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Forum LockedSmaller Force vs Bigger Force

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Stark View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09-Apr-2006 at 18:55

Hey I'm new but I got a question. I was wondering if anyone could give me a good list of battles where a smaller force defeated a much larger force. I've read that in Japan Clan Oda marched with 2000 troops against an enemy with something like 20,000 troops, but was still able to gain victory. So any help with battles where a smaller force was able to beat a bigger force would be very nice indeed.

Thanks for any help.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2006 at 19:24
Hi,
There are plenty of such battles actually, Creta 1941, Trafalgar 1805,
(Surcouf sazing of the English flagship, the Kent in 1803) and many many
colonial battle between usualy European armies against non-european
ones (from Cortez to the Zoulou wars).
Although, I think one should be careful before falling in a the elite-troop-
fantasy (isn't it Mr. Rumsfeld?). Indeed, what may seem a superior army
may in fact be much inferior. What I mean is: of course a few SAS or
special forces will defeat 500 untrained fighters, but there what has to be
taken under consideration is the cost of each fighter. Between traning,
equipment and media impact (sadly for human nature) an SAS's life worth
maybe 100 fighters. Not mentionning a large state can lose lots of
soldiers (Persian empire) whereas a small one can't (Athen or Sparta).
Another example, Hannibal won at Cannes but he didn't have any other
choice. If defeated he was sure to be forced to retreat or even worst. On
the contrary, Romans were able to re-create exacty the same army.
I think in any case we should think as wargamers, do both armies worth
the same amount of points?
Hence, did ever an army with much less points defeated a stronger one?
Let say with unmaterial goods: more luck, esprit de corps, courage and
strategic inspiration? This time I don't have any examples.

Edited by Maharbbal
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote majkes1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2006 at 15:49

Kircholm 1605

3,5 thousand Polish-Lithuanian army defeats 11 Swedish army

Kluszyn 1612

7 thousand Polish-Lithuanian army defeats 35 thousands Russian-Swedish army

Battle of Somosierra 1808 - about 100 Polish lancers force to retreat 10.000 Spanish army

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John the Kern Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2006 at 21:20
Assaye, Lord Wellesly, (wellington) 5,000 troops most Sepoys 70,000+ Mahratta troops, trained and commaded by european officers, under General Pohlmann, previouslt a Hanoverian Sergent entered Prince Scindias service and florished. Wellesly attacked in a 2 man line, gun count maybe 20 serois peices in the british camp over a 100 in the mahratta
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerenalissimus Sinclair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2006 at 00:31
I'm new too and although i don't know the dates of the battles here are a few i know

Battle of Azincourt

Vimy Ridge

and while we're on the subject of big army vs small army, id like to say that a massive marching force can be frightening but id rather have a smaller number of extremely well trained stealthy soldiers because in my opinion its far more effective
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2006 at 07:00
Battle of Stirling Bridge-  About 20,000 Scots outnumbered by 40,000 English
Battle of Bannockburn- About 10,000 Scots outnumbered by 30,000 English
Battle of He Fei- Zhang Liao and 800 Wei forces hold back 10,000 Wu forces led by Sun Jian

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2006 at 23:05
Thanks for all the battles so far, gives me alot of things to look up. Does anyone know any others battles where a smaller force came out on top before guns were used? So during the middle ages or earlier?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2006 at 23:51

Originally posted by Maharbbal Maharbbal wrote:

Hi, 
Indeed, what may seem a superior army may in fact be much inferior.

What I mean is: of course a few SAS or special forces will defeat 500 untrained fighters, but there what has to be taken under consideration is the cost of each fighter.

Not mentionning a large state can lose lots of
soldiers (Persian empire) whereas a small one can't (Athen or Sparta).

A very poignant analysis.

The Oda clan won with smaller numbers, but that was all they had so each man more valuable than the enemy, so a greater force.

Assaye, the Maharathas again were using everything they had, the British could just send for another army.

In fact I think every battle mentioned so far.

 

What we need is a country with a lot of resources and men using only a few poorly trained troops to beat a large seasoned force from a small country with little men and resources.

Perhaps Mons Graupius

Where the Romans sent in the auxilleries and never used the legionaries, had the whole resources of the empire behind them if they lost. The Scots were using everything they had and their best.



Edited by Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turkoglu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2006 at 10:23
Preveze Naval Battle.
Barbaros Hayreddin Pasha vs Andrea Doria
Barbaros wins.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2006 at 12:39

Battle of Kohima

Most of the early Arab conquests, Mongols vivtories, Alexander at Issus and Guegamula, Martahon, the early phases of the German armys assault on Moscow, Singapore 42.

But, remember none of these battles were slogging matches. If they had been the people who broght more toys to the party would have won. In each case it was something else, tactics (like at Cannae) interior lines, technology (Spanish in new world), training (Iraq) or most of all terrain. Armies have used those to their advantage, to compansate for numerical inferoirty. And in many case they may have been outnumbered in terms of men in theater, but not in terms of men engaged.

 

The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2006 at 13:58

Battle of al-Qâdisiyyah

One of the most famed battles of Islamic history which ended with an end to the Persian Empire and the start of a new Islamic country.
The Arab Muslims under the leadership of Sa'ad ibn Abi Waqqas were out numbered by the Persians under Rostam Farrokhzad, but still the end result was a Decisive Arab victory.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2006 at 15:01
Battle of Yarmouk 636 A.D :- the Arab(35,000 men) under Khalid Bin al Walid defeated a huge Byzantine army (70,000) under Theodore the Sacellarius and Baanes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulgarian Soldja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 18:52

Battle of Anchialus - 917 A.D.

110 000 Byzantines against 70 000 Bulgarians ...... and the bulgarians inflicted some 70 000 casualties on them and only lost 20 - 25 000

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 23:30
Originally posted by majkes1 majkes1 wrote:

Kircholm 1605

3,5 thousand Polish-Lithuanian army defeats 11 Swedish army

Kluszyn 1612

7 thousand Polish-Lithuanian army defeats 35 thousands Russian-Swedish army

Battle of Somosierra 1808 - about 100 Polish lancers force to retreat 10.000 Spanish army

Battle of Lubieszow 1577 - 2000 Polish soldiers defeated 12 000 Germans

Battle of Chocim 1621 (7th September) - 650 Polish hussars defeated 10 000 Ottomans

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ahujatdsro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2006 at 01:50
Does any one know about Sikh History
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2006 at 20:01

1810 battle of Fuengirola. 300 Poles defeated 1200 British and 1000 Spanish, captured british general and artillery, sink some british ships.

http://web2.airmail.net/napoleon/Fuengirola.htm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hannibal Barca Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2006 at 22:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2006 at 06:49
Originally posted by ataman ataman wrote:


Battle of Chocim 1621 (7th September) - 650 Polish hussars defeated
10 000 Ottomans



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2006 at 07:07
Originally posted by Bulgarian Soldja Bulgarian Soldja wrote:

Battle of Anchialus - 917 A.D.

110 000 Byzantines against 70 000 Bulgarians ...... and the bulgarians inflicted some 70 000 casualties on them and only lost 20 - 25 000




Be serious.....
Whats your sources?
110.000 army ?  70.000 casualties?
Anchialus is some kilometers away from Constantinoupolis..
.probaly the Bulgarians didnt find the way...so they didnt captured the city then


Edited by Digenis
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulgarian Soldja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 17:17

Wateva .... pretty much every source u read says the same figures.

Have a wank and do some more research.

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