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Forum LockedSteppe Empires and their relation with Ch

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sasori Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2006 at 12:28
Originally posted by barbar barbar wrote:

To my best knowledge, none of them were Han ethnicity.

Zhou: Western barbarians
Qin: ChiDi (Red di)
Wei: Tuoba Xianpei
Sui: Tuoba Xianpei
Yuan: Mongol
Ching: Manchu

    
 
There is no Han Chinese concept during the Zhou and the Qin, not even until very recently. The Wei that was mentioned is actually Jin as Sima family usurped power from Wei and united the 3 kingdoms under Western Jin. They are what you may call the Han Chinese. The Sui are part Han part Xianbei(from the mother side) if you can call it that. In time, all Xianbei have been Sinicized or mixed with other minority groups(which later may become the Mongols) or disappear in history like the XiongNu.
 
Here is translation of Xiao Wendi from Northern Wei period in 490 AD from CHF forum by General Zhaoyun:
Translation:

The wearing of "hu" clothings was banned for all Xianbei. The speaking of Xianbei language was banned in the imperial court. It was encouraged to change the surname of the Xianbei to that of han. Mix marriage between han and Xianbei was encouraged. In 495 AD, it was decree that Xianbei and other northern languages were not to be spoken in the court, anyone who violate it would not be able to stay in court.. "to eliminate northern language, make Han language official. All above 30 years old are pardoned . For those below 30 years old, anyone who met the officials must speak the han langauge, if violated will be sacked form their position. Xiao Wendi also encouraged the wearing of the han clothing.

Translation:

Besides the language, Xiao Wendi also ordered the change of Xianbei surname to that of Han. The 'Tuoba" (a Xianbei surname), according to "the book of Wei", was a descendent from the Yellow Emperor. The Tuoba surname was changed to that of Yuan, in order to make their rule and staying in China deemed appropriate. All the aristocracy surnames had to be changed. This is to ensure the Xianbei's political position and the integration with the han family. In addition, mix marriage is encouraged between han and xianbei. With the han's blood being part of them, this would support Northern Wei's regime.
 
 
The Qing(Manchu) didn't unite China as they stormed the capital after being let in by a traitor during the Ming's weakest period. Liu Bang put more effort in founding the Han dynasty but he's not credited as uniting China. As of now, many Manchus have also been Sinicized and counted as Han Chinese although many others are counted as ethnic Manchu.
 
Han Chinese concept is like being an American concept multiply 10x older, be careful when using them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 11:58

I know the sinization process for some of these nomadic groups. Sinization itself shows the fact that they were originally not part of Sino group or culture. Moreover not all of the decendants of these groups sinizied, there are still groups with distinct culture and ethnicities from these groups who are not Han ethnicity.

Han Chinese concept is nothing like American concept no matter how many times you multiply. One is ethnic term, while the other is statehood. So you have Han Chinese, Hui Chinese etc, just as African American, Hispanic American etc.

Either make a history or become a history.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MING-LOYALIST Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 20:25
China is more then just Han ethnicity.
 
Also only Yuan and Qing were non-han the others were Han. The Wei is the Jin dynasty of Sima Yan not the Northern Wei which never united anything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jjack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2006 at 14:08

 


"Despite their nomadic backgrounds, without them China as we know it today would never exist."
---------------------

This kind of statement is base on nothing but assumption. How do you know that is the case? And how do you prove it?

 

"Mandarin or Putonghua was developed later in the Qing dynasty, this language is till today the official language of the PRC."
---------------------

'Mandarin', for whatever reason the westerners nowadays call this the official language of china as 'Mandarin', indeed, it has not much to do with the Manchu people. "Mandarin" is a local dialect of beijingers, where the majority of Beijing people of Ming period were coming from the south, the surrounding area of Beijing and mingle with the local people.

 

"The Mongols and Manchu’s united China”
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The Mongols conquer China eventually, is not for the purpose of united China, but for their land and material ambition, for a selfish purpose only, same as for the Manchu people take over China.


'Defined the borders of present day PRC, which is a subset of their
Respective empires'
---------------------

Foe the border issue, Mongols or Manchus, take the land is their land, also for their own beneficiaries only. Border is their border, their 'China's border, since China is their China.

In history, every dynasty changes in China, new border of China, size of the land the the new dynasty is able to control or rule, it depends on the military power of the new dynasty, and the ambition of the new dynasty.

For the contemporary history, actually, this kind land, military power, border, and ambition relationship, it apples to evry country and the whole world.

Manchu-Ching once ruled outer Mongolia, and a large area of northern Heilongjiang. When in the turns of last century, Manchu-Ching collapsed, Chinese people were so week at that time. New the china was in civil war, no regime or power was able to fight against the strong Russia, so Russia was manage to make outer Mongolia independent, and took a very big chunk of northern lands of Heilongjiang.

So, new China's new borer, is define by new China's own strength, in relatively to the out side power. But it is not define or set by Mongols dynasty or Manchu dynasty.



Edited by jjack - 08-Dec-2006 at 14:09
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MING-LOYALIST View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MING-LOYALIST Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2006 at 02:28

China's border has a lot to do with Qing dynasty, as for mongol or manchu uniting china, it may not have been their purpose initially but that was the result.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hulegu Han Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 16:36
Originally posted by MING-LOYALIST MING-LOYALIST wrote:

China's border has a lot to do with Qing dynasty, as for mongol or manchu uniting china, it may not have been their purpose initially but that was the result.

Yes, I agree with you on point that uniting the China wasn't there purpose initially. Even their conquest of China strenghtened China so that later Chinese own dynasties  had strong fundaments to establish their empire. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GR3Y077 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 03:09
The Toba Wei people were originally Turkic
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2007 at 14:52
Originally posted by barbar barbar wrote:

To my best knowledge, none of them were Han ethnicity.

Zhou: Western barbarians
Qin: ChiDi (Red di)
Wei: Tuoba Xianpei
Sui: Tuoba Xianpei
Yuan: Mongol
Ching: Manchu

    
 
the name Han is simply a generalization of all Chinese in Han dynasty time, since Zhou and Qin are both before Han, none of them should be considered as "barbarians". there is no specific origin of han Chinese, even if there is, you can't find any pure Han chinese.
 
I notice something interesting in Shi Ji, in the chapter on Liu Bang, the founder of Han Dynasty, there is a short description of his appearance that mentioned he have huge nose and that is quiet uncommon for Chinese at the time. there is a good chance he might belong to a  ethnic group ouside Chin empire.
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