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Carpathian Wolf View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Star and Crescent
    Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 23:18
So I was watching Kingdom of Heaven and I noticed the Muslims used a moon crescent on their banners. Is that accurate? I've heard several stories of how this became to be a symbol of Islam.
 
1. The Star and Crescent was actually a symbol in Constantinople and after the Ottoman Turks took it over, their nobles began wearing it and eventually it spread. This is possible because Saudi Arabia for example the most traditional Muslim country IMHO doesn't use the symbol.
 
2. It was the symbol of the Tengrists, again Turkish origin. But IIRC the Mongols were Tengrists too and I don't recall this symbol being popular with them either.
 
3. It's a symbol of the Moon god(s) of pre Islamic pagan people adopted into Islam.
 
4. It could be a purely Islamic symbol but every muslim I have spoken to has not known to give me an answer to its origins.
 
 
 
Also perhaps there are two symbols involved? A crescent symbol and then a star and crescent symbol?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eumenes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 23:59
I was under the impression it came from the Sassanids, and before them, ancient Mesopotamian civilizations. I know I've seen the star and crescent on some pre Islamic seals from the region.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 00:56
The entire film is fictitious anyway so yes, this is not accurate.
 
Saladin's symbol was the two headed spread eagle which he took from the the Turks who brought it with them when they came to the middle east. Arabs of Mecca had the Hawk as their symbol and their main battle standard was call Al-uqab or the hawk. Since depiction of live things is forbidden, the prophet and both first caliphs of the Rashidun and Ummayyads had plain standards, the Ummayyads white and Black for the rashidun.
 
The Abbasids returned to black, and sometimes green but still depiction of animals was non existant till the end of their days however their military standards had eagles, hawks, lions and Pegasus. The first people to bring the crescent were the Ottomans since they were a later addition to the Turks of Anatolia and it was linked to their former pagan religions.
 
The mughals, the Safavids and the central asian states all didn't have the crescent as their symbol, it was the lion and the tiger and the eagle but since the Ottomans were most connected to europe it became representing of Islam.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 08:19
Correction, the Mughals did have the cresent as their flag, on which the present Pakistani flag is based.
 
 
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 12:21
Hi guys a thread "Sasanid Crowns (Star & Crescent)" discusses this question

and it was raised again in this thread "Crescent and the Star, how did they become the symbols of Islam?".

I am convinced its Babylonian when the crescent and star is combined and then became more regional.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 15:58
But One thing is certain, Arabs didn't use that symbol and it didn't come from them. Saladin used the double headed eagle.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 16:28
I know, and they still don't.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 16:32
Originally posted by Sparten

I know, and they still don't.

Algeria and Tunisia use those symbols on their flags. The question is whether these states can be considered Arabic?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2008 at 02:22
Certainly it was the Ottoman Khalifa that popularised it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2008 at 10:17
Originally posted by Leonidas


Hi guys a thread "[COLOR="#0000ff">Sasanid Crowns (Star & Crescent)[/COLOR">" discusses this questionand it was raised again in this thread "[COLOR="#0000ff">Crescent and the Star, how did they become the symbols of Islam?[/COLOR">". I am convinced its Babylonian when the crescent and star is combined and then became more regional.


here is an even older topic
http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=1542
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2008 at 18:02
So, what is clear is that this so called Islamic symbol is actually paganic, which must be unacceptable to the Islamic world. The Islamic conferance should do something about that. Removing the crescent from their flag would be a good start.
 
Don't you think so?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2008 at 18:20
Well we had discuss that moon-star issue about two years ago. (But i couldnt found the topic).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2008 at 18:34
Originally posted by The Hidden Face

So, what is clear is that this so called Islamic symbol is actually paganic, which must be unacceptable to the Islamic world. The Islamic conferance should do something about that. Removing the crescent from their flag would be a good start.
 

Don't you think so?



i think so too.

as i mentioned before i always thought of the crescent on top of the minaret as a symbol for the Hilal of the Holy month of Ramadan and how special that month and also how important the moon is for islamic calender.

i dont think many muslims know that this symbol came to islam via Turks who continued using it after they became muslims.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2008 at 20:00
Whats wrong with it.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2008 at 04:56
Well if I were a follower of Mohamed i certainly wouldn't want a pagan symbol atop my place of worship or on my national flag. But there are levels of traditionality to the religion from the ones who think the hijab is only an option to the ones that follow the Koran strictly and allow no instrument or dancing. (IIRC) Some might just think it isn't worth the trouble of changing anything.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2008 at 06:35
I am a muslim or a "follower of Mohammad". And I have absolutly no trouble with the symbol.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Efraz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2008 at 13:23
Well "islamic" nations aren't only "followers of mohammad" they have cultural pasts aside from that of Arabic. Some of them have their own national symbols. You may call them paganic but they are national too. They are embraced by these nations for thousands of years.

Like this symbol. Like Turks, Iranians' other symbols... they have many symbols may be regarded as "paganic" and we have no problem with.

Being a "follower of Mohammad" doesn't make you an Arab.

And to the star and crescent. Let me give a couple of symbolic infos.

Crescent: It's the symbol of moon goddeses which are a connected with mother goddeses and fertility deities. Which is also the symbol of the cult of women. In Greek, Hittitian and Mesopotamian Mythologies.

Star: It's also a symbol for a specific type of goddesses. Ishtar for example. Which is the very equivalent of Aphrodite and all love and war goddesses. Ishtar literally means "star"

I think "Crescent and Star" has a pagan past which is connected to the matriarchal culture. Which is a fine thing :)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Efraz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2008 at 13:29
BTW I have to correct myself here.

All religions have a paganic past. These religions did not come from outer space, of course they all have connections with elder beliefs.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2008 at 15:15
Originally posted by Efraz

BTW I have to correct myself here.

All religions have a paganic past. These religions did not come from outer space, of course they all have connections with elder beliefs.
This is very true. You can find most symbols going further back than their current use with hints in their meaning still carrying on even if they do change over time. The moon carrys on with the Virgin Mary for instance in some iconograhy (AFAIK latin catholic). though instead of being on her head, its on her feet.

The Crescent and Star is quite interesting. I have read on the below source that it meant different things depending on which way the moon was facing in the symbol and this connects back to the dual nature of Ishtar/Astarte/Inanna (Shaushga ?). I used the same n one my two old posts (in the above  links ) but i would like to cross reference it


In its role as the goddess of war and fertility it is associated with the Morning star. In its role as the divinity of sexual love it is associated with the Evening star.

www.symbols.com

from a better part of that website that goes into more detail

It was only when humans realized that the Morning star and the Evening star were the same planet that the pentagon, 28:23, and the four-year period could be linked to 41a:7.
    The Akkadians were the first to realize this. Inanna, the Sumerian queen of the heavens and the daughter of the moon for the Semitic Akkadians became the contradictory Ischtar. Still the queen of the heavens, Ischtar (Astarte) was the holy virgin but also "she who accomodates men", the goddess of battle and war, but also the goddess of beauty, peace and sex.
    Three were the highest divinities in the EuphratesTigris region. Their symbols can be seen in almost every ancient mythological representation. They are 25:16, the sun god; 20:7, the moon god; and 26:46, Inanna, Ischtar, Astarte.


www.symbols.com
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2008 at 19:35
"I am a muslim or a "follower of Mohammad". And I have absolutly no trouble with the symbol. "

And that's perfectly fine with me. :)
 
"Well "islamic" nations aren't only "followers of mohammad" they have cultural pasts aside from that of Arabic. Some of them have their own national symbols. You may call them paganic but they are national too. They are embraced by these nations for thousands of years."
 
I know but I generally got the impression it was frowned upon at least by the traditionalists.
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