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Forum Lockedszekler in romania

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    Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 08:37
i want to ask ,who are the szekler in romania ,are they related to magyar people of hungary ,thank you .
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Post Options Post Options   Quote werbulchu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 09:49
The szekler (szekely) are hungarians, but they feel themselvs more and better hungarians then the others.
Sometimes I think they are right.
Si fractus illabatur orbis, impavidum ferient ruinae.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 14:14

The Székely ('sék-ei' in pronunciation) or Szeklers, (Hungarian: Székely, Romanian: Secui, German: Szekler, Latin: Sicul), are a Hungarian ethnic group mostly living in the counties of Harghita, Covasna and Mureş in Romania, with a significant population also living in Vojvodina, Serbia. Most of the world's Székely population live in Romania and they are tightly concentrated in an area informally known as Székelyföld (Szekler Land). Based on official 2002 Romanian census numbers,[1] approximately 1,400,000 ethnic-Hungarians live in Romania, mostly in Transylvania. Of these, about 670,000 consider themselves Székely, and mainly live in the counties of Harghita, Covasna and parts of Mureş. Székelys hence account for an important part of the Hungarian minority in Romania.
...
The Székely are of uncertain origins, subject to much debate among themselves and among scholars. A widespread theory asserts that they descend from the warrior tribe lands, on which the Magyars soon settled, along frontier mountains to defend against invasions from Tatars and other menacing people from the east. Székely people adhere proudly to their Hungarian identity.

Theories have been advanced suggesting Avar (most of the recent theories), Gepid, Scythian (Scoloti), or Hunnish ancestry, and some have dated their presence in the Eastern Carpathians as early as the fifth century. Some have also suggested the Székely, like the Hungarians, are simply descended from the Magyars, and that cultural differences with other Hungarian groups stem from their relative isolation in the mountains.

Many scholars believe in a two-fold Hungarian migration of Transylvania and the Pannonian Plain, one prior to the main Magyar conquest of the Pannonian Plain in 896. According to this theory, the Székely are a Hungarian group that settled in Transylvania during this first migration.

Others believe that the Székely had different origins, such as Turkic origins. A small number of scholars believe that they are related to the Scythians who may have joined the Magyars on their trek westward, and 'magyarized'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szekler

beyond the romanticized presentation on Wikipedia (which seems to be the creation of a hungarian nationalist) Szeklers were colonized in East Transylvania in 12-12th century, in the same time with the colonization of the Southern Transylvania with Germans (Saxons) by the Hungairan Kingdom, for the strenghtening of the extreme East frontiers. In 12th century the Szeklers are mentioned in West of Transylvania, in today Salaj county. The archaeological research (made by Hungarian speaking archaeologists) proves that there were not Hungarians or Szeklers in Harghita-Covasna-Mures before 12th century.

The origin of the Szeklers is as unclear today as before. Surely there is not about Huns or Avars, most probably they are a Hungarian tribe. They consider themselves Hungarians and are more Hungarians like the ones in Hungary, at least in their physical appeareance.
For example the senator Verestoy Attila looks like this:




Completing the information from Wikipedia, the area lived by Sekellians is very beautiful and they are a hospitable people. They were brothers with the Romanians in a great peasant revolt, one in 1514, leaded by the Sekellian Dózsa György

who was martyrized as many of the insurgents too.


In the medieval period, Seklers had a partialy autonomous organization. They were organized in some districts: Ciuc, Odorhei, Sfântu Gheorghe, Târgu Mures (Romanian names) which corespond with some depressions on the Western side of the Eastern Carpathians. It's the coldest area in Romania, very untamed and beautiful.

The Seklers were living isolated from Romanian population surrounding them, today few of them could speak Romanian. The natality is in strong declin, is the region in Romania with the lowest cota.

Sekellians are a big non-Romanian speaking enclave in the heart of Romania. Even they are more Mongoloid looking than the Hungarians in Hungary, it seems that they too are mostly Magyarized Romanians, as genetics proves. The area where they live was peopled by Romanians before, which where systematicaly magyarized and drawn away, as documents from feudal period mention. Descendants of these Romanians still live in some localities.


Naturaly, the area is mountainous, the mountains being of   voulcanic origin. The woods is predominantly of coniferes. There are very fine landscapes everywere but the most spectacular are the Bicaz gorges, the lake Saint Anne voulcanic crater) and Red Lake (result of a earth slide in 19th century), the Olt and Mures valleys (these two great Romanian rivers are springing from here).

Also the historical cities of Târgu Mures, Odorhei, Târgu Secuiesc, several castles and fortresses.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote CelticScythian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 07:06
Thank you for the great information and beautiful photographs!Clap

--Thomas


Edited by CelticScythian - 17-Sep-2006 at 07:08
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 10:31
Originally posted by rodimus prime

i want to ask ,who are the szekler in romania ,are they related to magyar people of hungary ,thank you .
Menumorut is right. The Szeklers moved to Transylvania in the 12th century. Before that time they lived in separated groups on other borderlands of Hungary. This is why some historians beleive that the ancestors of the Szeklers were originally people with various ethnic origin who colonized the same areas and has the same rights.
 
The Romanian theory that they are magyarized Romanians are questionable. In my personal opinion its a creation of Romanian nationalists. For example a notable Romanian historian Stefan Pascu thought that they are a mixture of varoius nomadic tribes like: Huns, Avars, Khazars, Pechenegs etc.
 
If you want a non-Hungarian, non-Romanian view about them look after the works of Hansgerd Göckejan, a German sholar.
(->Hansgerd Göckejan: Hilfsvölker und grenzwächter im mittelalterlichen Ungarn. Quellen und studien zur geschichte des östlichen Europa. Band V. Wiesbaden 1972.)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 12:01

Some historians (of course of Bulgarian origin Smile) believe that Szeklers are close or the same as Esegel -- on of tribes that came to Volga Bulgaria with other tribes. It was mentioned by Ibn Fadlan and Ibn Ruste for example.

Esegels (or Äsägel) were Eurasian nomads, that joined the Volga Bulgaria state and were assimilated to Bolgars. They were probably of Turkic or perhaps Ugric origin. They are supposed to have originated from Central Asian tribe Chigil or Ishkil. Their living in Volga Bulgaria in 9th-10th centuries was also mentioned at ibn Fadlan.

According to some theories, the modern Szeklers are the descendants of the Esegels.

 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 15:58


The Romanian theory that they are magyarized Romanians are questionable. In my personal opinion its a creation of Romanian nationalists.


It's surely that much (or most) of the Transylvanian Hungarians are magyarized Romanians who catholicized themselves and adopted the Magyar language in all the period between 11th and 16th century.

About the Sekellians, is hard for me to believe that they found an empty land. Their Europid look doesn't seems to be very different of the Romanians'.


For example a notable Romanian historian Stefan Pascu thought that they are a mixture of varoius nomadic tribes like: Huns, Avars, Khazars, Pechenegs etc.


I think in 9th century we cann't speak more about Huns, they already have mixed with other peoples for centuries.
The Sekellians doesn't seem to have been magyarized before their colonization, they seem to have been an already Magyar speaking group and that mean they are not a different than Magyars people because Avars, Pechenegs and Cumans, by adopting Magyar language, lost their identity and became Hungarians. The Sekellians may be just a tribe of Hungarians and the preservation of their name may be best explained just by their Hungarian apartnence.




    
    

Edited by Menumorut - 20-Sep-2006 at 16:08

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 17:47

I read in one book (A.Stamatov, Tempora incognita of the Early Bulgarian History) that some information about them could be found in Hungarian Chronicle of Johannes de Thurocz. As far as I understood they spoke language different from Hungarian and with "non-mixed blood". Up to the end of 15th century they preserved their "Scythian alphabet" which actually was specially cut wooden sticks. After arrival of Hungarians to Pannonia they moved to Transilvania where they had semi-independent duchies until XI century.

What language do they speak now? Hungarian, Romanian or something else?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 19:18
    

Thez speak Hungarian and I didn't heard about another language.

Saxons, colonized in the same time, preserved their German language, why should Sekellians have lost their language?

About Sekellian runes I dont know, you cand search on the web, look what I found rapidly:


http://users.tpg.com.au/etr/rovas/inf/rovasE.html (fancy site but with some good information)

http://pedroiy.free.fr/alphabets/hongrois.htm

http://www.dsuper.net/~elehoczk/frmain.htm



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2006 at 02:24
Originally posted by Anton

Some historians (of course of Bulgarian origin Smile) believe that Szeklers are close or the same as Esegel -- on of tribes that came to Volga Bulgaria with other tribes. It was mentioned by Ibn Fadlan and Ibn Ruste for example.

Esegels (or Äsägel) were Eurasian nomads, that joined the Volga Bulgaria state and were assimilated to Bolgars. They were probably of Turkic or perhaps Ugric origin. They are supposed to have originated from Central Asian tribe Chigil or Ishkil. Their living in Volga Bulgaria in 9th-10th centuries was also mentioned at ibn Fadlan.

According to some theories, the modern Szeklers are the descendants of the Esegels.

 
 
Not all of them are Bulgarian. For example this theory was supported by a quite perstigious Hungarian historian: Gyula Kristó.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2006 at 09:20
       


A sad day for Romanians.
This weekend, a great ensamble of UDMR (the national and political Party of the Hungarians in Romania), including the heads of Hungarian minority in Romania as well as 300 majors and others personalities, have made a rezolution asking the autonomy of the so called Szekler Land (Szekelyfold in Hungarian).

The reactions of Romanian politicians is amortized by the trouble with the International Festival of Francophony, fifty presidents and other State chiefs from all the world being espected at Bucharest next days.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote brunodam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 19:10
Originally posted by Menumorut

       
A sad day for Romanians.
This weekend, a great ensamble of UDMR (the national and political Party of the Hungarians in Romania), including the heads of Hungarian minority in Romania as well as 300 majors and others personalities, have made a rezolution asking the autonomy of the so called Szekler Land (Szekelyfold in Hungarian).

The reactions of Romanian politicians is amortized by the trouble with the International Festival of Francophony, fifty presidents and other State chiefs from all the world being espected at Bucharest next days.
 
Well, Menorut, yesterday was a bad day for Romania, but today it is a good day: the European Union has accepted the entrance of Romania (and Bulgaria) with secundary conditions, from january first of next year.
As a european member, Romania is going to be bound to accept the "Autonomy" of the Szekler lands, but it is going to have "warranted" the
political frontiers.  It is the western european way to deal with the minority problem: no change of frontiers, only autonomies with related rights.
In Italy, for example, the problem of the Alto Adige/Sud Tirol has been solved in this "calm" way (solving a bloody terrorism problem), without ethnic cleansing like in the former Yugoslavia.
By the way, I liked very much your comments on the Bulgarian communities in Romania (and on the Romanian communities in Bulgaria) in another forum.     So, allow me to ask you your opinion on the Timok valley Romanian/Vlach communities in Serbia (as I have asked you in the Forum of Vlach area maps).   I am considering to write a book on the neo-latin people in the Balkans south of the Danube river, and every grass-roots information is very appreciated. 
Thank you.    Smile    Bruno
 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 09:56
    

As a european member, Romania is going to be bound to accept the "Autonomy" of the Szekler lands, but it is going to have "warranted" the
political frontiers. It is the western european way to deal with the minority problem: no change of frontiers, only autonomies with related rights.



I disagree. There are not directives for ethnic autonomy administration in the UE. This is even the motive UDMR hurried to make this, because after Romania will be integrated in UE, autonomous entities will not be allowed to be created.


But more important are the moral aspects: is not right to accord autonomy to a population which is the result of colonization and who was privileged in the defavour of autochtonous population, which was severely deprived, magyarized and exploited through the centuries.

Also, such measure would create a precedent. In the are of the (former) Saxon colonists, the villages are inhabited mainly by Roma people. This is an area big as two counties and is in the vicinity of Szekler region.


Hapily, the autonomy will not be put in existence (it was just a policital maneuvre of the leaders of UDMR which were accused by the radical nationalists that they are not representing Hungarian minority aspirations).

But this declaration will cool the relation between Romanians and Hungarians for ever. Only a contra-declaration will repair partialy this, but I dont think it will be gived.


...........


About UE integration of Romania I dont make great hopes. Romania is such a corrupt country that I dont think integration will cure its weakness. Ratherly, the political and economical Mafias will adapt to the new medium and is not excluded that Romania's integration to lead at an extension of corruption in the countries of UE.

Most of the corrupted politicians and functionaries are not Romanian ethnics but Roma-Romanian metises.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote brunodam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 16:41

I have only written that "Romania is going to be bound to accept the authonomy of the Szekler lands", without any references to "directives for ethnic autonomy administration in the UE".     These are two things very different, Menumorut.                                                                               You are too much pessimistic about your beautiful country: corruption is much more terrible outside Europe.    I have been in South America and Africa and I can assure you that Romania's corruption and problems are a "piece of cake", as Americans say.      Bye Bye,  Bruno

P.S. : About the minority problems laws in the EU, please read the " European Union Law: An Integrated Guide to Electronic and Print Research  By Marylin J. Raisch   at www.llrx.com/features/eulaw2.htm  "  
 
 
 
 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tar Szerénd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 15:25
Originally posted by Menumorut



The Romanian theory that they are magyarized Romanians are questionable. In my personal opinion its a creation of Romanian nationalists.


It's surely that much (or most) of the Transylvanian Hungarians are magyarized Romanians who catholicized themselves and adopted the Magyar language in all the period between 11th and 16th century.
 
Hi!
 
In such a sort time (500 years)we could "magyarize" the Transylvanian romanians and your brothers in W. and M.  under other nomadian rules could hold the antient culture 2000 years long??? ...ejnye-bejnye...
 
After my knowlidge in Trans. lived bulgarians and mostly slaws (f.e. relativs from the duleb's) Certenly there could live antient dacians-some thracians survived in the East-Roman empire- too.
 
In the saxon territorys were living the seklers before the saxons arrived so 60-70 years; the most names of the szekler széks and familyes are originated from that part.
 
In the Gesta Hungarorum yuo can read, that the hungarians after the pecheneg and bulgarian attacs (their horses were taken by bese-s(hawks in old hungarian) had spend 4 years in Transylvania.
And, some graves of hungarian border patrol troopers were found in Moldva and Walachia(not far away from Bucarest) from the 10. century. Than where was the land, that they had  to defend?
 
After that the magyars made peace with the pechenegs-that could happened in that 4 years- they leaved the most part of Tr. (exept the banks of the Maros)and began to occupie the rest of the K-basin.
 
The old walachian name of Erdély was Argil, wasn't it? (i'm not sure:-)
 
In the hungarian schools it is teached that the first time that

About the Sekellians, is hard for me to believe that they found an empty land. Their Europid look doesn't seems to be very different of the Romanians'.
 
Certenly there could live 20-30 000 people max. 4-5000 antiant dacians.
the others were surly a lot of slaws and some bulgarian soldiers.
Oh, and not the hole terrytory wich belong today to Romania was Transylvania, onli the half part. The others were the Partium, the Banat, etc, where from the hungarians only under the osman wars had died out.
There, and in the large part of Trans, man can't find any villages, geografical names, that cuold have a romanian origin before the 14 th century.
 
  TSZ

For example a notable Romanian historian Stefan Pascu thought that they are a mixture of varoius nomadic tribes like: Huns, Avars, Khazars, Pechenegs etc.


I think in 9th century we cann't speak more about Huns, they already have mixed with other peoples for centuries.
The Sekellians doesn't seem to have been magyarized before their colonization, they seem to have been an already Magyar speaking group and that mean they are not a different than Magyars people because Avars, Pechenegs and Cumans, by adopting Magyar language, lost their identity and became Hungarians. The Sekellians may be just a tribe of Hungarians and the preservation of their name may be best explained just by their Hungarian apartnence.




    
    
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 15:54
they seem to have been an already Magyar speaking group
Evidence?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 16:26
Evidence?


Mr. Chilbudios (have I met you today on a Romanian forum?), if the ancestors of the Szeklers have spoken another language, when could have took place the adoption of the Hungarian? Why there are no differencies between Hungarian and Szekler languages?

Do you somehow believe hat Szeklers are not colonists but an elder population?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 16:43
if the ancestors of the Szeklers have spoken another language, when could have took place the adoption of the Hungarian?
Though I don't agree with the way the question is issued, the answer to it is: a language can be learnt in less than one year. The Szeklers were colonized (i.e mentioned) there in the 12th century. There were a lot of Magyarized Serbs or Vlachs in the medieval Transylvania (like the wellknown example of the Candea knyazs becoming later Kendeffy). Do you think their grandgrandgrand...children speak today a) Romanian b) Hungarian c) another language?
As for their origin, the first attestations of their ethnonyms are Siculi / Zaculi. Doesn't sound convincingly Hungarian to me. Probably that's why there are still controversies on their origin.
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 28-Sep-2006 at 16:46
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 17:11
    
There were a lot of Magyarized Serbs or Vlachs in the medieval Transylvania (like the wellknown example of the Candea knyazs becoming later Kendeffy).


You have to make distinction between exploited populations, Vlachs and Serbs for example and privileged populations, the colonists. The colonists preserved their original language.

Cândea knyazs have catholicized and magyarized in 15th century, when the control over Transylvania of the Hungarian rulers was being stronger.



As for their origin, the first attestations of their ethnonyms are Siculi / Zaculi. Doesn't sound convincingly Hungarian to me. Probably that's why there are still controversies on their origin.


This name could have been gived to them by other people. The name Vlachs doesn't sound very Romanian, for example.
    

But, beyond their origin, what you think about what they are doing these days?

I mean this?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2006 at 05:30
You have to make distinction between exploited populations, Vlachs and Serbs for example and privileged populations, the colonists. The colonists preserved their original language.
How would you know who was "exploited" (I hope it's not a marxist approach") and who wasn't? How would you know if the colonists preserved their language or not?
 
Cândea knyazs have catholicized and magyarized in 15th century, when the control over Transylvania of the Hungarian rulers was being stronger.
But this process didn't start in 15th century. Though we don't have relevant data for, let's say 12th century, we need to postulate it otherwise there's no verosimile justification how a settling nomadic group would later (linguistically) cover almost the entire Pannonia and large parts of Transylvania. The population was either exterminated or assimilated, and I believe the latter option is more probable.
 
This name could have been gived to them by other people. The name Vlachs doesn't sound very Romanian, for example.
True, but this was not quite my point. Some consider their name Hungarian and relate their name with their administrative seats. But having in mind the first forms of the word I believe the administrative organization but most certainly its name and relation (szek - seat) are following their earlier presence and probably can be explain in a similar way with a large part of Hungarian toponimy related to "szek/szeg".
Also while the Vlachs are openly admitted as "Romanic", I don't know analogous description of the early Szeklers. The early Hungarian chronicles tell about them being the ancestors of the Huns or the people of the king Attila, sharing the same life with the Vlachs in the mountains. But as we see in Simon de Keza even the Vlachs were subjects of the king Attila. So ....?
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