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Forum LockedSouth Albania/Northern Epirus

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strategos View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: South Albania/Northern Epirus
    Posted: 04-Aug-2005 at 13:43
I have read that this area, call it what it must, should be an autonomous region, yet I believe it is under full control of Albanian government? What happend that its not autonamous anymore?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2005 at 14:58
why should it be autonomous if the vast majority of the people there consider themselves Albanian?

Edited by vulkan02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2005 at 15:04

It has been given and promised to us Greeks by the Great Powers and Albanian Leaders over and over again only to be taken away and added to the Albanian State for no Historical reason. Greek Armies have librated this region atleast twice in the 20th Century again only to watch the region be handed over to the Albanian Occupiers once the wars ended.

It was garenteed in the Corfu protocal

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2005 at 15:05
Bah, albanian? I have an albanian friend who says the common language of the south is greek and albanian with people referring themselves as greek or greek albanian.. These are not ethnic albanians.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2005 at 16:25
Greek is a common language in northern Epirus. But not because there are tons of greeks, but because of the same reason Italian is a common language in northern Albania, cnearest destination. I come from northern Epirus, Sarande to be exact. The people there are certainly ethnic Albanians and not Greeks, even the Himariots are declared as Albs during their immigration to Italy during the 17th century. The Greek minority of northern Epirus was, by the time of Hoxha's death, realistically around 100,000 to 120,000. I know a northern Epiriot at the Dodona forum who would confirm this. Relations between Albs and greeks there are generally mild, though few have actually intermarried. I myself have a Greek grandmother. Most of the Albanized Greeks there still retain greek last names. For instance my grandmothers was Pappa, a comon Epirotic Greek last name. the myth that the Albaians there are ethnic Greeks was perpetrated by the Orthodox church. Anyone who was orthodox was taken as Greek. In fact, the speaking of the Alb language was so heavy there that the Orthdox church moved to illegalize it and stop its teaching in school.

As for the Corfu protocol. You have to realize we never actually signed the deal. it was signed by a foreign administerd King, Wied, during a time when we were revolting. On top of this, it was written by Pro-Hellenes.

As for the northern Epirus topic? I find it comical that it is discussed as such a big thing mainly by greek diaspora. None whom I have met from northern Epirus are people making such claims that people there are Greeks and not Albs.

Your friend? I see a very scientific research coming from him. No albs there do not consider themselves Greek Albanian, only those with dreams of leaving to Greece or those who are getting paychecks from the greek gov't to do so...

Greeks in northern Epirus are a minority. Yes Albs are the majority but its not just them. There are plenty of vlachs who today consider themselves Albanians or simply vlachs as a majority, with a Greek-Vlach and Romanian-Vlach political groups that do so for purely economical purposes. The Albanians of northern Epirus all made their way there from northern Albania in the 13th century when they began to populate and control it. They are part of the Tosk Albanian group. Tosk is nothing more then a difference of dialect. To say we are not ethnically Albanian makes little sense. Especially considering that Himariots themselves speak old dialects of Albanian in their homes, have Albanian traditions, and were recognized as so in the past centuries... I have the Italian records if you want to see them...

Go speak to Epirotes, see what they think of the issue. You will find that its not too different from Albs.

Edited by Iskender Bey ALBO
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2005 at 17:09
Whatever they are, my opinion is that Greece should not be making any claims for annexing any nearby land, as we are satisfied with what we have and we do not need any more.
We have enough internal problems to take care of, and any newly introduced population would just throw today's society off balance.
Furthermore, we are not an expansive nation, although there have been certain instances when we attempted to do so but bitterly discovered that we just do not want to fight, when it comes to conquest.
Defense is a totally different subject though (directed to anyone who might take our unwillingness to conquer as a sign of weakness)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2005 at 18:37
Quote As for the Corfu protocol. You have to realize we never actually signed the deal. it was signed by a foreign administerd King, Wied, during a time when we were revolting. On top of this, it was written by Pro-Hellenes.


I need you to clarify this one.
Revolting??
Who was revolting and for what reason exactly were they revolting???

Maybe my knowledge of the area's history is wrong (not likely) but the way I know it.
On Feb 1914 the Epirots revolted due to the previously signed 1913 'Protocol of Florence' that annexed them to Albania and demanded to be annexed to Hellas, which is what they actually accomplished in May of the same year with the 'Protocol of Kerkyra'. That is how things remained untill Italy understood the area's significance and invaded in Oct 1915.
The rest is history....
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2005 at 18:39
Quote Who was revolting and for what reason exactly were they revolting???


We were revolting against our new "leader", Wied. He was not picked by us. The powers just decided to give him power over Albania. So we acted out. similarly, we also acted out against King Zogu... Who was a puppet of Italy...

Quote On Feb 1914 the Epirots revolted due to the previously signed 1913 'Protocol of Florence' that annexed them to Albania and demanded to be annexed to Hellas, which is what they actually accomplished in May of the same year with the 'Protocol of Kerkyra'. That is how things remained untill Italy understood the area's significance and invaded in Oct 1915.
The rest is history....


No thats about right...

But at the time, Albania had little to no backers for the creation of our state. Most, including the ottomans, were more then willing to partition these lands to anyone of the Christian balkanites. France, Germany and even Britian were ready to give off northern Albania to montenegro, who started creating propaganda on how Albs there were Serbs who were Albanized, and similarly with the Albs of northern Epirus. Hell they helped the weakling Montenegrin soldiers when they failed to take Ulcin from Albanian peasents... (though after the powers came to help, the city fell)



Edited by Iskender Bey ALBO
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2005 at 19:14
But we are talking about Epiros aren't we??

Anyway, the revolt of the Epirots I mention, began as I said in Feb 1914, but the powers didn't appoint Weid untill March of the same year and  the Albanians didn't revolt against him untill the 23rd of May 1914, when he demanded that the Hellinic troops in Epirus leave.
So these are obviously two totally different events.




Edited by Phallanx
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2005 at 19:51
Quote So these are obviously two totally different events.


Just pointing out that at the time, Albania was in a time of disarray. This would not change until Hoxha took over. Also, some Orthodox Albs in northern Epirus then sided with Greeks for fear that Albania would have become a muslim state. Same happened with a small % of Catholic Albs in the north.

If one wants a story as to how Greeks are manufactured in northern Epirus, here is a personal story.

One day, in my vacation house in Vlore. I get a knock on my door and it turns out that its a Orthodox priest. He starts to speak what was possibly the worst Alb I ever heard before I stop and tell him I speak english, the guy gave a sigh like no other . He then asked to talk to me for a while. After getting to "know me", he gives me the offer, if I change my name from Ted Pilkati to Theodoros Piklotis I would get 200 EU a month from the Orthodox Church(Im already orthodox and my family was already part of the church, usually there is a need for a baptism but I could skip that), Im assuming this money is coming from the Greek public, unless it comes from private investors. To me this was outrages. But now, imagine an Alb farmer who can barely make that much in that time, the offer seems rather tempting. Its not church the Orthodoxy making such offers...

Edited by Iskender Bey ALBO
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2005 at 02:44
If this story is a true one (I do not deny it but I do find it a bit "hmmm"), then I assure you that these funds do not come from the Greek public, as the Greek Orthodox church is not financed by the Greek public. They have their own resources, as they are owners of large amounts of land, properties and other investments.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2005 at 02:50
Does greece get along with a single one of its neighbors?  They seem to claim everything from everyone.  Why? To have lines on a map look more appealing to you?
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2005 at 02:54
It is not Greece who has these ideas, Tobodai. It's just the wishful thinking of a handful of people, something like 2-3%.
But then again, there are nationalists everywhere, aren't they?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2005 at 11:15
Well the story is suspicious to put it politely. If this took place some decades ago I'd probably believe it but under the current circumstances sorry Isk, no offence but I just can't buy it.

The history of the region is recorded.
The repression of the minority's culture and language during King Zog with an escalation of these events in 1933-34 and the later events during Hoxha's reign where we saw, churches burned down Hellinic books banned, schools closed are very well known.

There are more than a few UN and Human Rights Resolutions that condemn the persecution seen even today. Let me just remind you of the latest elections were threats at gun point and grenades at election centers were recorded, for one and only reason, so that the minority's party wouldn't be elected.

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Greek Minority in Albania: European Parliament Called Tirana to Respect Minority Rights

2005-04-15 | The European Parliament plenary session adopted a resolution on the reconstruction of Western Balkans underlining the fact that the region of Western Balkans is a high priority for the European Union.
--------------
Greeks in Albania: Albania is under Supervision regarding the Ethnic Greek Minority Rights
2004-11-30 | There will be no European prospect for Albania if the country does not learn to respect and support minority rights. The above is mentioned in a European Commission response to the question...

http://www.unpo.org/news_detail.php?arg=23&par=1339


Tobodai

You must have misunderstood, no one is claiming any land and of course we do respect the border lines. We are talking about a problematic area where supression and persecution of minorities is an everyday norm.
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2005 at 12:27
Quote If this story is a true one (I do not deny it but I do find it a bit "hmmm"), then I assure you that these funds do not come from the Greek public, as the Greek Orthodox church is not financed by the Greek public. They have their own resources, as they are owners of large amounts of land, properties and other investments.


Phallanx, I put nothing of thiis on the public, I just said that if this comes but entirely on the church. Its them who are making people in Albania scared. I have seen papers distributed with them claiming as far up as the Shkumbini. You dont have to come to Albania to witness this event. Its happening with Albs in Greece itself, they are now getting Greek names, baptisms and signing Vorior Epirote paper. This is also similar with Vlachs. The Orthodox church in ALbania has far more freedom due to the fact that the country is **** and completely unsupervised. These events go on right under the nose of the public. For instance, Gjirokaster. A shop there, two years ago was entirely Alb signs and everything, a year later, not only did this guy refuse to speak Alb allowed but had changed all his signs into Greek. I put the balme entirely on my people, but Im have to tell you. it does occur. That 200 EU a month is money that is supposed to go to Vorio Epirotes. Anyone who in Albania signs such papers, gets that.

Also, you do realise UNPO simply takes this info from the people who claim them.

Menippos, about the money thing. I was just saying is that does the Greek populace know that tax money is being spent on such things. On top of this, the endless amount of churches that are being built around Albania simply to replace the old demolished ones, even if none on the community are Orthodox.

Edited by Iskender Bey ALBO
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2005 at 15:58
Firstly I never said what you quoted but ok it's an obvious mistake.

Yes there are many Albanians that convert to Christianity here in Hellas and  by being baptized they do obtain a Christian name.(its customary)
But no one forces them nor are they paid to do so. Unless you mean that  the ones that prove they're from Epirus find a better job and are accepted in their community easier that others that aren't.

Again I find it if not impossible, very hard for the Orthodox church in Albania to have the power to terrorize any ammount of population and make them make claims in favor of Hellas and the Hellinic minority.
As I mentioned above, it has been proven in various occasions that the minority is deprived from fundamental rights. The above accounts aren't by someone that just said so, these are all well documented events that you should have known of.
Here is an example:

TWO ETHNIC GREEKS WERE INJURED IN A HAND GRENADE ATTACK IN HIMARA Himara, 21 March 2001 (16:22 UTC+2)

Two ethnic Greeks were injured in a hand grenade attack targeting a Greek coffee-shop in Himara, Albania last Sunday night.

One of the two brothers, who own the coffee-shop, was injured as well as an ethnic Greek customer and an Albanian. The last two were seriously injured. The attack was launched after a brawl between the perpetrator, who is Albanian, and ethnic Greeks living in the region.

The Himara Residents Association mentions, in a statement issued on the occasion of the imminent population census and parliamentary elections in Albania, that the Albanian government has launched a terror campaign against the ethnic Greek minority and calls on the Greek government to demand from the Albanian authorities to protect the ethnic Greeks in the region as a token of appreciation for the contribution of the Greek state in the Albanian state reconstruction efforts.

Source:
Macedonian press agency


That example of the shop in Gyrokastro must be a joke.
You can't be seriously blaming the Orthodox Church because someone changed the signs on his store
What did you expect him to do, have you ever looked up the ammount of tourist or exactly how many Hellinic companies have invested in Albania. I'd call it a damn smart buisness move, he's advertizing his goods in the best possible way. In the native language of the 'money holders'.
It's similar to what is happening in Hellas. In every city, village, island you'll find  signs in english and everyone knows english.
Who should we blame??

I've been to Bulgaria a couple of times, which is a good example.
Sadanski has 3 'bouzoukia' (all night dance 'clubs' with Hellinic music).
Are they also terrorized by the Orthodox church so we can make claims or have they also made a good buisness move?
Here's a hint, by opening such 'clubs' they've actually taken half of the 'customers' from nearby Hellinic cities, Seres to be exact, has literally been going downhill for a couple of years now.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2005 at 16:50
this topic should have never been started..
im puzzled by Phallanx claims that Hellenic companies are investing into Albanian tourism... this simply doesn't make sense ... Greece sees Albania as a competitor in this field so why would it help it "steal" more of its tourists?

An incident happned 3 years ago when i went there that Greece took a nasty punitive measure against Albanian immigrants who work hard there. During the summer when they went back to visit their families they weren't allowed to enter Greece and were stuck in traffic for one straight week! This was all due to a "computer malfunction" something that was too hard to swallow for many people. I believe 3 women had failed baby delievers and many more others got sick from going to relieve themselves in the bushes and terrain nearby.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2005 at 16:55

My question was: What happend to the autonomy of the region? This was a simple question, but a little side tracking discussion is not bad..

http://theforgotten.org/intro.html
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2005 at 17:10
it was never autonomous ever since Albania was created.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2005 at 20:28
I never said companies are investing in Albania's tourism. I said :

"have you ever looked up the ammount of tourist or exactly how many Hellinic companies have invested in Albania."

Meaning that there is a large amount of Hellines arriving in that area, I personally know three people that have invested in land and of course there is an obvious Hellinic population going in and out some actually live there due to their investments.

I'm not really familiar to the exact event you mention, but there was an event I remember where we had a restriction in 'traffic' and all that had an  expired visa weren't allowed to return.
I'm sure you know that from the approx 800.000 if not more Albanians in Hellas, 99.5% entered ilegally and demand to be accepted.
Which could be ok if the amount wasn't so large. If you look at the numbers, a 10% of the total population is immigrants, when other more economically developed countries like Germany, Britain, France with a much larger population have no more than 5%.

Anyway, there was an autonomous Epirus, one day one month that isn't the issue (actually from 1912 to 1916), we have more than enough proof that they have their own provisional goverment, a flag even post stamps.








This is the flag used during the revolt mentioned above, after the Prince of Wied was appointed as king




This is the flag they raised in Feb 17 1914 when Epirus was declared autonomous:





Here is a seal/stamp of the same year (note that it says AYTONOMOUS EPIROS):






Edited by Phallanx
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