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Forum LockedSumeria Older Than Ancient Egypt??

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    Posted: 01-Feb-2009 at 09:28
What Came Before "Ancient Egypt" or Babylon(Sumer)
There has been a great debate of whether Sumeria coming before Egypt. I have done some meticulous studying and thus found out that first King of Egypt was Menes he united the Lower and Upper Kingdom in 3100 BC. Menes was preceded by the Thinite Kings which was 10 generations before him. Whilst Egypt was always an advanced culture from the beginning. The land of lower Egypt and Upper Egypt was prominent with droughtful famine  Therefore it had to be advance before inhabiting this regionthis would be apparent because that culture would show signs of progression in advancement leaving behind remnants of trial and error of your advancements in technology but Egypt starts advanced from scratch. Although scholars say Menes was the first the Dynastic king some people say its Narmer who actually unified it but there is not enough evidence to support this claim. The other wonder is that they have other evidence of a people who lived in Naquada around 4000 BC.

What you have to remember is that Egypt has monuments such as the Sphinx that are 30, 000 years old, noted by people like John West. Also we have to define what we mean by advance the people of Sumeria were labeled the most ancient civilization because of the Necropolis and tombs had a lot of ornaments and silver jewelry that dated back 5000 to 7000 years. There is pottery found in South of Egypt that dates back to the Nilo Saharan period about 9000 years ago.

Now I have to disagree about Sumer(Old Babylon) being the cradle of Civilization because even the people that made Babylonian civilzation progress due to the tribute of the Akkadians ,Assyrians,& Amorites all migrated from Southern Arabia. Linguistic analysis and Geneology will show that the Amorites were western Saudi Arabians and The Akkadians Eastern Saudi Arabians. So that means they left the region of Yemen and Oman which is close by Ethiopia.The Migrational patterns show they may of picked up knowledge from Punt. The city of Qataban and the Himyarites were known to have traded with each other even until the time of the Sabeans.  The aboriginal people of the Euphrates and Tigris rivers did not prosper until the arrival of the Akkadians and Amorites. So these nomadic tribes would of have to bring some knowledge to start their civilization in from the Aden region.


One Important fact is that Kush was a civilization before Egypt,and Punt was Egypt’s Grandfather. Egypt states that Kush existed long before Egypt.The indigenous people of Punt were called “Agu”. They yielded and bred the people of “Barbara”,then came the Retu which were primarily concentrated in ancient Egypt. All Egyptian Gods were Nubian and even some of the greatest Pharaohs such as Amenhotep and Thutmoses consecrated their Gods in Nubia . Meru, Napata,and Jebel Barkal were significant ancient sites in Kush.

Osiris' symbol was a crescent moon and was God of  the Moon. The Babylonians worshiped the moon God Sin and seemed to derived it from Osiris. In ancient Egyptian Mythology the Sun god Ra was Greater then the moon god but not with the Babylonians. The troubling factor is that people claim that the Babylonians are the creators of Masonry but we have no evidence. We just know that we base our modern astrology on their system astrology.(no wonder were called the “New Babylon”)

The Sumerians built  Lagash ,Uruk ,and Babylon but were defeated by the Akkadians. Sargon founded the Akkadian Empire in the Millenia of  2270BC, while egypt already united their upper and lower kingdoms so you can say Egypt was the first empire,but which was the United City States.

Logically you would figure the earliest points of Migration in the “Paleolithic” would obviously have the earliest points of civilization.Meaning the more you  migrated and were  becoming nomadic the longer it took for you to settle down and build.


I don’t know how many of you are experts but which civilizations do you think came first “Ancient Egypt” or “Sumeria”?
Which culture assimilated the others knowledge first?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2009 at 10:06

Excellent post! I must say that on the whole I agree, but however, that it a few respects, I disagree - some archeological remains in Sumeria, such as the Shandir cave levels far preceede the pottery that you've mentioned, wares such as Al-Ubaid and Tell Halaf go back millenia before the Sumerian period. However, pottery presence in Egypt doesn't neccesarily indicate the existence of a "civilisation" as you put it - pottery from that period would be found all over the levant, and pottery cultures - aside from Meddigio possibly - usually don't have vast fortifications and settlements are are indiciative of a settled society with a political structure.

If we base "civilisation" to be in the creation of writing and a realisation of the concept of the past through that writing, then it would have to be Sumeria simply because of the amount of material that pre-dates 3000 BC. However, I must agree with you in the rejection of the consensus that Akkad was the first centralised state - Egypt far preceeded Sargon's founding of the Akkadian empire by about 800 years or thereabouts.
 
You make the point about Egypt, therefore, being a centralised and unified state before Sumeria, but the supposed unification has a few Mastabas with almost indecipherable pictograms and the word of the historian Menetho who wrote millenia later under Ptolemy II Philadelphius. Don't take the 3000 BC mark for granted - the presence of such Mastabas at Abydos and other sites does not neccesarily indicate a unified kingdom - unlike Mesopotamia, Egypt had a great deal of natural resources throughout its regions, whereas its' safe to say that any large Mesopotamian construct must by definition be evidence of a unified state because of the scarse nature of natural resources in that area.
 
Don't forget the artistic influence - you make the point about Punt being the father of Egypt, and according to W.B. Emery and most current authorities, the pharonic race - like the Hittite upper caste - was a seperate ethnicity from the original inhabitants of Egypt; ones which came from Mesopotamia. Emery emphasises that the only two routes through which they could have come are via the Sinai or Punt - the former is unlikely because of the presence of most of these so-called relics of early Egyptian dynastic kings are most based in the south than north. Punt itself is one of the origins of the early pictographic style that so eludes current scholars, which may prove emery's theory. However, what proves it for me is the architectural style explored in Mesopotamia towards the 6000s of lipped incisions into the sides of temples and other public buildings - this can be seen clearly in the Mastabas of the supposed 1st and 2nd dynasty, which are far later than the temples of their Sumerian cousins. If so, we are looking at an architectural heritage taken almost directly from Mesopotamia, but obviously one that under Cheops, had clearly went its own unique way! However, although the Pyramid was mainly a burial site, and the Ziggurat a temple, the Ziggurat at Ur preceeds the step Pyramid of Djozer.
 
Your point about Osiran worship is, I'm sorry to say, anachronistic - the god Sin was originally Assyrian and was only introduced into Babylon around c.500 BC by the last Neo-Babylonian Chaldean king, Nabodinius, which angered the people of Babylon. Recurring motifs and themes can't really be considered evidence of cultural interaction when they concern basic dieties - symbols such as the Sun, the moon and fertility are usually represented in similar ways across most of the world's ancient civilisations.
 
However, at the end of the day, the fundamental evidence for Egypt - or at least a large part of it - being unified before Sumeria is extremely large. I would have to concede and essentially agree with you - Mesopotamia was only unified in any real sense under the Neo-Assyrians, Neo-Babylonians and Archenaemid Persian empire. The points I make above are merely to play devils' advocate - there is still an awful lot of work to be done and evidence to be unearthed about these periods before we make any concrete conclusions.


Edited by Aster Thrax Eupator - 01-Feb-2009 at 10:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2009 at 10:38
All these sound really interesting.  Could you provide me with a link on those pre-Egyptian civilisations you mention?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2009 at 21:40
Just search for these keywords - Sumeria, Babylonian, Mittani, Hurrians, Neo-Assyrians, Neo-Sumerians, Neo-Hittites, Urartians, Chaldeans, Kassites, Ur III, Elamites, Akkadians, Assyrians... there is just so much in that period of history - I'm suprised that you haven't heard of the pre-Egyptian ones. One of the earliest - or perhaps the earliest overall - works of literature is the Epic of Gilgamesh, the earliest version of which is c.5000-4000 BC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2009 at 22:34
wow i never knew that Akkadians ,Assyrians,& Amorites came from Saudi Arabia
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The Pyramid of Djozier  preceeds the Ziggurat of Ur. Archeologist date its completion to 2100 BC,the pyramid of Djosier (Step Pyramid) was between 2650bc--2600bc. The undeniable fact that there was a writing system pictographs  whether decipherable or undecipherable holds no argument because reguardless we once thought of the Hieroglyphs as gibberish but once the Rossetta stone was found there has been a growing appetite to indulge in Egyptology. The Sumerian Cuneiform system was a pictograph writing also, and took the tutilage of Great Teachers years for them to learn. It was also flawed because you could easily make a mistake of one Pictograph for another. But whether or not the pictograph system is deicpharable we can establish that there was a writing system in Egypt around 5000bc-4000bc,it can be thought of as Mandarin Manuscript which takes years to learn for some people.

I'm sorry for the era of the God Sin. The Babylonians were worshippers of the moon and kept it in regaurd, but I do believe the main Moon God was Nebo. the son of Marduk. Marduk was a litttle bit in more in high reguard than Nebo but he was thought as the God of Babylon henceforth the "Guardian Angel of Babylon". Another Babylonian God of The Moon was Baal. The Babylonians are the ones who introduced Baal and Ishtar to the Middle East (later the Phonecians and Canaanites). Baal and Ishtar are believed to Be Osiris and Isis of Egypt. There would even be a ritual of mating from the Priestess of Ishtar and the Priest of Baal to bring about fertitlity. We can see the Egyptians did this by keeping the Son of Osiris and Isis, "Horus" the Ruler of all their land. The main coincidence is that Osiris represents wisdom and is the God Of Moon as is with Baal.

Yo cannot forgot that The Great Sphinx is 30,000 years old because it has rain erosion on it.So with pictographs going back before 5000 bc and the element of mass construction on grand scale it cannot be denied that Egypt does preceed Sumeria. I would like to know about the pictographs you have of Punt that proves that there was a a advanced sytem in Punt that related to Egypt.

One great Author and researcher on ancient Mesopamia is Austen Layard ,George Smith,Jacob Klein. I'm sorry but I would see if I could find more links on the Internet.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2009 at 09:05

The Pyramid of Djozier  preceeds the Ziggurat of Ur. Archeologist date its completion to 2100 BC,the pyramid of Djosier (Step Pyramid) was between 2650bc--2600bc. The undeniable fact that there was a writing system of pictographs  whether decipherable or undecipherable holds no argument because reguardless we once thought of the Hieroglyphs as gibberish but once the Rossetta stone was found there has been a growing appetite to indulge in Egyptology. The Sumerian Cuneiform system was a pictograph writing also, and took the tutilage of Great Teachers years for them to learn. It was also flawed because you could easily make a mistake of one Pictograph for another. But whether or not the pictograph system is deicpharable we can establish that there was a writing system in Egypt around 5000bc-4000bc,it can be thought of as Mandarin Manuscript which takes years to learn for some people.

I'm sorry for the era of the God Sin. The Babylonians were worshippers of the moon and kept it in regaurd, but I do believe the main Moon God was Nebo. the son of Marduk. Marduk was a little bit in more in high reguard than Nebo but he was thought as the God of Babylon henceforth the "Guardian Angel of Babylon". Another Babylonian God of The Moon was Baal. The Babylonians are the ones who introduced Baal and Ishtar to the Middle East (later the Phonecians and Canaanites). Baal and Ishtar are believed to Be Osiris and Isis of Egypt. There would even be a ritual of mating from the Priestess of Ishtar and the Priest of Baal to bring about fertitlity. We can see the Egyptians did this by keeping the Son of Osiris and Isis, "Horus" the Ruler of all their land. The main coincidence is that Osiris represents wisdom and is the God Of Moon as is with Baal.

You cannot forgot that The Great Sphinx is 30,000 years old because it has rain erosion on it.So with pictographs going back before 5000 bc and the element of mass construction on a grand scale it cannot be denied that Egypt does precceed Sumeria. I would like to know about the pictographs you have of Punt that proves that there was a a advanced system in Punt that related to Egypt.

One great Author and researcher on ancient Mesopamia is Austen Layard ,George Smith,Jacob Klein. I'm sorry but I would see if I could find more links on the Internet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2009 at 10:51
Originally posted by Aster Thrax Eupator Aster Thrax Eupator wrote:

Just search for these keywords - Sumeria, Babylonian, Mittani, Hurrians, Neo-Assyrians, Neo-Sumerians, Neo-Hittites, Urartians, Chaldeans, Kassites, Ur III, Elamites, Akkadians, Assyrians... there is just so much in that period of history - I'm suprised that you haven't heard of the pre-Egyptian ones. One of the earliest - or perhaps the earliest overall - works of literature is the Epic of Gilgamesh, the earliest version of which is c.5000-4000 BC.


I meant those Kush and Punt. Quick google search didn't help
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 05:28
you may be interested to check out my bits and pieces on this if you haven't already seen it at: http://www.geocities.com/lifetradition/egypt.html (and ditto/iraq.html ). Egypt was Silver Age.

Abzu ~ Abydos?  P-un-t ~ Van ~ Uan/Oannes?  Kush = Kur. "kings son of Kush" = from Nimrod son of Cush.  Magan ~ Maya (related to Ma/Egypt)? Unno (Osiris (water)) ~ Oannes (fish/boat)?
There is alot I could comment like this & other (Dionysos, Chedorlaomer/Himyar, etc) but to be careful/best it needs more time etc than this quick reply.

here is my own current provisional Egypt-Sumer synchronisms theory-in-research:

"ice age"/Flood --- "ice age"/Flood
ice age --- ice age/Babel/Nimrod
(naqada,) semainian --- uruk period <hrozny,childe>

(the above ice age etc may overlap with the below anywhere down to 12th dyn as evdiened by sphinx erosion, cambridge cooler/wetter evidence, surid flood, famines, etc.)

10 ks --- 10 ks
0 scorpion --- Kis 1 zukakipu <bristowe>
0 narmer/1 shudur-kip --- Chedor-laomer
1 ka-kam (-3 zoser) --- Uruk 1 gilgames/gud-ana
pyr builds --- Lagas <sayce>*
OK --- Ur 0 <waddell>*
(3/4 giza-)6 pepi,upe --- Kis 3/4 kubau,upe
(0/1-)4-6-11(-12) --- Akkad/ebla manudanu <waddell,oxford,net>
12 --- (Lagas,) Ur 3, (Amorite)
13 --- Babylon 1 <rohl>
15/16 --- Bab1, (Amor,) Assyrian, (Kassi) <josephus,velikovsky>
18 Amarna --- Kassi, Mitanni, midAssyr
22 Ma --- Assyrian <weigall,bey>
25, (26) --- neoAssyr
26 --- (neoAssyr,) neoBabyl, (Persian)
(26,) 27, 31 --- Persian


my previous eroneous scheme based on waddell's akkad-1st dyn thesis was:

0/1  selk/zekhen,menes,narmerza --- Akk sargon,manish,naram <waddell>
3,4  --- Lag, Ur3 <sayce>*
12th dyn amu --- Larsa, Amor, Bab1


The trick is that there are plural pre-dynastic traditions for Egypt & for Sumer, (kinglists, manetho, berosus, bible, archaeological/geological, classical, mythological, etc,) eg:


oannes -> ["chaldea"].

dilmun -> sumerians.

Shanidar/palaeolith -> Halaf -> Ubaid -> Uruk -> Sumerian/Lagas -> Akkad/Sargon ->  neoSum/Ur3 -> Babyl/Amor/Assyr -> Kass/Mitan -> neoAss -> neoBab/chald/sin -> Achae/Pers -> masons.

Nunki -> Shurupak -> Flood -> Kish1 -> Uruk1/Gilgam.

tiamat -> bel/marduk(bab) -> nebo(borsippa).

ham -> canaan/cush(babel) -> Babel/nimrod -> asshur -> ur/chald -> Amraphel ->masons.

golden(solar/fire) age -> silver age -> bronze/[brass?] -> iron.

stellar -> lunar(babylon,sin,osir,chandra) -> solar(egy,surya,Ra).

Kanam/Kanjera -> Helwan//Sabelian -> naqada -> Semainian;

0(narm/10ks) -> 1dyn(Men/uniEgy) -> pyrs/4(cheops) -> 18(nub) -> 33Ptol(Manetho,roseta) -> masons.

Ptah -> Ra -> osiris -> horus/gods -> demi -> manes.

UE/LE -> uniE.

sphinx -> 4th.

atlantis -> saite.

ham -> mizraim/canaan/cush -> (abe) -> (jose) -> (mos) -> sheba.

punt -> anc egyptians/gods.

iceage -> famines -> dynastic.

it is then a matter of testing possible similarities, correspondences &/or common points between these various eg Flood (ptah, menes, "ice age", etc); Babel/nimrod (ptah, narmer-za, etc).
Sitchin has some interesting stuff though not right about everything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 06:47
Originally posted by AksumVanguard AksumVanguard wrote:


What you have to remember is that Egypt has monuments such as the Sphinx that are 30, 000 years old, noted by people like John West.
 
And his mate von Dannigan mentions they were aliens too, so being able to build spaceships makes them pretty advanced.
 
If the Sphinx is 30,000 years old then the Empire State Building is a dinasaur observation tower built in the mid-cretacious.
 
 


Edited by Paul - 03-Feb-2009 at 06:48
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Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

Originally posted by AksumVanguard AksumVanguard wrote:


What you have to remember is that Egypt has monuments such as the Sphinx that are 30, 000 years old, noted by people like John West.
 
And his mate von Dannigan mentions they were aliens too, so being able to build spaceships makes them pretty advanced.
 
If the Sphinx is 30,000 years old then the Empire State Building is a dinasaur observation tower built in the mid-cretacious.
 
 


Quite the good sarcasm my friend but ,do I detect doubt that mankind was impossibly uncapable of making sophiscticated settlement  before the Mesolithic period.You do know that the city of Jericho is over 10,000 years old,Some archeologist detect Stonehenge to be 8000  years old,the ancient city of the Gulf of Cambay is suspected to be  9500 years old.
We also have to consider man being able to seefears.

I'm finding out about the the early paleolithic humans occupying the islands of of the Agean and Mediteranean  before 10000 bc and you call it what you may but I think being able to sea travel is already advanced.Some say the Paleo Indians may have reached America by constructing Inuit style boats landing on  Pacific coastal shores such as  Queen Charolette Islands in British Columbia and  the Pikimichay cave in Peru. Some say there was boat use in on the Kurite islands and Alutian islands  15,000 years ago. Theres evidance of maritime travel in 20000 years ago in Japan. "And if Paelothic Humans can seafear navigate its more than likely they may be able to use measurements and calculate" hitherto knowledge of masonry and building.

So erecting the Sphinx 30,000 years ago is viable since their really isn't any Egyptian dynasty to stake claim to it building it.  Manetho and Herodotus claims the there was an old race of Egyptians before the dynastic pharoahs and thinite kings. The first dynastic kings were called a race called retu But we'll never know because after the destruction of The Library of Alexander and the Ptolemic Gymanasiums being destroyed 95% of what our Egyptology comes from studying hieroglyphs. Imagine if the Egyptians papyrus would have survived,you would have to keep your historical theories in Bunker with "double clock security." Its funny that we got all our information from ancient sumerian cuneiform.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 08:39
The Sphinx is in no way 30,000 years old. Maybe you mean 3,000?
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And my the 30,000 year old theory is not from von Dannigan but from John West,can you explain the rain erosion in any other way I don't think you can.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 18:40
Originally posted by AksumVanguard AksumVanguard wrote:

 Quite the good sarcasm my friend but ,do I detect doubt that mankind was impossibly uncapable of making sophiscticated settlement  before the Mesolithic period.You do know that the city of Jericho is over 10,000 years old,Some archeologist detect Stonehenge to be 8000  years old,the ancient city of the Gulf of Cambay is suspected to be  9500 years old.
We also have to consider man being able to seefears.

I'm finding out about the the early paleolithic humans occupying the islands of of the Agean and Mediteranean  before 10000 bc and you call it what you may but I think being able to sea travel is already advanced.Some say the Paleo Indians may have reached America by constructing Inuit style boats landing on  Pacific coastal shores such as  Queen Charolette Islands in British Columbia and  the Pikimichay cave in Peru. Some say there was boat use in on the Kurite islands and Alutian islands  15,000 years ago. Theres evidance of maritime travel in 20000 years ago in Japan. "And if Paelothic Humans can seafear navigate its more than likely they may be able to use measurements and calculate" hitherto knowledge of masonry and building.

So erecting the Sphinx 30,000 years ago is viable since their really isn't any Egyptian dynasty to stake claim to it building it.  Manetho and Herodotus claims the there was an old race of Egyptians before the dynastic pharoahs and thinite kings. The first dynastic kings were called a race called retu But we'll never know because after the destruction of The Library of Alexander and the Ptolemic Gymanasiums being destroyed 95% of what our Egyptology comes from studying hieroglyphs. Imagine if the Egyptians papyrus would have survived,you would have to keep your historical theories in Bunker with "double clock security." Its funny that we got all our information from ancient sumerian cuneiform.
 
Argumentum Verbosium.
 
 
 
Dig a whole in the ground to a 30,000 year old layer beside the Sphinx and pull out a metal tool used for carving it, then you have a case.
 
Then disprove every piece of evidence found that shows the timed development of humans from the Paleolithic to the Bronze-Age.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2009 at 00:53
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

Originally posted by AksumVanguard AksumVanguard wrote:

 Quite the good sarcasm my friend but ,do I detect doubt that mankind was impossibly uncapable of making sophiscticated settlement  before the Mesolithic period.You do know that the city of Jericho is over 10,000 years old,Some archeologist detect Stonehenge to be 8000  years old,the ancient city of the Gulf of Cambay is suspected to be  9500 years old.
We also have to consider man being able to seefears.

I'm finding out about the the early paleolithic humans occupying the islands of of the Agean and Mediteranean  before 10000 bc and you call it what you may but I think being able to sea travel is already advanced.Some say the Paleo Indians may have reached America by constructing Inuit style boats landing on  Pacific coastal shores such as  Queen Charolette Islands in British Columbia and  the Pikimichay cave in Peru. Some say there was boat use in on the Kurite islands and Alutian islands  15,000 years ago. Theres evidance of maritime travel in 20000 years ago in Japan. "And if Paelothic Humans can seafear navigate its more than likely they may be able to use measurements and calculate" hitherto knowledge of masonry and building.

So erecting the Sphinx 30,000 years ago is viable since their really isn't any Egyptian dynasty to stake claim to it building it.  Manetho and Herodotus claims the there was an old race of Egyptians before the dynastic pharoahs and thinite kings. The first dynastic kings were called a race called retu But we'll never know because after the destruction of The Library of Alexander and the Ptolemic Gymanasiums being destroyed 95% of what our Egyptology comes from studying hieroglyphs. Imagine if the Egyptians papyrus would have survived,you would have to keep your historical theories in Bunker with "double clock security." Its funny that we got all our information from ancient sumerian cuneiform.
 
Argumentum Verbosium.
 
 
 
Dig a whole in the ground to a 30,000 year old layer beside the Sphinx and pull out a metal tool used for carving it, then you have a case.
 
Then disprove every piece of evidence found that shows the timed development of humans from the Paleolithic to the Bronze-Age.
 


Have you heard of the temple of Gobekli Tepe (10,000bc or more)  and Catal Hoyuk (11500bc)in Turkey. What does finding a tool used to build the Sphinx constitute they didn't find the any tools for stone hedge. Find the tools that built the sphinx, thats like a car saleman  giveing a prospective buyer a test drive but then the customer say shows me how it works then I will believe you.

It is rumored that Egyptians erected and pyramids,oblesik,mastaba without a lever or pulleys. They relied on man power and their is  always eveidence o tool craftsmen in that period.,But what can't be refuted is the SPhinx water erosion when the Pyramid of Giza of Giza doesn't even show an water erosion while the pryamid shows soil and wind erosion.

Now scientist are theorizing new concepts  about humans being far more advanced that  neolithic and Mesolithic period
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2009 at 01:00
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

Originally posted by AksumVanguard AksumVanguard wrote:

 Quite the good sarcasm my friend but ,do I detect doubt that mankind was impossibly uncapable of making sophiscticated settlement  before the Mesolithic period.You do know that the city of Jericho is over 10,000 years old,Some archeologist detect Stonehenge to be 8000  years old,the ancient city of the Gulf of Cambay is suspected to be  9500 years old.
We also have to consider man being able to seefears.

I'm finding out about the the early paleolithic humans occupying the islands of of the Agean and Mediteranean  before 10000 bc and you call it what you may but I think being able to sea travel is already advanced.Some say the Paleo Indians may have reached America by constructing Inuit style boats landing on  Pacific coastal shores such as  Queen Charolette Islands in British Columbia and  the Pikimichay cave in Peru. Some say there was boat use in on the Kurite islands and Alutian islands  15,000 years ago. Theres evidance of maritime travel in 20000 years ago in Japan. "And if Paelothic Humans can seafear navigate its more than likely they may be able to use measurements and calculate" hitherto knowledge of masonry and building.

So erecting the Sphinx 30,000 years ago is viable since their really isn't any Egyptian dynasty to stake claim to it building it.  Manetho and Herodotus claims the there was an old race of Egyptians before the dynastic pharoahs and thinite kings. The first dynastic kings were called a race called retu But we'll never know because after the destruction of The Library of Alexander and the Ptolemic Gymanasiums being destroyed 95% of what our Egyptology comes from studying hieroglyphs. Imagine if the Egyptians papyrus would have survived,you would have to keep your historical theories in Bunker with "double clock security." Its funny that we got all our information from ancient sumerian cuneiform.
 
Argumentum Verbosium.
 
 
 
Dig a whole in the ground to a 30,000 year old layer beside the Sphinx and pull out a metal tool used for carving it, then you have a case.
 
Then disprove every piece of evidence found that shows the timed development of humans from the Paleolithic to the Bronze-Age.
 


Please pardon me for the post above I have been studying all night and am weary and fatigued. So please excuse my typos.

Have you heard of the temple of Gobekli Tepe (10,000bc or more)  and Catal Hoyuk (11,500bc)in Turkey. What does finding a tool in which used to build the Sphinx constitute. They didn't find any tools for stone hedge. Find the tools that built the sphinx, thats like a car salesman  giving a prospective buyer a test drive but then the customer says shows me
the engine schematics design and I'll buy it

It is rumored that Egyptians erected and pyramids,oblesk,mastaba without the use of levers or pulleys. They relied on man power and their is  always evidence of tool craftsmenship  in the Mesolithic and Neolithic period.But what can't be refuted is the Sphinx has water erosion when the Pyramid of Giza  only shows wind erosion.

Now scientist are theorizing new concepts  about humans being far more advanced that  neolithic and Mesolithic period

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2009 at 01:19
Originally posted by AksumVanguard AksumVanguard wrote:

Have you heard of the temple of Gobekli Tepe (10,000bc or more)  and Catal Hoyuk (11,500bc)in Turkey. What does finding a tool in which used to build the Sphinx constitute. They didn't find any tools for stone hedge. Find the tools that built the sphinx, thats like a car salesman  giving a prospective buyer a test drive but then the customer says shows me
the engine schematics design and I'll buy it

It is rumored that Egyptians erected and pyramids,oblesk,mastaba without the use of levers or pulleys. They relied on man power and their is  always evidence of tool craftsmenship  in the Mesolithic and Neolithic period.But what can't be refuted is the Sphinx has water erosion when the Pyramid of Giza  only shows wind erosion.

 
 
 
1. Have you heard of Taipei 101, have you heard of the Akashi-Kaikyo Bridge, mentioning a list a few building 20,000 years away from a theory does nothing - Argumentum Verbosium
 
Stonehenge they did find weapons, bones, bodies, carbon C4 datable material, also no-one is claiming it's ludicrously old -Argumentum Verbosium
 
2. it is rumoured - ahem
 
The Sphinx shows no signs of water erosion, however the cliffs it was carved out of a few geologists have claimed show signs of water erosion, rainfall capable of eroding was abundant in the desert up to 6000 years ago, so this would push the date back 1500 years only to 5000bce. However if the cliffs were water eroded so would the tombs around the Sphinx be, constructed at the same time, they show no signs.
 
3.


Edited by Paul - 04-Feb-2009 at 01:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2009 at 09:21
Originally posted by Paul Paul wrote:

Originally posted by AksumVanguard AksumVanguard wrote:

Have you heard of the temple of Gobekli Tepe (10,000bc or more)  and Catal Hoyuk (11,500bc)in Turkey. What does finding a tool in which used to build the Sphinx constitute. They didn't find any tools for stone hedge. Find the tools that built the sphinx, thats like a car salesman  giving a prospective buyer a test drive but then the customer says shows me
the engine schematics design and I'll buy it

It is rumored that Egyptians erected and pyramids,oblesk,mastaba without the use of levers or pulleys. They relied on man power and their is  always evidence of tool craftsmenship  in the Mesolithic and Neolithic period.But what can't be refuted is the Sphinx has water erosion when the Pyramid of Giza  only shows wind erosion.

 
 
 
1. Have you heard of Taipei 101, have you heard of the Akashi-Kaikyo Bridge, mentioning a list a few building 20,000 years away from a theory does nothing - Argumentum Verbosium
 
Stonehenge they did find weapons, bones, bodies, carbon C4 datable material, also no-one is claiming it's ludicrously old -Argumentum Verbosium
 
2. it is rumoured - ahem
 
The Sphinx shows no signs of water erosion, however the cliffs it was carved out of a few geologists have claimed show signs of water erosion, rainfall capable of eroding was abundant in the desert up to 6000 years ago, so this would push the date back 1500 years only to 5000bce. However if the cliffs were water eroded so would the tombs around the Sphinx be, constructed at the same time, they show no signs.
 
3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWGwNC0WJE0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiLErTapJlM

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/2864/Truth_About_the_Sphinx___30_000__Years_Old/

http://www.pangeawv.com/pangeacollection.html

Reference to Egypt and Sumer civilization being older.
http://ancientneareast.tripod.com/Sumer.html


Now correlating the modern day theory that we cannot achieve mind boggling architectural accomplishments expected 20,000 years in the future  with astonishing breath taking ancient monuments in the past is not plausible because there is not a bar of expectation expected on our present progress of engineering and we have a an new acquired urge to reach for the stars and push the bar on our present day technology.

As for what we expect of our historic past is definatley walking a tightrope with a dumbell for  there are many links,traces, and markings missing in our past for us to hav  a full peripheal view of the history. So with the excavations found in Gobekli Tobe and Catal Hoyuk totally debunks our theory of the Mesolithic,neolithic,and even Paleothic periods.For one it will debunks, scholars theories therefore, there precious collegial books,the grant fundings, historic records,and there invitations to expose dining banquets is at risk.

Now I never said Stonehedge is that old, archealogist always suspected it to go back further than Neolithic period,around 8000 bce because it is suspected to take very long to construct and it was always annexed in construction.But whether or not they found tools at stone henge and finding tool at the The Sphinx is non-complascent, because doesn't the painter always takes his brush with him to place somewhere else. Doesn't the guild & mason always take his tools with him to build somewhere else.

"The Sphinx shows no signs of water erosion however the cliffs it was carved out of a few geologists have claimed show signs of water erosion, rainfall capable of eroding was abundant in the desert up to 6000 years ago,"

Well my friend,you said it yourself - the tombs around the sphinx don't show the same markers of erosion. The other anamolly is that no Pharoah actually stakes claim to the building of the Great Sphinx.  In around roman times most of the sphinx was buried in the ground.
You do know climateology right.So pushing the sphinx back 5000bce years doesn't add up because we are the monuments before it or the technolgy before it. What your saying is that all of a sudden the Neolithic man is miraceously creating monolithic makings.But I thought we were uncabale of this at this time. You have to conclude we are missing pieces,for your faltered theory and our current Moder Day understanding of History.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2009 at 10:11
stonehenge (#?) was contemporary with mycenaean which is only about 1400 bc, plus egyptian faience beads found there too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2009 at 12:03
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin Arthur-Robin wrote:

stonehenge (#?) was contemporary with mycenaean which is only about 1400 bc, plus egyptian faience beads found there too.


Right the reason I mention stonehenge because they are speculations saying that it was built in the Neolithic period. Either that or they were outlining the ground so it could later be mastered for future generations. It holds significant value for the druids it was kind of their religious epicenter.
They are Megaliths at Napta Playa (SUDAN)that have Archaeostronomy that predate the stonehenge by a thousand years. From the first cataract archaelogist cannot tell the difference between Nubia and Egypt in some instances. This helps to hint that Nubian has influenced Egypt immmensley. It is puzzling to find out why Menes the first king of Egypt  was able to construct the Aswan dam, when civilzations usually start lacking in technology.The common misconception is that Nubia and Egypt are rivals and are contested to each other not so. In Egyptian literature Kush actually is the Egyptian father that nutures the infancy of Upper Egypt so it can be a great Nation.

It is startling that  Egyptian traces have been  found in Stone Henge.

Myneceans are by one theory to have orginated in Anatolia . It suggestive to think that there was alot of civlization compostion in Anatolia prior to 10000bce with Gobekli temple and recent findings of Troy. From the Hittites to The Lydians they have always been a factor in in The Middle East and Europe. I'm interested in history in this region too they definately provide an abudance of missing links.
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