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Forum LockedSumerians were Iranian?!!

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sumerians were Iranian?!!
    Posted: 11-Jun-2005 at 04:49

this topic was started in the Iranian history forum under this topic (Topic: The greatest Iran’s Mysteries: Phartia’s Battery)

 

so here is  it.

i too dont know much about the sumerians but i have some encycopedias to check in

ok here what alreading been written

Originally posted by ramin ramin wrote:

Sumerians were Lurs and Kurds; Therefore, Iranians.

i asked ramin to provide sources

Originally posted by ramin ramin wrote:

Iranology - Iran before Iranians (http://www.cappuccinomag.com/iranologyenglish/001141.shtml)
You can also find the AGE of the name Khuzistan (Khuz + stan) if you read under Elam

i checked that source

Originally posted by azimuth azimuth wrote:

the source u provided is saying

as far as i understood this article is saying that Sumer , Babylonia and Assyria are Iranians?

and the rest he is talking about Elam which is not Sumer!!

 

 

--------------------------

this one is from Britannica

Sumer

site of the earliest known civilization, located in the southernmost part of Mesopotamia between the Tigris and the Euphrates rivers, in the area that later became Babylonia and is now southern Iraq from aroundBaghdad to the Persian Gulf.

Sumer was first settled between 4500 and 4000 BC by a non-Semitic people who did not speak the Sumerian language. These people now are called proto-Euphrateans or Ubaidians, for the village Al-Ubaid, where their remains were first discovered. The Ubaidians were the first civilizing force in Sumer, draining the marshes for agriculture, developing trade, and establishing industries, including weaving, leatherwork, metalwork, masonry, and pottery. After the Ubaidian immigration to Mesopotamia, various Semitic peoples infiltrated their territory, adding their cultures to the Ubaidian culture, and creating a high pre-Sumerian civilization.

The people called Sumerians, whose language became the prevailing language of the territory, probably came from around Anatolia, arrivingin Sumer about 3300 BC. By the 3rd millennium BC the country was the site of at least 12 separate city-states: Kish, Erech, Ur, Sippar, Akshak, Larak, Nippur, Adab, Umma, Lagash, Bad-tibira, and Larsa. Each of thesestates comprised a walled city and its surrounding villages and land, and each worshiped its own deity, whose temple was the central structure of the city. Political power originally belonged to the citizens, but, as rivalry between the various city-states increased, each adoptedthe institution of kingship. An extant document, The Sumerian King List, records that eight kings reigned before the great Flood.

After the Flood, various city-states and their dynasties of kings temporarily gained power over the others. The first king to unite the separate city-states was Etana, ruler of Kish (c. 2800 BC). Thereafter, Kish, Erech, Ur, and Lagash vied for ascendancy for hundreds of years, rendering Sumer vulnerable to external conquerors, first the Elamites (c. 2530–2450 BC) and later the Akkadians, led by their king Sargon (reigned 2334–2279 BC). Although Sargon's dynasty lasted only about 100 years, it united the city-states and created a model of government that influenced all of Middle Eastern civilization.

---------------------------

and about the Sumerian language

this is from Encarta

this from Encarata.

Sumerian Language, language of the peoples of the ancient kingdom of Sumer in Mesopotamia. Its vocabulary, grammar, and syntax do not appear to be related to those of any other known language.

The oldest language preserved in writing, Sumerian was written in cuneiform script. Its earliest records date from about 3000 bc in southern Mesopotamia; after about 2000 bc it was no longer spoken, having been replaced by Akkadian or Assyro-Babylonian, but it continued in use as a literary language until cuneiform writing died out (c. 1st century bc). There are four recognized periods of Sumerian: Archaic Sumerian (3100-2500 bc); Old or Classical Sumerian (2500-2300 bc); New Sumerian (2300-2000 bc); and Post-Sumerian. The existence of the language—and of the Sumerian culture—was subsequently forgotten until cuneiform was deciphered in the 19th century, revealing an unexpected language among the expected ones.

Sumerian is an agglutinative language, rather than an inflected one, such as one of the Indo-European or Semitic languages. Generally speaking, the root words are not subject to inflective change. The basic grammatical units consist of word complexes rather than individual words, and these grammatical units usually retain their independent structures. The grammatical structure of Sumerian resembles that of other agglutinative languages, such as Turkish, Hungarian, and some Caucasian languages.

Microsoft ® Encarta ® Premium Suite 2005. © 1993-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

 

---------------------------------

 

i dont see that

Sumer  or Sumerians are Iranians

 

and ramin replied with this

Originally posted by ramin ramin wrote:

In the link I gave you the author didn't say Babylon or Assiryans as Iranians! in the introduction of the link I gave you the author talked about the people in and around the Iranian Plateau. Please read the article more effectively.

About the articles pulled out off Encarta, I'm still wondering -- with no rejection to its content! -- is that the same Encarta you earlier discussed about map mistakes it made??


---

funny, I found this out of Encyclopedia Britannica:

The area that is now Khuzestin was settled about 6000 BC by a people with affinities to the Sumerians, who came from the Zagros Mountains region. Urban centres appeared there nearly contemporaneously with the first cities in Mesopotamia in the 4th millennium. Khuzestin came to constitute the heart of the Elamite kingdom, with Susa as its capital. Beginning with the reign of the legendary Enmebaragesi, about 2700 BC, who (according to a cuneiform inscription) “despoiled the weapons of the land of Elam,” Sumerian, Akkadian, Babylonian, Kassite, Neo-Babylonian, and Assyrian invasions periodically crossed Khuzestin in response to Elamite involvement in Babylonian politics.


Wikipedia.org:

Almost 72% of Iraq's population consists of Arabic speakers (mainly Iraqi but some Hejazi); the other major ethnic group are the Kurds (25%), who live in the north and north-east of the country. The Kurds differ from Arabs in many ways including culture, history, clothing, and language. Other distinct groups are Assyrians, Turkomans, Iranians, Lurs, Armenians (3%) and Yezidisą (possible descendants of the ancient Sumerian culture, part of the Kurdish population). About 2,500 Jews and 20,000 - 50,000 Marsh Arabs live in Iraq.

1. The Yezidi or Yazidi (Kurdish; Ęzidî) are adherents of a small Middle Eastern religion with ancient origins. They are primarily ethnic Kurds, and most Yazidis live near Mosul, Iraq with smaller communities in Syria, Turkey, Iran, Georgia and Armenia, and are estimated to number ca. 500,000 individuals in total.


algebra.com:

The Sumerians, with a language, culture, and, perhaps, appearance different from their Semetic neighbors and successors are widely believed to have been invaders or migrants, although it has proven difficult to determine exactly when this event occurred or the original geographic origins of the Sumerians. Some archeologists have advanced the notion that the Sumerians were, in fact, local to the Mesopotamian plains.

now the judgement is by you.

I have another source which is actually my main defence but i have no access to it right now. I believe I've read a book regarding this issue clearly stating the relation between Sumerians and Kurds. I know not every book is valid, but I'll try to find the book in my spare time and give u the title (though it doesn't worth it any way).

anyway, you know how much I hate altering the topics' original purpose, so why don't u open up a new thread regarding this, then you or me will give the link to that thread so everyone interested can follow it up there.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2005 at 05:25

 

Originally posted by ramin ramin wrote:

About the articles pulled out off Encarta, I'm still wondering -- with no rejection to its content! -- is that the same Encarta you earlier discussed about map mistakes it made??

yes and it has the same informations as britannica . i just didnt copy the same subject from both of them but here is it

from Britannica

Sumer was first settled between 4500 and 4000 BC by a non-Semitic people who did not speak the Sumerian language. These people now are called proto-Euphrateans or Ubaidians, for the village Al-Ubaid, where their remains were first discovered. The Ubaidians were the first civilizing force in Sumer, draining the marshes for agriculture, developing trade, and establishing industries, including weaving, leatherwork, metalwork, masonry, and pottery. After the Ubaidian immigration to Mesopotamia, various Semitic peoples infiltrated their territory, adding their cultures to the Ubaidian culture, and creating a high pre-Sumerian civilization.

The people called Sumerians, whose language became the prevailing language of the territory, probably came from around Anatolia, arrivingin Sumer about 3300 BC. By the 3rd millennium BC the country was the site of at least 12 separate city-states: Kish, Erech, Ur, Sippar, Akshak, Larak, Nippur, Adab, Umma, Lagash, Bad-tibira, and Larsa. Each of thesestates comprised a walled city and its surrounding villages and land, and each worshiped its own deity, whose temple was the central structure of the city. Political power originally belonged to the citizens, but, as rivalry between the various city-states increased, each adoptedthe institution of kingship. An extant document, The Sumerian King List, records that eight kings reigned before the great Flood.

After the Flood, various city-states and their dynasties of kings temporarily gained power over the others. The first king to unite the separate city-states was Etana, ruler of Kish (c. 2800 BC). Thereafter, Kish, Erech, Ur, and Lagash vied for ascendancy for hundreds of years, rendering Sumer vulnerable to external conquerors, first the Elamites (c. 2530–2450 BC) and later the Akkadians, led by their king Sargon (reigned 2334–2279 BC). Although Sargon's dynasty lasted only about 100 years, it united the city-states and created a model of government that influenced all of Middle Eastern civilization.

After Sargon's dynasty ended and Sumer recovered from a devastating invasion by the semibarbaric Gutians, the city-states once again became independent. The high point of this final era of Sumerian civilization was the reign of the 3rd dynasty of Ur, whose first king, Ur-Nammu, published the earliest law code yet discovered in Mesopotamia.

After 1900 BC, when the Amorites conquered all of Mesopotamia, the Sumerians lost their separate identity, but they bequeathed their culture to their Semitic successors, and they left the world a number of technological and cultural contributions, including the first wheeled vehicles and potter's wheels; the first system of writing, cuneiform; the first codes of law; andthe first city-states.


The linguistic affinity of Sumerian has not yet been successfully established. Ural-Altaic (which includes Turkish), Dravidian, Brahui, Bantu, and many other groups of languages have been compared with Sumerian, but no theory has gained common acceptance. Sumerian is clearly an agglutinative language in that it preserves the word root intact while expressing various grammatical changes by adding on prefixes, infixes, and suffixes. The difference between nouns and verbs, as it exists in the Indo-European or Semitic languages, is unknown to Sumerian. The word dug alone means both “speech” and “to speak” in Sumerian, the difference between the noun and the verb being indicated by the syntax and by different affixes.


---

Originally posted by ramin ramin wrote:


funny, I found this out of Encyclopedia Britannica:

The area that is now Khuzestin was settled about 6000 BC by a people with affinities to the Sumerians, who came from the Zagros Mountains region. Urban centres appeared there nearly contemporaneously with the first cities in Mesopotamia in the 4th millennium. Khuzestin came to constitute the heart of the Elamite kingdom, with Susa as its capital. Beginning with the reign of the legendary Enmebaragesi, about 2700 BC, who (according to a cuneiform inscription) “despoiled the weapons of the land of Elam,” Sumerian, Akkadian, Babylonian, Kassite, Neo-Babylonian, and Assyrian invasions periodically crossed Khuzestin in response to Elamite involvement in Babylonian politics.


?? does it say that sumerian are iranian?
and those mountains are between iran turkey and iraq now. so  nothing new here it says the khuzestin came to constitute the heart of the elamite kingdome , khuzestin as an area( from the replay above it says Elamite were one of the first invaders of sumer) sumer not khuzestin we are talking about here.
 
 
Originally posted by ramin ramin wrote:

Wikipedia.org:

Almost 72% of Iraq's population consists of Arabic speakers (mainly Iraqi but some Hejazi); the other major ethnic group are the Kurds (25%), who live in the north and north-east of the country. The Kurds differ from Arabs in many ways including culture, history, clothing, and language. Other distinct groups are Assyrians, Turkomans, Iranians, Lurs, Armenians (3%) and Yezidisą (possible descendants of the ancient Sumerian culture, part of the Kurdish population). About 2,500 Jews and 20,000 - 50,000 Marsh Arabs live in Iraq.

1. The Yezidi or Yazidi (Kurdish; Ęzidî) are adherents of a small Middle Eastern religion with ancient origins. They are primarily ethnic Kurds, and most Yazidis live near Mosul, Iraq with smaller communities in Syria, Turkey, Iran, Georgia and Armenia, and are estimated to number ca. 500,000 individuals in total.

 
possible descendants of the ancient Sumerian culture, part of the Kurdish population
 
i guess this will lead to if Kurdish are iranians or not?

Originally posted by ramin ramin wrote:

algebra.com:

The Sumerians, with a language, culture, and, perhaps, appearance different from their Semetic neighbors and successors are widely believed to have been invaders or migrants, although it has proven difficult to determine exactly when this event occurred or the original geographic origins of the Sumerians. Some archeologists have advanced the notion that the Sumerians were, in fact, local to the Mesopotamian plains.

yea i didnt say that they were Semetic so i agree on that totally

iam saying that they are NOT iranians

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2005 at 07:54

As Sharrukin said here: http://www.allempires.com/forum/get_topic.asp?FID=7&TID= 474&DIR=N Sumerian culture is traced any more remote in time than to the Kermanshah Culture (c. 7500-5600 BC) of western Iran.

And as I said here: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2094

At least from Sassanid period, we know that there is a city called Sumer or Sumar in Kermanshah province.

Map of Sumar, Kermanshah, Iran

People of this city have also been always called Sumari (Sumarian).

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 03:26
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

As Sharrukin said here: http://www.allempires.com/forum/get_topic.asp?FID=7&TID= 474&DIR=N Sumerian culture is traced any more remote in time than to the Kermanshah Culture (c. 7500-5600 BC) of western Iran.

well then it would be nice to provide us with the source

and if it is true how can people who dont speak any iranian languages be iranians?

and what is exacly an iranian people? people who speak iranian languages or people who livied under areas which is now iran even if they dont speak any related language to iranian?

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

And as I said here: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2094

At least from Sassanid period, we know that there is a city called Sumer or Sumar in Kermanshah province.

Map of Sumar, Kermanshah, Iran

People of this city have also been always called Sumari (Sumarian).

still that is not a proof that sumerians Are iranians. its a city and from the sassanid period , its like more than 2000 years between that city and Sumer civilization.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 03:59

Sumer=simir=Isimir=Izmir?

Oh they are greek.

city names are not enough proof I think.

 

 

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 04:20
Sumerians are obviously neither Semitic nor Iranic. It is proven that their language structure is totally different from both, and they were possibly nomads from far areas who came and settled in that region.. Their civilization spread all over middle east and then with these influences, the Semitic people developed their civilization.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 05:14

I didn't say that Sumerians are Iranians but I think that they have originated from Iran.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 15:01
Maybe, I dont know...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2005 at 12:31
ramin wrote:
Sumerians were Lurs and Kurds; Therefore, Iranians.

This is actually the bullyshiiit they wrote in this forum without any proof or fascist links.

Before i whas in the Iran forum, they tought Amazons, Scythians where early Iranians....... yearrrrrrrrigghttt

Anzimuth just laugh out them.......

OUT OF LIMIT
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2005 at 14:55
Scythia was an area is Eurasia inbabited in ancient times by people probably speaking Indo-Iranian  languages,known as the Scythians.If anything else Iranians are the closest family of the Scythians.As for the Amazons that is just a myth and some believe that they were women Scythian warriors.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2005 at 15:25
oh not another one of those "My name is Justice, I know nothing, proove me wrong posts.." ... try reading for once..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 02:24
You would be most welcome to proove me wrong dear...that is if you can.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 02:52
no point.. read the heading..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 02:54

and try to understand it

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 13:46
Originally posted by Murtaza Murtaza wrote:

and try to understand it

You want so much unfortunately...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 15:33
Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that the Sumerians were an offshoot of the Amorites. Are the Amorites considered a Semitic people?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2005 at 01:03
The Amorites were a Semitic people, but were not the originators of the Sumerians.  The Sumerians spoke a language totally unrelated to any other.   The only characteristic that relates Sumerian with other "Asianic" tongues, was being an agglunative language, a characteristic shared by Elamite, Dravidian, Hurrian, Caucasian, and Ural-Altaic languages.  The language of the Amorites, being a Semitic language, was an inflective language, characteristic shared by Indo-European languages.   Despite the fact that the Amorites (speakers of Semitic dialects) were neighbors to the Sumerians, their languages were totally different.  Even the much more distant IE language had slightly more similarities with Sumerian than with Semitic.  This becomes markedly clear when we consider how closely associated the Sumerians were to the Semitic Akkadians.  Before the rise of Sargon of Akkad, the Akkadians as a people were interracting with the Sumerians for at least 600 years.  Akkadian was never really an influence on Sumerian, but Sumerian was definitely an influence on Akkadian, mainly in vocabulary.  Sumerian, ensiak, "governor" became Akkadian, ishiakum, etc.  Despite this historic association, the two languages remained totally different.  Iranian, being an IE language was certainly not the language of the Sumerians.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2005 at 05:49

Sumerians were not Iranian, the same Iranians say they were Sumerian as the same Turks who say Scythians were Turks.

 

 

 

Why don't you take part in the below thread and present views of prominent neutral academics:

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3996& ;PN=1

Originally posted by Kenaney Kenaney wrote:

ramin wrote:

Sumerians were Lurs and Kurds; Therefore, Iranians.

This is actually the bullyshiiit they wrote in this forum without any proof or fascist links.

Before i whas in the Iran forum, they tought Amazons, Scythians where early Iranians....... yearrrrrrrrigghttt

Anzimuth just laugh out them.......

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2005 at 17:09

Quote the same Turks who say Scythians were Turks

No it is not. It is definately proven that Sumerians were neither Semitic nor IE. But Scythians, they were a mix of Turkic and Iranic tribes. We have sources, and proofs about that. We dont claim they were just consisted of Turks, but they were more than a single ethnicity.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2005 at 20:07
Obviously not you then, but the "same Turks" who do, such as Key.
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