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Forum LockedSupport the Return of the Parthenon Marbles

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 21:36

Having been the V&A museum where they don't actually have any real Roman stuff but have made perfect museum replica's of all the best stuff in Rome in pristine condition. I think we could shoukd swap the originals with Greece for a set of perfect unbroken replicas provided by the Greek taxpayer.

This is what all the fuss is about.

Elgin Marbles - British Museum

 

 

Pergamon - Berlin

 

Now go bother some krauts



Edited by Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Amedeo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 13:18
.


Edited by Amedeo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 21:55
Perhaps one rule can be formulated which should become international law: What is appropriated from another country  (whether for good or selfish reasons, and under any circumstance) should returned to the descending population of that country which claims its inheritance.

Curious  how retroactive would you make this law?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2006 at 15:41
Finders keepers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cunctator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 21:11

I think the Greek claim should be ignored. The Elgin marbles have been in Britain for almost 200 years and are now part of Britain's artistic heritage. Moreover, being in the British Museum they are more likely to be enjoyed by far more people than in any other museum.

I don't like all these claims being laid against art or artefacts in museums. A good portion of the Louvre's collection was looted by Napoleon -- should we destroy one of the greatest museum collections to return it to countries of origin? I think not.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neoptolemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 23:49
I feel really sad to see people supporting British Museum's (and British government's) refusal to return the Parthenon Marbles. (Yes they are the Parthenon Marbles and not Elgin merbles).
So they have been in Britain for 200 years, eh? So what?! They have been in Athens, in their rightful place for 2200 years! They were internal parts of one of the world's greatest cultural monuments, the Parthenon, for more than 2000 years, before they were removed and taken away.

At least it is encouraging to see many people from Britain and all over the world to support their return. This keeps the hope alive that they will come back soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2006 at 12:27
Quote If they do the ''right thing'' and start returning, their museum is going to be empty.


Actualy they could just fill it with the tons British stuff which is currently sitting in the cellars.
Thing is the British Museum folks are all about prestige, namely having a collection that has bits of everything to make it a museum to rival any other in the world in terms of scope. So despite being a supposed public institution, they have the mentality of a private collector. Which is the real reason why any changes will be slow and stubborn in coming.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dampier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2006 at 13:26
Well to give the rough British view;
1. Elgin bought the Marbles, private property.
2. By taking them out Elgin saved the Marbles (when he first went there a bunch of Janniserries were shooting them and they had been ignored for years)
3.Can Greece prove they can look after the Marbles as well as the BM? There was a recent case where the Nigerian Head of Museums (or somesuch) said things should not be returned because Nigeria could not look after them. Obviously Greece is not Nigeria but...
4. Do the Greeks have a right to them? (as they were bought). After all Britain cant send back everything we've taken and neither can any museum.
 
As for the prestige...well prestige pays. And such a mentality works well. I've worked at the Wallace collection and British artifacts lack the 'exotic' factor that brings people in. Not only that but its not a museum about Britain, its a museum about the world in Britain.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neoptolemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2006 at 21:19
Pathetic claims...
1. Bought them from whom? Ottomans? What gives ottomans the right to sell a, more than 2000 years old, Greek temple or part of it to an individual. Remember, Ottoman Turks were occupying Greece.
2. We thank Elgin very much to take the initiative to save the Parthenon marbles... Now that he made a profit out of it and the British Museum has also made big money out of it, it's about time to return them where they belong.
3. That goes beyond pathetic...
4. If by "right" you mean it in legal terms, see 1. In any case, the "legal" approach will get you nowhere, because no "International Law" exists for that matter. Common sense will tell you that their rightfull place is the Parthenon.

For the British Museum (and the British Government) my friend, it's all about money and prestige...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2006 at 05:52
Originally posted by Dampier Dampier wrote:

Well to give the rough British view;
1. Elgin bought the Marbles, private property.
2. By taking them out Elgin saved the Marbles (when he first went there a bunch of Janniserries were shooting them and they had been ignored for years)
3.Can Greece prove they can look after the Marbles as well as the BM? There was a recent case where the Nigerian Head of Museums (or somesuch) said things should not be returned because Nigeria could not look after them. Obviously Greece is not Nigeria but...
4. Do the Greeks have a right to them? (as they were bought). After all Britain cant send back everything we've taken and neither can any museum.
 
As for the prestige...well prestige pays. And such a mentality works well. I've worked at the Wallace collection and British artifacts lack the 'exotic' factor that brings people in. Not only that but its not a museum about Britain, its a museum about the world in Britain.
 
Ok, I can see that neoptolemos got pretty upset, LOL so I'll try to respond presenting arguments...
 
1. He didn't actually "bought" them. He got a firman (permit) from the Sultan to remove statues from Athens. He was the Brittish ambassador to the ottoman empire and the Sultan: a. didn't give a damn about some old statues in Greece b. wanted to keep Britain happy. But even this "permit" is disputted.
 
2. True, the Parthenon was grossly mistrated and that was the argument Elgin used to justify his actions. Obvioously that argument doesn't apply any more.
 
3. same as above, plus Greece is at the frontline of archaeological research. The new Acropolis Museums, designed by Bernard Tschumi, which will be ready soon is a state of the art one: http://www.greece.org/parthenon/marbles/museum.htm
 
4. Same as point #1. One more thing, the Parthenon marbles are not staues, they're integral parts of the building of Parthenon, from which they had to be saw off to be removed!  
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GreekTragedy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 11:04

.



Edited by GreekTragedy - 19-May-2006 at 11:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GreekTragedy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 11:21
Well heres my Greek point of view, I dont see anything wrong with the british museum having Greek artifacts, i think its beautiful, the fact that other countries are interested in keeping artifacts from places like greece and egypt is a huge compliment. these cultures and histories were big on their own but got bigger when other people became interested in them, the good thing about museums is that you see things from other countries, and these countries got even bigger from museums. yes they were stolen but it has helped these cultures remain huge in history. not everyone gets a chance to go to greece to see it.so museums help a great deal to see pieces of history they dreamed about for a long time, Granted Greece has had alot of Tragedies hint the name, like Turks coming in and taking places Greeks made famous, but even if Greece got these items back, Greek culture is spread out further than modern Greece anyway, i know i have to go to other countries to see Greek history, so whats one more stop to Britian, ya it sucks not everything will be in Greece but one huge reason Greeks got huge is being all over the place, and yes these items are belonging to Greece and its Greek history not British, but you have to realize other people besides Greeks are interested in our history and thats a good thing, not every country can say that. museums are a good thing they keep history alive , its great for learning,  people can learn about your culture, and your culture gets bigger not being in your country, seeing it in a museum will make people want to go to that country as well. and i dont know about you but im not going to a museum and see some replica, whats the point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kotsos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 11:41
Certainly, a thievery of something sacred like that of Parthenon is bad.


Considering the damage done by the brittish maintance i think it would be better if we fully reconstruct the missing parts of the monument with marble from mt. Penteli, the same used by the ancients. Same quality and class, and then do some painting.


It would be better if the particular place and others is reconstructed (fully, with identical quality pieces). After that we can ask for compensations and let them have the damaged onesLOL




Edited by Kotsos - 01-Jun-2006 at 11:42

nje faqe nje fare
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 10:57

I believe every historical work,monument etc. shall be brought back to its original place.

Germans,English,French, all had stolen many artifacts during the imperial era from different countries and now exhibiting them in their own museums...
 
Turkey,Egypt and Greece are probably the most-suffering ones among those countries...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mico5bei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 10:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ellinas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2006 at 08:35
If the "greek" goverment was really Greek, they would already make clear to the Brits that there would be no Olympic flame for the London Olympics before the marbles are back.
 
And let them make a fake flame of their own if they wanted to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2006 at 11:07
Originally posted by Ellinas Ellinas wrote:

no Olympic flame for the London Olympics before the marbles are back. 
 
Or we could kidnap the queen, that should make the Brits return them Big smile
 
Ellinas, have you lost your marbles? (excuse the pun, it was too obvious) Embarrassed  
 
Do you think negotiations and friendly relations are possible to maintain with ultimatums or blackmail???
 
 
 
 


Edited by Yiannis - 10-Jul-2006 at 11:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 01:23
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

I believe the Heritage Secretary during Margaret thatcher's time actually answered this question when asked and he replied. "We'll return the Elgin Marble's when the French return the Bayeux Tapestry"

 
What are you talking about? Why do you think the tapestry is called the tapestry of Bayeux? Because the normans (Odo of Bayeux) ordered the tapestry, and is therefore property of the French. It is irrelevent whether the anglo-saxons made it. The English has no claim on this tapestry.
 
Tapestry of bayeux is definitely French heritage. It is irrelevent whether the conquered Anglo-saxons made it or no; it was the normans that ordered the Tapestry and should therefore remain in Normandy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 01:27
Originally posted by Cunctator Cunctator wrote:

I don't like all these claims being laid against art or artefacts in museums. A good portion of the Louvre's collection was looted by Napoleon -- should we destroy one of the greatest museum collections to return it to countries of origin? I think not.

 
Who is we? It's not that anyone can force us to give all those looted treasures. What France conquered, belongs to France. It's not our fault those nations were too weak or not smart enough to hold on to their heritage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 18:58
I'm not really sure about where i stand in this matter- it's just so difficult to decide, but one thing that i am sure about is that if we return these, it would raise the possability to for returning other pieces of Archeology which would start a huge re-organization of pieces. It is important, however that the Greeks have their heritage back. If it were one small temple statue that would be a little different but this is the entire Frieze of one of the largest and most magnificent temples in the Hellenistic world- it needs to be adressed carefully.
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