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Poll Question: Who do you think was/are the most highly trained special forces units?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
2 [3.70%]
25 [46.30%]
15 [27.78%]
3 [5.56%]
9 [16.67%]
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YohjiArmstrong View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote YohjiArmstrong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2007 at 17:20
On the subject of special forces I think its impossible to judge. No competition, no survey can prove who's best because I don't think anyone is best.

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Anyone with enough men and finance could have pulled off 2003 or 1991.


I disagree because of the phrase "men and finance". Of course anyone with enough "men and finance" could do anything. With enough "men and finance" I could beat the US Army. It would just have to be a lot of "men and finance". The Iraqi army in 1991 was the best in the M.E. (Ones tempted to put Iranians on a joint pedestal but I'm not sure how they would have reacted to fighting on enemy territory). I doubt most 3rd world nations could have beaten it (even if we generously allow that 3rd world nation to somehow transport itself across the globe). It would have taken a 1st world army to pull of the job without ending up in a stalemate. The real difference is that no one 1st world army has as much "men and finance" as the Americans- and would have suffered more accordingly. For instance the French and British forces at the time were what, 200,000? Against 1 million they would have won but they would have taken a lot more casualties than the Americans did. The point is that the Americans not only had enough "men and finance" to pull off the job but also to do it with the least possible casualties.

Originally posted by TranHungDao TranHungDao wrote:

If you haven't noticed, they just got their tails handed to them by Hezbollah's new guerilla tactics.


These being the same Hezbollah who have admitted they were 5 days from defeat? Hezbollah certainly bruised Israel's nose and taught them not to be so cocky. But the main Israeli land based objectives were achieved. The Israeli defeat was, more than anything, a public relations defeat. That said, Hezbollah were partly responsible for the PR work. I think I'd hand them the victory- just not for their fighting.

Nor are Hezbollah's tactics really those of guerillas, rather more those of light infantry. Hezbollah actually did try to defeat Israel's attacks rather than just trying to kill their men and make their life difficult. Bunkers for instance were fairly common.



Edited by YohjiArmstrong - 02-Sep-2007 at 17:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheARRGH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2007 at 22:19
I sort of wonder...all the choices made so far seem to be from the mediterranean area, europe, australia, or the US. Anyone know whether there are immensely elite forces anywhere else? presumably there's some latin american, african, or asian special forces unit that qualifies as "very good".

...or is that just kind of a vain hope?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Laelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2007 at 12:40

Non European countries typically don't have the expeditionary needs to necessitate Special ops troops

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheARRGH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2007 at 12:53
So, they tend to not really require a special unit because they don't end up having a lot of wars or disputes that require that particular type of soldier?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Laelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2007 at 14:39
Pretty much, China for instance didn't develop is a Special Forces type unit until teh 1980s but I get the impression that they're more or less light infrantry trained with a heavy emphasis of irregular warfare than a true special operations force.  To be sure many nations have Special ops troops but not all have the operational experience of the G8 countries. 
But here check this article out
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheARRGH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2007 at 15:07
Cool! I also found that, apparently, the AFEUR of colombia, who specialize in urban counterterrorism, are considered a very top notch unit, due to constant training and continual exposure to live operations.

...Not terribly surprising, when I think about it, but you never really hear about them. But, to be honest, you rarely hear about special forced of anywhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrupaci%C3%B3n_de_Fuerzas_Especiales_Antiterroristas_Urbanas

And yes, I do know that wikipedia can be an unreliable source, but since the page has no "the factual accuracy of this page is disputed" tag, I figure it's probably reasonably accurate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2007 at 02:05
Originally posted by Laelius Laelius wrote:

Pretty much, China for instance didn't develop is a Special Forces type unit until teh 1980s but I get the impression that they're more or less light infrantry trained with a heavy emphasis of irregular warfare than a true special operations force.  To be sure many nations have Special ops troops but not all have the operational experience of the G8 countries. 
But here check this article out
 
 
Ah yes. Glad that Special forces are not limited to Western civilization. Their origin is 4th Special Squadron from Korean War, and were responsible for halting waves of North Koreans in the very Eastern region of Korea. They were not super soliders like DELTA and SEAL, but they worked effectively enough to change the tide of war. The survivors of 4th Squad. were placed in the Special Force unit of South Korea, and the survivors shared the experience and skills to well-trained elite Koreans, and hence the 707th Special Mission Unit is formed. For future ref., all the special forces known in Korea has 7 as the first digit in the 3 digit number.
 
Due to the lack of intense war experience, 707th is not in the same level as SAS, DELTA, and such. They have been depolyed to patrol the Yellow Sea and East Sea (aka Sea of Japan), and rumored to have been deployed in Indonesia, but it's merely a rumor.
 
There's a rumor about the top elite special force that could rival other elite special forces. Rumored to be heavily financed and supported by foreign special forces, the 713th Special Mission Unit (aka Silent Watcher). Consisting about 20 elites, they are often rumored to have penetrated the North Korean defense and alert the Americans that North Korea will start nuclear development prior to when Bush added North Korea to be axis of evil


Edited by pekau - 02-Oct-2007 at 09:08
     
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TranHungDao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 22:50
Originally posted by YohjiArmstrong YohjiArmstrong wrote:

These being the same Hezbollah who have admitted they were 5 days from defeat?

Source?  Please!  I find it very hard to believe Hezbollah would openly admit to this!  Confused

With all due respect, you need to stop smoking what ever it is you're smoking b'coz it's going to your head.  "defeat"?  Please.  You mispoke.  You mean:  "Temporary defeat".  No matter what, Hezbollah would have and is coming back with a vengence.  This is why the Israelis high-tailed it outta Dodge, with tail between leg.  They knew they could stay and drop more & more phosphorous bombs to kill more Lebanese children than Hezbollah soldiers, and perhaps win in another 2 or 3 months, but they could never occupy Lebanon like they once did. 

Why?  Because the Committee of Eternally Pissed-Off Ayatollahs in Iran will make sure Hezbollah comes back with a vengence--that's why!  It was none other than the Iranians who armed and trained Hezbollah into the crack fighting force they had become during the intervening years between the time Israel pulled out and August 2006, when Israel reinvaded.

Originally posted by YohjiArmstrong YohjiArmstrong wrote:

Hezbollah certainly bruised Israel's nose and taught them not to be so cocky.

Agreed.

Originally posted by YohjiArmstrong YohjiArmstrong wrote:

But the main Israeli land based objectives were achieved. The Israeli defeat was, more than anything, a public relations defeat. That said, Hezbollah were partly responsible for the PR work. I think I'd hand them the victory- just not for their fighting.

These being the same Israelis who thought it would be a 3 to 4 day long cake-walk like it was in past invasions of Lebanon?

Originally posted by YohjiArmstrong YohjiArmstrong wrote:

Nor are Hezbollah's tactics really those of guerillas, rather more those of light infantry.

Hardly, for that's exactly what they were doing:  Urban guerilla warefare.  There was no way they could go up against a mechanized force with air support, so they fought them in towns and cities.

Originally posted by YohjiArmstrong YohjiArmstrong wrote:

Hezbollah actually did try to defeat Israel's attacks rather than just trying to kill their men and make their life difficult. Bunkers for instance were fairly common.

You mean to say Hezbollah had fighter pilots too?  No way, for the most part they went assymetrical.  Why?  They had too.  Did they use infrantry tactics?  Sure.  Commando tactics?   Sure.  But the overall strategy was to fight in away that denied the Israelis their conventional and technological advantages.

BTW, you also forgot that Hezbollah had a vast underground network of tunnels between bunkers, urban buildings, and so on.  Like I said, Hezbollah went assymetrical as they had planned all along.

How is what Hezbollah did so different than what the Iraqi insurgents are doing in Iraq.  From time to time, they do try to fight US troops head on, albeit more in the first two years of the US's occupation of Iraq.  Indeed, it was the Iranians who taught Hezbollah how to make IED's which the Iraqis now use ad nauseum Dead.  Indeed, ad rectum.  Confused









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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TranHungDao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 22:53
BTW, I came across a thread on Hezbollah's defeat of the IDF in 2006 here somewhere on AllEmpires forum.  I believe it was a thread started by one of the mods.  For the life of me, I can't locate it anymore.   Can someone please link that thread here for me.  Much thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChrisBoonzaier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2008 at 23:41
What does the Foreign Legion have to do with SF??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChrisBoonzaier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2008 at 23:42
Sorry, the above was related to a post on page 1.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2008 at 00:05
Originally posted by ChrisBoonzaier ChrisBoonzaier wrote:

What does the Foreign Legion have to do with SF??
 
The Foreign Legion's historic role as part of the regular French army has changed in recent decades due to the nature of modern military operations.  While they still constitute a conventional capability in small unit operations, they also have been integrated into Spec Ops through amphibious commando, high altitude airborne and "ranger" type training.
 
As France has reduced the profile of universal conscription, and gone to a more professional military, the Legion Etrangere fits in with the modern military establishment.  France has had a legal and constitutional issue with foreign deployments, although she still has substantial foreign interests, particularly in Africa.  The Legion gives the French army flexibility in this regard.  Both conventionally, and in terms of "deniable" special operations. 
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 07-Jan-2008 at 00:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChrisBoonzaier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2008 at 00:24
Thanks for the lesson.

I was five years in the Legion, I must have missed something.

I served in desrt storm (Operation Daguet), Operation Baumier, operation Epervier and in Bosnia. I think I can say that the Legions role is largely part of the rapid reaction force. The GCP (and only the GCP) of the REP are anywhere near the SF thing.

I think the Legion fits more in line with the Rangers or British Royal marines... largely a commando trained elite infantry. No cloak and dagger stuff.

The French have enough shadowy units to fill the SF and super sensitive roles.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2008 at 02:00
I don't think you missed anything.  If you were in Desert Storm, that was 17 years ago.  Things have changed, that's all.
 
AFAIK, 2 REP has been categorized as a Spec Ops unit with various missions assigned to the component companies.  It isn't like the entire LE is a commando brigade.  Somewhere on the Web (and I can't say where), I saw this LE soldier emerging from a body of water looking like a heavily armed frog man.  I am sure the navy has its own commandos, but the LE at least has been incorporated into that role.
 
What do you hear from other LE veterans?
 
  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChrisBoonzaier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2008 at 08:37
Hi,

Compagnies are specialised in various regiments, Amphibious, Mountain etc, most guys do one of the commando schools. The REP is of course para....

But special forces?

Like I said, small groups within.

The CRAP or GCP of the REP, Engineers have recon/Destructeur sub units... but these are all tiny units within the whole.

The REP itself is not SF, it is simply a Parachute regiment within the FAR. Some of the RPIMA boys are more schooled in the dark arts.

The unit that had some tie with the rainbow warrioir thing disapeared into the 11eme Choc (Which I think no longer exists).

2eme REI had its compagnies split into Mountain, Combat de Nuit/Commando, Amphibious, Airmobile and is a key regt iin the rapid action force. Also has a small recon element...  but that is NOT special forces.

I left 13 years ago, things have changed... but there has been no major change to make all SF.

SAS, SBS, Selous Scouts, GCP etc are Special Forces... The Legion (Minus GCP), Rangers, Rhodesian Light infantry, Royal marines are hard hitting componants of rapid reaction type forces.

The legion has never encouraged Rambo style hotshots... try and be the clever one or the super commando and you will get a slap on the ear and get told to rejoin the pack. The very style of the legion (Spartan and as part of the pack) is not the breeding ground for the individual initiative that SF seeks.

Best
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2008 at 16:48
Originally posted by ChrisBoonzaier ChrisBoonzaier wrote:

Hi,

Compagnies are specialised in various regiments, Amphibious, Mountain etc, most guys do one of the commando schools. The REP is of course para....

But special forces?

Like I said, small groups within.

The CRAP or GCP of the REP, Engineers have recon/Destructeur sub units... but these are all tiny units within the whole.

The REP itself is not SF, it is simply a Parachute regiment within the FAR. Some of the RPIMA boys are more schooled in the dark arts.

The unit that had some tie with the rainbow warrioir thing disapeared into the 11eme Choc (Which I think no longer exists).

2eme REI had its compagnies split into Mountain, Combat de Nuit/Commando, Amphibious, Airmobile and is a key regt iin the rapid action force. Also has a small recon element...  but that is NOT special forces.

I left 13 years ago, things have changed... but there has been no major change to make all SF.

SAS, SBS, Selous Scouts, GCP etc are Special Forces... The Legion (Minus GCP), Rangers, Rhodesian Light infantry, Royal marines are hard hitting componants of rapid reaction type forces.

The legion has never encouraged Rambo style hotshots... try and be the clever one or the super commando and you will get a slap on the ear and get told to rejoin the pack. The very style of the legion (Spartan and as part of the pack) is not the breeding ground for the individual initiative that SF seeks.

Best
Chris
 
Good info.  Thanks.  I suppose we do need to differentiate between small unit specialists, visible SF and the SF "ghost units" that are so deep in that nobody knows they exist.
 
US army rangers are organized for up to battalion size deployments.  75th Regiment; two battalions at this time I think, but the army has been augmented recently.  The natures of Iraq and Afghanistan are rewriting the manuals on small unit and SF warfare, and differences have become somewhat blurred.
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 07-Jan-2008 at 16:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shawshank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2008 at 02:20
Hi, In my opinion it's pretty obvious that if you're the one who creates something of such ingenious, then of course you will be the best at it. The British SAS/SBS/SFG/Pathfinders are the best you can get. The Aussie counterparts of the SAS are an extremely capable force as we trained them (and still train frequently to this day) first, fore mostly.

When you get up close to a Spetsnaz/GRU combatant you outta run.

And the Yanks aren't to shabby either, they are just too numerical in their selection.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hard Chargin Hotel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2008 at 01:14
Marine Coprs DASR(Direct Action Special Reconaissance) Operatives are in my oppinion the best. These operators who were formerly Force Recon Marines go through training while not as mentally tough is equally as tough physicaly if not more than SEAL training. before Marines can sign up they have to have been in the Corps for a few years as well have served in combat or on deployment(which for a Marine basically means combat). So basically they are molding elite commandos into even more elite special operators. On the other hand SEALs are fresh out of the Navy never have experiencing ground combat prior to joining. So when you look at it Marine DASR Operators are the most experienced as well as most professionally trained soldiers in the world possibly. I just didn't know why no one had brought them up yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonathan4290 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2008 at 17:15
No one mentioned JTF-2? They're so good that nobody even knows what they do or what they've accomplished :P They did recieve a unit citation from the Americans in Afghanistan though, only the second Canadian unit in history to do so.
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