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Forum LockedSomething I don't understand about Pres. Obama

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Al Jassas View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2009 at 13:47
Hello Bey
 
The US never had a real left wing or even center party. All American parties espoused right wing politics, some to the extreme some to the center but always within the right wing spectrum.
 
The second point is that you contradict yourself. People naturally will vote for the people who serve them, this is in the end the real meaning of democracy. You have no right calling a guy who votes for his interests "brainwashed" because the guy chose what is good for him. Individualism is at the base of the American social contract if one would use this term liberally. I don't need to vote left wing because the poor will get more benifits, I will vote right wing so I could get more benifits and so on.
 
The third point is about small business. Actually small business were one of the major benefactors of the tax cuts of GWB. Small business thrived in the US in the last decade and many start ups especially in technology turned into massive corporations because of the healthy business climate in the US. Expamnsion in big business actually helps expand small businesses too. The current trend in big business is to subcontract and small businesses direcly benifit from subcontracts. For example GM only assembles cars but the rest of the car parts are produced by small and medium size businesses. The reasn for increased bankruptcy are totally different than what you think.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2009 at 14:18
Quote The second point is that you contradict yourself.
No I don't.

Quote People naturally will vote for the people who serve them,
No they don't.

Quote this is in the end the real meaning of democracy.
No it is not.

Quote You have no right calling a guy who votes for his interests "brainwashed" because the guy chose what is good for him.
They are not voting in their own interest, because they are 'brainwashed'. That's the whole point.

Quote Individualism is at the base of the American social contract if one would use this term liberally.
'Individualism' is a myth created to brainwash the poor. 

Quote I don't need to vote left wing because the poor will get more benifits, I will vote right wing so I could get more benifits and so on.
By writing this you are proving my point. Because 'you' (as you wrote 'I') are actually poor, but you are voting so that the rich get the benefits. This is because you believe that you are either rich or you will soon be rich. In fact you are not rich and your wealth has been shrinking for 30 years. That's why you are brainwashed.  

For the top 10% or so of income earners, you are right, they are voting in their own interest, but for the remining 80% or so of Americans, you are wrong. Their interests are the same as the poor they are conditioned to hate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2009 at 14:21

Why do I think that the last US president with a grasp of economics was Richard Nixon?

The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2009 at 14:25
Originally posted by Sparten Sparten wrote:

Why do I think that the last US president with a grasp of economics was Richard Nixon?



Because it's true? Television inaugarated an era where US presidents ceased to be selected on the basis of their merit as adminstrators and became media personalities.



Edited by edgewaters - 10-Feb-2009 at 14:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2009 at 14:26
Originally posted by Roberts Roberts wrote:

Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

h.  The North has become Democratic, and the South Republican, where 100 years ago it was the reverse.
Are American western states like California, Oregon, Utah, Washington, Nevada etc. divided along south/north lines or they are seen as sepperate block?
 
As a matter of opinion, I would categorize the "northwest," Oregon and Washington, as Northern states.
 
California, as is so often the case, is harder to understand.  Northern California tends more toward left-leaning attitudes and politics, and southern California more toward those that are right-leaning.  Some large areas of suburban LA, and some of the agricultural areas are more conservative and attract Republican votes.
 
Interior western states like Idaho and Utah and Nevada are something of an enigma to me.  Utah is Mormon dominated and is usually very conservative in attitude.  Nevada is rather strange, the only large population center being Las Vegas, which is like a mortal sin theme park.  Idaho = ?  Someone needs to enighten me on such a remote place. 
 
Is there some kind of North vs South geographical factor?  I really don't know....maybe it is the heat.  Smile 
 
  


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 10-Feb-2009 at 14:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2009 at 19:28
Originally posted by edgewaters edgewaters wrote:

Originally posted by Sparten Sparten wrote:

Why do I think that the last US president with a grasp of economics was Richard Nixon?



Because it's true? Television inaugarated an era where US presidents ceased to be selected on the basis of their merit as adminstrators and became media personalities.

Exhibit A, Barack Hussein Obama.
 
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2009 at 19:42
Originally posted by Sparten Sparten wrote:

Exhibit A, Barack Hussein Obama.
 


Wink



Edited by edgewaters - 10-Feb-2009 at 19:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2009 at 04:42
Hello Bey
 
Could you please explain to me why people will not vote for thier own best interest?
 
Mind you I live in a country where there is no democracy.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2009 at 09:08
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Hello Bey
 
Could you please explain to me why people will not vote for thier own best interest?


What is left to explain? People are conditioned into a mindset that causes them to vote against their own interests. Mind you, they are not doing this consciously, they believe they are in fact voting for their best interests. The lower classes are lured in with conservative social policies (anti-gay rights, anti-abortion, anti-prostitution etc.) and end up voting for an economic system that will keep them earning 10 dollars an hour, without being able to afford adequate health care or higher education for their children.
Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum,
þeod-cyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2009 at 10:54
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Hello Bey
 
Could you please explain to me why people will not vote for thier own best interest?
 
Mind you I live in a country where there is no democracy.
 
Al-Jassas
people vote in short term ways. It will normally be 'whats in in for me' and stuff that makes sense for themselves but little for the greater good. People prefer tax cuts and hand outs over strategic nation building stuff, until one day the networks are that bad they want both. Throw in three key messages and snazzy catch phrases and democracy has been dumbed down into a instant snack.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2009 at 13:53
Originally posted by Leonidas Leonidas wrote:

Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Hello Bey
 
Could you please explain to me why people will not vote for thier own best interest?
 
Mind you I live in a country where there is no democracy.
 
Al-Jassas
people vote in short term ways. It will normally be 'whats in in for me' and stuff that makes sense for themselves but little for the greater good. People prefer tax cuts and hand outs over strategic nation building stuff, until one day the networks are that bad they want both. Throw in three key messages and snazzy catch phrases and democracy has been dumbed down into a instant snack.
 
Leo,
 
I doubt that what you say has ever been much different since representative government became established.  Mostly it has been magnified because of the overwhelming influence of first, television network news, and now 24 hour competing television hype. 
 
Politics in the abstract is admirable when it works:  it allows a concensus outlet for competing-interest pressures.  However, in detail, it is about who gets the stuff, and who gets off giving out the stuff.
 
"Strategic nation building" is way beyond the interest or the available time to even consider it for 99% of the people who can vote.  Unfortunately, that is why so much policy has to be made "deep" in the structure of administration.  Too few can understand the imperatives, and it is nearly impossible to put an explanation to them that will fly politically.
 
Big smile  Depressing, isn't it?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2009 at 13:51
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

A university education is hardly a determinant as to how one votes.  Mostly it is self interest that determines how one votes.

 
Well, actually no it isn't. It is perceived self-interest that determines how one votes, and perception is affected by the information you receive. It's controlling that information (whether from the pulpit, the press, or the schoolroom) that Bey refers to as 'brainwashing', I presume.
 
On the whole, hugher education helps match perception to reality, but not all that reliably.
 
There's no way on earth that the effect of the Reagan or Bush administrations was in the best interests of the US people.
Quote
The Republican Party, in the last 40 years, has cultivated the votes of Southern, white voters of fundamenatalist persuasion, probably counting on demographics (South and West) to solidify political influence. 
'Cultivating the votes' doesn't just mean promising people what they think they want, it includes propagandising to affect what they think they want, and the priorities they give things.
Quote
 
 The Repubs had a preponderance of university educated voters before that, but since then, not as much.  The North has become Democratic, and the South Republican, where 100 years ago it was the reverse.
Apart from the phenomenon with big cities that Bey noted. New York for example has been Democratic since the two-party system came into being.
 
Not that the controlling people in the NY Democratic party had the best interests of the people in mind. Cool
 
 
[/QUOTE]

Edited by gcle2003 - 13-Feb-2009 at 13:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2009 at 14:05
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Hello Bey
 
The US never had a real left wing or even center party. All American parties espoused right wing politics, some to the extreme some to the center but always within the right wing spectrum.
 
The second point is that you contradict yourself. People naturally will vote for the people who serve them, this is in the end the real meaning of democracy. You have no right calling a guy who votes for his interests "brainwashed" because the guy chose what is good for him.
Bey is calling the guy who votes for what is bad for him 'brainwashed'. He pointed out that some people, even well educated, vote Republican because it is in their interests personally to do so. Halliburrton shareholders aren't the ones being 'brainwashed'. People who vote Republican because they are scared 'the gays will take over' are brainwashed.
Quote
Individualism is at the base of the American social contract if one would use this term liberally. I don't need to vote left wing because the poor will get more benifits, I will vote right wing so I could get more benifits and so on.
Only because they have been brainwashed into not recognising they are the poor - or could become so at any time, just because they fall ill.
 
Pretty well all Americans talk and think of themselves as 'middle-class'. That's why politicians go on about helping the 'middle class'. But the 'middle class' in the US today is Marx's proletariat. Which is why the wealth of the middle class has been declining for thirty years.
Quote
The third point is about small business. Actually small business were one of the major benefactors of the tax cuts of GWB.
Only because big coporations don't pay any taxes worth mentioning.
Quote
Small business thrived in the US in the last decade and many start ups especially in technology turned into massive corporations because of the healthy business climate in the US.
They did that on the back of an immense boom in spurious credit. How many of them failed? And are failing right now? Because the illusion of prosperity was a facade.
Quote
Expamnsion in big business actually helps expand small businesses too. The current trend in big business is to subcontract and small businesses direcly benifit from subcontracts. For example GM only assembles cars but the rest of the car parts are produced by small and medium size businesses. The reasn for increased bankruptcy are totally different than what you think.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2009 at 16:01
Originally posted by Leonidas Leonidas wrote:

Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Hello Bey
 
Could you please explain to me why people will not vote for thier own best interest?
 
Mind you I live in a country where there is no democracy.
 
Al-Jassas
people vote in short term ways. It will normally be 'whats in in for me' and stuff that makes sense for themselves but little for the greater good. People prefer tax cuts and hand outs over strategic nation building stuff, until one day the networks are that bad they want both.
Sue they vote for 'tax cuts' because it sounds good. The reality is that tax cuts don't benefit the mass of people at all (especially when accompanied by cuts in government spending). They benefit the people with the highest incomes most.
 
The illusion here is that tax cuts for the rich 'trickle down' in benefits to the whole economy. They don't. They just increase the savings of the rich. Sending the price of old masters through the roof doesn't benefit anybody except the owners - who tend to be the rich anyway - and the dealers, who are only a tiny minority and also tend to be wealthy anyway.
Quote
Throw in three key messages and snazzy catch phrases and democracy has been dumbed down into a instant snack.
Yes.
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