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Forum LockedSupport the Return of the Parthenon Marbles

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 18:21
 
This is the guy who saved Elgin Marbles
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 19:19
This is the most known English  antiquities smuggler !!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 19:20
Originally posted by akritas akritas wrote:

This is the most known English  antiquities smuggler !!!

 
This is your unbiased view LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 19:34
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

Originally posted by akritas akritas wrote:

 They dont "know"  that  this staff consider as concealer product.Thumbs%20Down
 
This is NOT concealer product. British government officially bought them from a person who rightfully took them in Athens with a permission of a ruller of a state whom these marbles belonged to. Ottoman Empire as far as I know was internationally recognized state.
I re-post what said to British Aster Thrax Eupator  that the  known  Dr. Jeanette Greenfield in her highly regarded book "The return of Cultural Treaseures"" (1998, Cambridge) has this to say on the firman(who rightfully took them in Athens with a permission  as you claim):

""Although there has been debate as to the extent that the firman empowered Lord Elgin, the real issue in my view, centres around the fact that the original firman was never produced by Elgin in the House of Commons Parliamentary Select Committee in 1816. Only a copy written from memory was produced. There is no direct documentary proof of the right to remove the marbles. Even regarding such documents as exist there are arguments over the interpretation of the alleged wording which would not have been stretched to justify destruction of the Parthenon.""
 
The English Lord Elgin was and will be the most known Lord antiquities smuggler
My un-biased  view.LOL


Edited by akritas - 08-Dec-2007 at 19:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 19:46
However he didn't smuggle them from Greece, there was no such place as Greece, never had been a Greece and Greece would only come into existence in 1827. So I guess he stole them from the Turks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 20:15
They stolen from the Parthenon monument  and not from the Turks (that  were the sellers) or the Greece if we follow that nationalist  argument  that was not Greece or Greeks in 19th century.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bgturk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 20:20
I really do not see what the fuss is all about. After all it is just a piece of stone. Is it so difficult to build a replica and place it at the Parthenon?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 20:24
Originally posted by akritas akritas wrote:

They stolen from the Parthenon monument  and not from the Turks (that  were the sellers) or the Greece if we follow that nationalist  argument  that was not Greece or Greeks in 19th century.
 
There was no Greece and if you ever profve they were stone then they shoeldbe returned to Ottoman Empire or its heir which is Turkey Tongue But as soon as you post same argument twice I will do the same÷
 
In contrast, Professor John Merryman, Sweitzer Professor of Law and also Professor of Art at Stanford University, argues that since the Ottomans had controlled Athens since 1460, their claims to the artefacts were legal and recognisable. Further, that written permission exists in the form of the firman, which is the most formal kind of permission available from that government, and that Elgin had further permission to export the marbles, legalises his (and therefore the British Museumís) claim to the Marbles.[5]


Edited by Anton - 08-Dec-2007 at 20:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 20:26
Originally posted by akritas akritas wrote:

  if we follow that nationalist  argument  that was not Greece or Greeks in 19th century.
 
It is not nationalist argument it is international law. There are plenty of nationalists arguments in well know site though Wink


Edited by Anton - 08-Dec-2007 at 20:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 20:43
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

There was no Greece and if you ever profve they were stone then they shoeldbe returned to Ottoman Empire or its heir which is Turkey Tongue But as soon as you post same argument twice I will do the same÷
 
Well, if Turkey is the heir of the Ottoman empire in its region, then certainly the Greeks are the heirs of the Ottoman empire in Greece proper. I really don't know that you thought this argument through all that well. How far back are we to go in determining who is the "heir" to a certain political entity or culture? How do revolutions, colonizations, and conquests affect the situation? All you have done is set up an arbitrary -- and undefined, for that matter -- point in history, and drawn a largely subjective conclusion.
 
That said, I find it hard to get overly excited about the debate over the return of the statues. The British pillaged the majority of their colonies for antiquities, and it would be difficult to decide exactly what must be returned and what may be kept, especially since these are the property of a museum. The solution that seems to make the most sense -- if the marbles are to be returned -- is the scenario in which Greece would pay for the return of the marbles, the fee going to offset the cost of transportation, as well as the research and preservation work undertaken by the British.
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 08-Dec-2007 at 20:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote olvios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 20:46
Antiquities should return to the place they were found.An Ancient Greek object like a building or a coin from Athens should return there.

The argument on the existence of a state in a later era doesn't stand.It doesnt belong to the state but to the state in relation with its geography where the item belonged,where it was made found and used.

If escimoes had conquered Greece it wouldn't mean all antiquities would belong to the polar region..........................
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 21:25
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

 
Well, if Turkey is the heir of the Ottoman empire in its region, then certainly the Greeks are the heirs of the Ottoman empire in Greece proper. I really don't know that you thought this argument through all that well. How far back are we to go in determining who is the "heir" to a certain political entity or culture? How do revolutions, colonizations, and conquests affect the situation? All you have done is set up an arbitrary -- and undefined, for that matter -- point in history, and drawn a largely subjective conclusion.
 
-Akolouthos
Akolouthos, there are international rules determining all these questions. For instance, Russia is considered to be heir of Soviet Union in all aspects including state bebts etc. As for the rest  -- there is humanitary part of the question and juridical part. It is a mistake to claim that the marbles were stolen unlawfully. As for humanitary part -- for the humanity it does not matter where will people see it. London is visited in a similar number of turists as Athens if not more.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 21:29
Originally posted by olvios olvios wrote:


If escimoes had conquered Greece it wouldn't mean all antiquities would belong to the polar region..........................
 
The only reasonable thing in this topic was said by one Greek forumer-- Greece (as well as other Balkan countries actually) have plenty of antiques that are simply disrupted with time and nobody cares about them.
 
Quote
Antiquities should return to the place they were found.An Ancient Greek object like a building or a coin from Athens should return there.
 
Then I would like to ask the question again -- in the city of Voden (is it Edessa now?) is there any museum where one can place Voden inscription?


Edited by Anton - 08-Dec-2007 at 21:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote olvios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 21:38
You can call Edessa Pokemonland for all i care......I don't know what this inscription is but Greece doesn't have enough museums to host Greek finds(tens of thousands of items in warehouses) let alone Bulgarian ones.Even for byzantine culture.Prominent stuff go on display.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 21:46
Originally posted by olvios olvios wrote:

You can call Edessa Pokemonland for all i care......I don't know what this inscription is but Greece doesn't have enough museums to host Greek finds(tens of thousands of items in warehouses) let alone Bulgarian ones.Even for byzantine culture.Prominent stuff go on display.
 
You said it yourself.  As soon as Greece does not have enough museums to show Greek findings -- one of the place to show Greek stuff (Parthenon Marbles) should be the British Museum then. Prominent staf in a prominent museum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 21:48
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

 
Well, if Turkey is the heir of the Ottoman empire in its region, then certainly the Greeks are the heirs of the Ottoman empire in Greece proper. I really don't know that you thought this argument through all that well. How far back are we to go in determining who is the "heir" to a certain political entity or culture? How do revolutions, colonizations, and conquests affect the situation? All you have done is set up an arbitrary -- and undefined, for that matter -- point in history, and drawn a largely subjective conclusion.
 
-Akolouthos
Akolouthos, there are international rules determining all these questions. For instance, Russia is considered to be heir of Soviet Union in all aspects including state bebts etc. As for the rest  -- there is humanitary part of the question and juridical part. It is a mistake to claim that the marbles were stolen unlawfully. As for humanitary part -- for the humanity it does not matter where will people see it. London is visited in a similar number of turists as Athens if not more.
 
 
You will note that I made no such claim; I was simply calling attention to the fact that the argument you made was poorly formed -- perhaps it was a matter of explication, rather than any intrinsic flaw. As I have said, I can't get all that excited about the debate over the marbles.
 
-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote olvios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 21:48
Its a prominent find and most of it is in Greece.And they have a museum just for those stuff in Greece.The new one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 21:53
Originally posted by olvios olvios wrote:

Its a prominent find and most of it is in Greece.And they have a museum just for those stuff in Greece.The new one.
 
You started to play with words.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 21:58
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

You will note that I made no such claim; I was simply calling attention to the fact that the argument you made was poorly formed -- perhaps it was a matter of explication, rather than any intrinsic flaw. As I have said, I can't get all that excited about the debate over the marbles.
 
-Akolouthos
 
I didn't mean you but the whole thread. My argument is not that poorly formed. I am not professional and might be wrong but I suggest that there is no such a thing to claim a heir based on geographical principle. One of the examples is forbidden topic in this very forum Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 21:58

Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

Originally posted by akritas akritas wrote:

They stolen from the Parthenon monument  and not from the Turks (that  were the sellers) or the Greece if we follow that nationalist  argument  that was not Greece or Greeks in 19th century.
 There was no Greece and if you ever profve they were stone then they shoeldbe returned to Ottoman Empire or its heir which is Turkey Tongue But as soon as you post same argument twice I will do the same÷
So is better the museum to change the name of its  department to Turkish and Roman Antiquities LOL
 
Here a Turkish antiquity of the 5th century BCLOL
 
 
And the Label should be according your un-biased views .....
Figure of Dionysos from the east pediment of the Parthenon
that sold  from the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, the leagal holder of this Turkish antiquity
 
 
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

In contrast, Professor John Merryman, Sweitzer Professor of Law and also Professor of Art at Stanford University, argues that since the Ottomans had controlled Athens since 1460, their claims to the artefacts were legal and recognisable. Further, that written permission exists in the form of the firman, which is the most formal kind of permission available from that government, and that Elgin had further permission to export the marbles, legalises his (and therefore the British Museumís) claim to the Marbles.[5]
 
And the question is .......where is this firman if we speak with jurisprudential terms ?
The House of Commons Parliamentary Select Committee  still waiting from the Elgin to show the document!!
 
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

Originally posted by akritas akritas wrote:

  if we follow that nationalist  argument  that was not Greece or Greeks in 19th century.
It is not nationalist argument it is international law. There are plenty of nationalists arguments in well know site though Wink
Which  international law comfirm  the not excistance of the Greeks in 19th century? LOL LOL

 


Edited by akritas - 08-Dec-2007 at 22:02
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