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Forum LockedSupport the Return of the Parthenon Marbles

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konstantinius View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2007 at 20:24
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

Originally posted by akritas akritas wrote:

For the Greeks   might be a cultural issue but for the British  is the issue of profit  because without the Parthenon marbles the British Museum would not be so visitable.
 
Akritas, do you really believe in this? LOL Last time I was in British Museum I saw people not only in Parthenon Marbles but all other halls as well.


..halls that exhibit other LOOTED materials?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2007 at 20:26
Originally posted by the japanese the japanese wrote:

Dear friends,
 
I'm new at this forum so I don't know what other members said before. I only have a question......why not make a poll here to see what most people think ?? What's wrong with this ??
 


the japanese, here's your poll: if you're Greek, you  vote for return. If you're not, you abstain or vote against.
" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2007 at 22:26

Tthe reason there is no poll is because the guy who keeps this thread going is a wimp who fears losing. Talk about being insecure!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2007 at 07:58
Originally posted by elenos elenos wrote:

Tthe reason there is no poll is because the guy who keeps this thread going is a wimp who fears losing. Talk about being insecure!

 
40% of people felt the marbles should be returned, while 16% believed they should remain at the prestigious museum.
 
 
====================================================
 
 
Should the British Museum give the Elgin Marbles back to Greece?
 
Yes, and right away.............35%
Yes, eventually...................23%
No. ..................................38%
 
 
====================================================
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2007 at 08:33
How about a poll on this particular forum where our wise contributors know more than the average person what issues are involved?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote the japanese Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Dec-2007 at 13:30
I think British or anyone else who is not Greek must not vote if the Marbles should be returned in Greece or not. The murbles were made by Greeks (not from British) so Greeks own them. Elgin took them from Greece, they were not found in Britain so Greece owns them. Let's suppose that I'm going in another country and there I find a small statue. If I would take it to my country IS or NOT a theft ?? ! British and Britain have no relation with those murbles. By the time Greeks were bulding Parthenon British were nowhere.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Dec-2007 at 15:19
It's not a matter of who made it. There are thousands of Greek, Egyptian and other artifacts around the world.

This is a special case cause it's a part of a larger exhibit that is half without it. It's like cutting half a pyramid and taking it, or removing the clock from Big Ben. One should be with the other.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote the japanese Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Dec-2007 at 21:27

Dear "Vorian",

yeah you're right and I agree with you. But the Egyptian/Greek and any other artifacts around the world were found in the country who keeps them now, not taken from the country of origin. For example Greece never asked about any artifact found in coasts of Spain because simply they were found there not stolen from the heart of Greece !


Edited by the japanese - 24-Dec-2007 at 21:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Dec-2007 at 22:31
Er...I don't understand.

Of course Greek artifacts have been found from Spain to India but many of the most famous come from Greece.

Nice of Samothraki, Aphroditi of Milos both found in Greek islands and now stand in a foreign museum. You don't see Greece asking for them?
And how many thousands of Egyptian, Aztec, Mayan, Summerian, Persian, Babylonian artifacts are exhibited abroad?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote the japanese Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2007 at 06:59
Yeah, we say exactly the same thing. Greece asks for them as they (the artifacts) were found here but for some reason (maybe theft or something else) now are exhibited in a foreign museum. But it's a different thing if the artifacts are Greek but they was found in the country which exhibits them now. Sorry for maybe being misunderstood. And many Aztec/Summerian/Egyptian/... artifacts are now exhibited far from the country of origin because someone took them from there. As I can see, you're Greek. If you don't understand me contact me, if you wish, to explain you in our language.     

Edited by the japanese - 25-Dec-2007 at 07:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Amos_Sten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2008 at 16:25
Originally posted by konstantinius konstantinius wrote:

Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

Originally posted by akritas akritas wrote:

For the Greeks   might be a cultural issue but for the British  is the issue of profit  because without the Parthenon marbles the British Museum would not be so visitable.
 
Akritas, do you really believe in this? LOL Last time I was in British Museum I saw people not only in Parthenon Marbles but all other halls as well.


..halls that exhibit other LOOTED materials?
 
By looted you mean bought from the legitimate government of the time?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2008 at 21:36
Even as a Greek American I believe they should be returned and it is the only thing the Greeks have asked for. I am been to the British Musuem twice and yes they have looted the world. But, on the other hand these artifacts are probably more secure than there place of origin. I would not have had the chance to see many Greeks artifacts if they were not in the British museum or so I thought because I did not know if I would ever go to Greece at that point in my life.
In my opinion it shows arrogance by the Brits in their refusal to return them, maybe a refusal to let go of the days of Empire!! control control!!
I believe these artifacts would be as safe in Athens, minus the earthqaukes-lol, then in London.
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kafkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 22:12
They should definitely be returned. Turkey is having the same problems with massive amounts of its Trojan heritage stolen by Germans, which in turn were pilfered by Russians during WWII.

Luckily my little ethnic sub-group of Karapapaks hasn't built anything that old to be considered "treasure" by foreign powers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Julius Augustus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 10:12
this is placed in a nationalistic point of view, a lot of the art of the Middle East and Central Asia, India and  China never return, I support this one hundred percent, if someone stole a piece of our history I would be pissed, but the problem is, looters occur more in countries with a lack of nationalism, higher poverty rate then with countries with it, for example, I think Egypt, Iran, Afghanistan and Iraq have the highest looting that is why it brings a tear to my eye about it,

hence I say to france, give back the Obelisk you stole from Egypt, to brain bring back the marble, and to the Iranian government save Pasargadae, this is stealing from our culture, the world culture.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2008 at 20:55
This is an issue we can both agree upon but what can Greeks do around the world to pressure the Brits into returning this Greek national treasure?

In the USA a lot of artifacts have been returned to the Native Americans because of federal law so why can't the Brits return the Parthenon Marbles. I wonder how they would feel if the Greeks kept onto the Crown Jewels?

A good fictional story would be about some Greeks who stealthy break into the British museum and recapture it for the Greek nation. Of course, there would have to be a good plot, romance and action. Indiana Jones, James Bond type of outlandish action.

Maybe this could be an A&E project to help gain insight into the sensitive matter internationally.
Well then, brothers and fellow citizens and soldiers, remember this in order that your memorial, your fame and freedom will be eternal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2008 at 21:40
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

A good fictional story would be about some Greeks who stealthy break into the British museum and recapture it for the Greek nation. Of course, there would have to be a good plot, romance and action. Indiana Jones, James Bond type of outlandish action.

Maybe this could be an A&E project to help gain insight into the sensitive matter internationally.
Yeah... Or it could be a great way for a bunch of AE members to get prosecuted once some band of thugs attempts to duplicate the storyline. Wink
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2008 at 21:52
Only Hollywood would manage to find a plan to steal tons of marble from a museum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Julius Augustus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2008 at 09:37
amazing though, I salute the Greeks for their resolve, the Iranians heck their national treasures are being pilfered, they sit and smile and most of them sell their historical items for a penny of what it is worth. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2008 at 13:18
It helps that the economic status of most is not low....but there are people that sell antiquities illegally. I once found a broken vaze that is really really old, and I have it in my home, but don't tell anyone.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2008 at 17:41
Quote I think British or anyone else who is not Greek must not vote if the Marbles should be returned in Greece or not. The murbles were made by Greeks (not from British) so Greeks own them. Elgin took them from Greece, they were not found in Britain so Greece owns them. Let's suppose that I'm going in another country and there I find a small statue. If I would take it to my country IS or NOT a theft ?? ! British and Britain have no relation with those murbles. By the time Greeks were bulding Parthenon British were nowhere.   
 
That's really not the point - that logic could be applied to practically every other archeological object outside of it's own country in another musuem. Moreover, what do you define as "Greece" - to state that the national entity that was "Greece" existed when they were taken is sheer folly. Moreover, Elgin actually legally brought the marbles and practically bankrupted himself hiring barges to take them to Britain to prevent them from being ruined. Nobody showed any interest in the marbles then, the Parthenon was decrepit after having no maintence and being shelled by the Venetians in the 1600s in a young country which was still struggling after the Ottoman occupation. If they were stollen, fair enough, but the fact is that the Parthenon marbles were brought from a political entity that does not exist anymore. Moreover, you can't really equate current Greeks - or any other ancient civilisation for that matter - emotionally in a deep sense with the current inhabitants of that country - such beliefs are merely nationalist rhetoric and emotivist banter that don't really constitute anything.
 
However, I am always willing to look at both sides of the story, and after going to the acropolis and seeing the work that's being done on the Parthenon and the pollution in Athens being cleaned up, I think it probably is time to send them back. But here's a tip - watch the rhetoric - when I was up there one of the tour guides talking about the monument of Atallos near the Propylea was saying that the acropolis had been "raped" and that all Greek art had been "stolen" from the acropolis, which is obviously complete rubbish.
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