origin)- a Romanian- he would probably take it as a personal insult.

Since most of the old Wallachs were Orthodox they usually mixed with Serbs forming what we now today as Serbian nation.


Edited by Larus - 11-Nov-2007 at 20:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 20:27
Quote If you call an average Serbian, Croatian or Bosniak with Wallachian last name (or origin)- a Romanian- he would probably take it as a personal insult.


It doesn't matter the personal feelings.

We want to establish the historical background.


Quote
Since most of the old Wallachs were Orthodox they usually mixed with Serbs forming what we now today as Serbian nation.



Haven't you read in the article that the Serbs in Croatia were one of the small groups of Orthodox people, the main being the Vlachs and Greeks?

Edited by Menumorut - 11-Nov-2007 at 20:30

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 20:34
Originally posted by Menumorut Menumorut wrote:

Quote If you call an average Serbian, Croatian or Bosniak with Wallachian last name (or origin)- a Romanian- he would probably take it as a personal insult.


It doesn't matter the personal feelings.

We want to establish the historical background.


It doesn't matter what personal feeling are like? That's the whole point of the National belonging- a personal feeling.

The Historical background- Tesla said he was a Serb. He spoke Serbian language, baptized in Serbian Orthodox Church, was a part of Serbian culture.
If there were Wallachs in Lika before the 18th century...well, there was no Wallachs in the 19th century. They were all Serbs (or Croats) by then.

P.S. Modern Serbs are partly Wallachs, but they are not Romanians. They form a single Serbian nation. Do you understand that?
I have Wallach roots, and I also have German, Hungarian, Greek, Illyrian, an probably some Turkish blood too. But the fact remains, I'm Serb, I feel like a Serb, and I speak Serbian as my native language.
As a nation Serbs trace their roots back to some Iranian tribe, but that doesn't changes the fact that they are Slavs.



Edited by Larus - 11-Nov-2007 at 20:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 20:59
Originally posted by Larus Larus wrote:


It is said that the Ottomans brought with them nomadic Vlachs (Morlacchi or Wallachs, etc.) to settle land depopulated by either the plague or those who had fled or died during the Ottoman invasion. The majority of these Vlachs of the Orthodox faith were mostly assimilated into Croatian civilization by the 18th century, between Istria and Dubrovnik, and throughout the Lika, Dalmatia and other parts of Croatia. Often these Orthodox settlers along the Adriatic coast had been deliberately forced to inland Croatia by Venice and its Allies, during and after the Ottoman retreat (for example, the Uskoks of Senj).

What have I been telling you all this time? These Wallachs assimilated with the Slavs- mixed with them and became what we know today as Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks. Same thing happened in Bosnia and Herzegovina, throughout Serbia, Montenegro etc.
If you call an average Serbian, Croatian or Bosniak with Wallachian last name (or origin)- a Romanian- he would probably take it as a personal insult.

Since most of the old Wallachs were Orthodox they usually mixed with Serbs forming what we now today as Serbian nation.


It is useless, his entire argument proposes some grandoise "Romanian" claim, it is as futile as our own internal sub-categorical claims (everyone is this or that former Yu natioality). Considering the fact that no one yet actually disagreed that he may or may not have had some potential Vlach ancestry he still is trying to drive a point home that defies logic and historiagraphy.

Tesla may have had blood that is Vlach, I am unaware of the Croatian Krajina siutation, but in the Bosnian Krajina many Vlachs were moved from Serbia, and other further Southern Balkan regions as a sort of landed militia. However, that does not denote him fully Vlach, or any other thing. Mixing was very common place. And as you have pointed out these population eventually became todays Bosnains Croatians Serbs etc...



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 21:05
Originally posted by Larus Larus wrote:

Originally posted by Menumorut Menumorut wrote:

Quote If you call an average Serbian, Croatian or Bosniak with Wallachian last name (or origin)- a Romanian- he would probably take it as a personal insult.


It doesn't matter the personal feelings.

We want to establish the historical background.


It doesn't matter what personal feeling are like? That's the whole point of the National belonging- a personal feeling.

The Historical background- Tesla said he was a Serb. He spoke Serbian language, baptized in Serbian Orthodox Church, was a part of Serbian culture.
If there were Wallachs in Lika before the 18th century...well, there was no Wallachs in the 19th century. They were all Serbs (or Croats) by then.

P.S. Modern Serbs are partly Wallachs, but they are not Romanians. They form a single Serbian nation. Do you understand that?
I have Wallach roots, and I also have German, Hungarian, Greek, Illyrian, an probably some Turkish blood too. But the fact remains, I'm Serb, I feel like a Serb, and I speak Serbian as my native language.
As a nation Serbs trace their roots back to some Iranian tribe, but that doesn't changes the fact that they are Slavs.



Nooooo haven't you heard National  belonging is a genetic contsruction, not a social or cultural construction. How dare you think logically. LOL

Point is he was a Serb raised, and thought of himself belonging, and vieving the world through a Serbian cultural and ethnic context. He saw himself a Serb, and belonging to his Croatian homeland.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 21:05
Quote P.S. Modern Serbs are partly Wallachs, but they are not Romanians. They form a single Serbian nation. Do you understand that?
I have Wallach roots, and I also have German, Hungarian, Greek, Illyrian, an probably some Turkish blood too. But the fact remains, I'm Serb, I feel like a Serb, and I speak Serbian as my native language.
As a nation Serbs trace their roots back to some Iranian tribe, but that doesn't changes the fact that they are Slavs.

The discussion started from Nicola Tesla was an ethnic Serb who lived in Croatia. What are the roots for his last name, it doesnt sound typically Serbian. I always asumed he was Russian.

If you don't want, you don't participate. I would have respect for your feelings if the Serbs would have respect for the feelings of others, but I know that the Vlachs from Timoc Valley, which are very numerous (without being influenced by Romania Romanians in the last 100 years) were recognized as ethnic minority only in 2007 and obtained the right to built a church with Romanian language services only in 2005, but this church is treatened to be demolished:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians_of_Serbia

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 21:13
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Originally posted by Larus Larus wrote:


It is said that the Ottomans brought with them nomadic Vlachs (Morlacchi or Wallachs, etc.) to settle land depopulated by either the plague or those who had fled or died during the Ottoman invasion. The majority of these Vlachs of the Orthodox faith were mostly assimilated into Croatian civilization by the 18th century, between Istria and Dubrovnik, and throughout the Lika, Dalmatia and other parts of Croatia. Often these Orthodox settlers along the Adriatic coast had been deliberately forced to inland Croatia by Venice and its Allies, during and after the Ottoman retreat (for example, the Uskoks of Senj).

What have I been telling you all this time? These Wallachs assimilated with the Slavs- mixed with them and became what we know today as Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks. Same thing happened in Bosnia and Herzegovina, throughout Serbia, Montenegro etc.
If you call an average Serbian, Croatian or Bosniak with Wallachian last name (or origin)- a Romanian- he would probably take it as a personal insult.

Since most of the old Wallachs were Orthodox they usually mixed with Serbs forming what we now today as Serbian nation.


It is useless, his entire argument proposes some grandoise "Romanian" claim, it is as futile as our own internal sub-categorical claims (everyone is this or that former Yu natioality). Considering the fact that no one yet actually disagreed that he may or may not have had some potential Vlach ancestry he still is trying to drive a point home that defies logic and historiagraphy.

Tesla may have had blood that is Vlach, I am unaware of the Croatian Krajina siutation, but in the Bosnian Krajina many Vlachs were moved from Serbia, and other further Southern Balkan regions as a sort of landed militia. However, that does not denote him fully Vlach, or any other thing. Mixing was very common place. And as you have pointed out these population eventually became todays Bosnains Croatians Serbs etc...




You are right, it is useless. But on the other hand I'm glad I had this conversation, because now I see we are not the only ones having problems with these issues (which are usually attributed by the complex of inferiority). Not long ago I thought only EX Yugoslavia has this problem.  Misery loves company...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 21:24
Quote It is useless, his entire argument proposes some grandoise "Romanian" claim, it is as futile as our own internal sub-categorical claims (everyone is this or that former Yu natioality). Considering the fact that no one yet actually disagreed that he may or may not have had some potential Vlach ancestry he still is trying to drive a point home that defies logic and historiagraphy.

Tesla may have had blood that is Vlach, I am unaware of the Croatian Krajina siutation, but in the Bosnian Krajina many Vlachs were moved from Serbia, and other further Southern Balkan regions as a sort of landed militia. However, that does not denote him fully Vlach, or any other thing. Mixing was very common place. And as you have pointed out these population eventually became todays Bosnains Croatians Serbs etc...


I don't consider all the Romance speaking groups from Balkans a single nation, as you say. I feel related to them and that's all.


I just presented the facts I found.

The discussion was not about Tesla's feelings but about his ancestors.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Larus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2007 at 21:28

 Look man, I don't even know my full background- maybe my great-great grandmother had an affair with/ or was raped by a Turkish soldier, hence my great grandfather was born. It's useless to discuss these matters, especially here in the Balkans.


Edited by Larus - 11-Nov-2007 at 21:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 15:01
Originally posted by Larus Larus wrote:


It's useless to discuss these matters, especially here in the Balkans.
 
I understandBig%20smile,
Menumorut have you ever been to Smiljan?(It's very far away from your claims), it's more probably he was a turk...
and Tesla sounds slavic to me
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 16:46
If you understand is useless to discuss, than why you continuate to discuss?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 17:17
Originally posted by Menumorut Menumorut wrote:

If you understand is useless to discuss, than why you continuate to discuss?

 
It's nice to discuss on usless discussions thats why we continue discussing on usless dicussions


Edited by Illirac - 12-Nov-2007 at 17:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 17:32
We who?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 17:35
Originally posted by Menumorut Menumorut wrote:

We who?
 
 
Every one...the question was from where is the NAME Tesla...not from where Tesla comes from
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 17:44
Originally posted by Illirac Illirac wrote:


Every one...the question was from where is the NAME Tesla...not from where Tesla comes from



So, after you it was a linguistic problem.


I don't know the Serbian language, Tesla too sound non-Serbian for me.

How is declined this word in Serbian?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 17:49
Originally posted by Menumorut Menumorut wrote:

Originally posted by Illirac Illirac wrote:


Every one...the question was from where is the NAME Tesla...not from where Tesla comes from



So, after you it was a linguistic problem.


I don't know the Serbian language, Tesla too sound non-Serbian for me.

How is declined this word in Serbian?
 
I know croatian which is very similar to serbian but not the same...surenames can not be declined in croatian as far as I know...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 19:20
Croatian-Serbian-Bosnian-Montenegrin have a same derivative language, with regional, and sub-regional differences. The proper is Yugoslavian as a term for all, but I would call all four rather dialects of that, but not derivative of each other.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 19:29
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Croatian-Serbian-Bosnian-Montenegrin have a same derivative language, with regional, and sub-regional differences. The proper is Yugoslavian as a term for all, but I would call all four rather dialects of that, but not derivative of each other.
 
yes...but not the same...belive me, I know many serbians, bosnian and montenegrian and it's not the same...croatian alone has 3 different dialects(kajkavski,čakavski and štokavski) which are quite different


Edited by Illirac - 12-Nov-2007 at 19:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2007 at 19:43
I know all of that, I am from Bosnia, and even there there are different dialects, Krajina is different from Northern, or Eastern Bosnia, or from Hercegovina. Same for Serbia. Just saying they are all Yugoslav languages coming from a single stem, but have varied local dialects, and a obvious blanket dialect. They are mutually intelligible.

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