History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedSimilarities between Mongol and Turkic la

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
kamran View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 10-Aug-2007
Location: Pakistan
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kamran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Similarities between Mongol and Turkic la
    Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 11:35
Some linguists say these are loosely related languages but the commonalities in quantity and quality are so much that these cannot be termed loosely related. If there were just thousands of loan words between these languages we could have said them to be unrelated or loosely related. But the words that are common or similar are most cardinal words like colours, names of relations, adjectives, names of parts of body, of animals, of land features. Both the groups say "kara" to denote black, "aak" to denote white, "arsalan" to denote lion and so many more. These are the most basic words and no people gets the loan words for such things from another people.   So the lingual affinity runs very very deep.

Edited by kamran - 21-Aug-2007 at 04:36
Back to Top
tavsan View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 12-Aug-2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tavsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2007 at 00:28
I am not sure  which authorities you are referring to, but Mongolian & Turkic dialects are closely related. The only scholars who seem to contradict this view seem to be those who have no knowledge of either Turkish or Mongolian. Plus, if Mongolian is not related to Turkic dialects, what is it related to , then - Yiddish?
Back to Top
kamran View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 10-Aug-2007
Location: Pakistan
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kamran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2007 at 03:27
I must make it clear that I don't understand either of these languages, but reading the historical stuff about Mongols and Central Asian Turks their similarities really startle me.
 
Moreover most of the given names are the same or very close between these languages. For example Toghan, toq, Teemoor (Mongols say it Tumoor??), Tamish, Dayaan, Noyaan, Ulugh, Qutlugh......
Back to Top
Penelope View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Alia Atreides

Joined: 26-Aug-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1044
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 02:02
Just because a people speak similar languages, does not mean that they are of the same ethnic group. Keep that in mind.
Back to Top
kamran View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 10-Aug-2007
Location: Pakistan
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kamran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 02:09
I am concerned only with lingual affinity not ethnic. Anyway Chinoid faced Turkic peoples like Kazaks, Uzbeks, Yakuts, Tuvans might have ethnic affinityas well with the Mongols.

Edited by kamran - 14-Aug-2007 at 09:47
Back to Top
kamran View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 10-Aug-2007
Location: Pakistan
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kamran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 02:12

Are there any Mongols here who would come up with comparative word lists of Mongolic and Turkic languages to highlight the similarities and differences between these languages??????

Back to Top
Hulegu Han View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 10-Apr-2007
Location: Mongolia
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hulegu Han Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 04:21

I think I have better knowledge on this topic since I am fluent on both Mongolic and some Turkic languages (Kazakhian, Turkish).

Shortly, these languages have same roots but lost relation gradually in last centuries. Especially in mediaval period after Mongol ampire; as Mongols who had been isolated from their Turkic frontiers in terms of culture and politics, Mongolian has developed in different way.
One more reason is different religion. Islam is the religion which made Turko-Mongolian nations in Central Asia get closer to each other. In contrary for Mongols, they ignored Islam and chose Buddism as a main religion of their states (Dzungarian khanate, Eastern Mongolian khanates).
Today there aren't so many similar words in these languages. It means the same words changed in their  own way and don't look similar. For example,  black- khar (in Mongolian) - kara (Kazakhian, rarely used in Turksih)
                      yellow- shar - sari
                      milk - suu - sut
                      flower - tsetseg - chichek(in Turkish means "rose")
                      state - uls - ulus
                      to sob - (barhir-) - (bagir-)
                      sea - tengis - deniz
Here are some mistake, as you see, in writing Turkish since I don't have Turksih language keybord now.
Back to Top
kamran View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 10-Aug-2007
Location: Pakistan
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kamran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 04:56
That was well done Hulaku Han. 
 
Yes, it does seem that the modern Mongol language has distanced itself from its Turk neighbours. Even in personal names no more are there to be found Daayaans, Teemoors, Ulughs, Arsalans, Qutlughs....  in Mongolia.


Edited by kamran - 16-Aug-2007 at 04:40
Back to Top
kamran View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 10-Aug-2007
Location: Pakistan
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kamran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 04:51
Hulagu Han,
Modern Mongols, it sems have dropped the consonants "kh" and "k". "Karakoram is now "Harahoran" "khan" is now pronounced "Han"???
 Is it right.
 
Another interesting thing is that Mongols and even Turks confuse similar consonants.  For example "Kuyuk" or "Quyuq" is also written as "Guyug" a mix up between the consonantal sounds of G and K.
"Boqa" is also written as "Bogha" a confusion between "gh" and "q" (this mix up occurs in Faarsi (Persian) as well)
"Temujin" is also pronounced as "Temuchin," a confusion between the rather similar sounding consonants "ch" and "j." "Chengiz" is also written as "Jengis" "Chingis" even "Tengiz" etc.
Back to Top
kamran View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 10-Aug-2007
Location: Pakistan
Status: Offline
Points: 28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kamran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 04:52
Hulagu Han,
Modern Mongols, it seems have dropped the consonants "kh" and "k". "Karakoram is now "Harahoram" "khan" is now pronounced "Han"???
 
 
Another interesting thing is that Mongols and even Turks confuse similar consonants.  For example "Kuyuk" or "Quyuq" is also written as "Guyug" a mix up between the consonantal sounds of G and K.
"Boqa" is also written as "Bogha" a confusion between "gh" and "q" (this mix up occurs in Faarsi (Persian) as well)
"Temujin" is also pronounced as "Temuchin," a confusion between the rather similar sounding consonants "ch" and "j." "Chengiz" is also written as "Jengis" "Chingis" even "Tengiz" etc.
Back to Top
omshanti View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 02-Nov-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 429
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 06:24
Originally posted by Hulegu Han Hulegu Han wrote:

[ black- khar (in Mongolian) - kara(Kazakhian, rarely used in Turksih)
This is interesting, black in Japanese is kuro.
Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Superfluous Enabler of Sekostan

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8682
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 09:11
Thanks for your input Hulegu Han, as well as the rest of our members in this discussion. We could use more knowledgable Mongolians around here. 
Copyright 2004 Seko
Back to Top
Kerimoglu View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 05-Oct-2006
Status: Offline
Points: 313
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kerimoglu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2007 at 07:48
Just because a people speak similar languages, does not mean that they are of the same ethnic group. Keep that in mind.
Dear Penolope, NOBODY here in this topic ever said that Turks and Mongols are the same. I wonder why every time we talk about language similar to ours, everyone pissess off.
 
All Altaic languages will have lots in common, Turkic group understands itself pretty easy, and Mingol is very similar since we have been living together.
History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow!
Back to Top
Penelope View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Alia Atreides

Joined: 26-Aug-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1044
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2007 at 08:22
Originally posted by Kerimoglu Kerimoglu wrote:

Just because a people speak similar languages, does not mean that they are of the same ethnic group. Keep that in mind.
Dear Penolope, NOBODY here in this topic ever said that Turks and Mongols are the same. I wonder why every time we talk about language similar to ours, everyone pissess off.
 
All Altaic languages will have lots in common, Turkic group understands itself pretty easy, and Mingol is very similar since we have been living together.
 
Dear Kerimagu, this very same topic is being discussed in numerous other threads, and in these kind of threads people tend to claim that similarities in language equals a relation between ethnicities, which it doesnt.
 
And as for the record, i never stated that anyone here said that Mongols and turks were the same. Re-read my previous statement please.
Back to Top
gok_toruk View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
9 Oghuz

Joined: 28-Apr-2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1832
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2007 at 08:10
A comparison between Mongolian and Turkic.

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21287&PID=393092#393092

Edited by gok_toruk - 18-Aug-2007 at 08:11
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
Back to Top
tavsan View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 12-Aug-2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tavsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2007 at 23:52

Here is a list of quite a bit of cognates and other similar aspects of Turkic and Mongolian languages...

Back to Top
tavsan View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 12-Aug-2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tavsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2007 at 23:58
But, aren't you the only one who has been using the very word "ethnicity" in this thread? So far, aside from you, or until you brought it up, nobody evet touched on that word in terms of Turks and Mongols being ethnically related. The original thread is about lingiustic similarities. Perhaps that is what needs to be kept in mind.
 
Originally posted by Penelope Penelope wrote:

Originally posted by Kerimoglu Kerimoglu wrote:

Just because a people speak similar languages, does not mean that they are of the same ethnic group. Keep that in mind.
Dear Penolope, NOBODY here in this topic ever said that Turks and Mongols are the same. I wonder why every time we talk about language similar to ours, everyone pissess off.
 
All Altaic languages will have lots in common, Turkic group understands itself pretty easy, and Mingol is very similar since we have been living together.
 
Dear Kerimagu, this very same topic is being discussed in numerous other threads, and in these kind of threads people tend to claim that similarities in language equals a relation between ethnicities, which it doesnt.
 
And as for the record, i never stated that anyone here said that Mongols and turks were the same. Re-read my previous statement please.
Back to Top
Penelope View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Alia Atreides

Joined: 26-Aug-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1044
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2007 at 03:44
Originally posted by sikiskentavsan sikiskentavsan wrote:

But, aren't you the only one who has been using the very word "ethnicity" in this thread? So far, aside from you, or until you brought it up, nobody evet touched on that word in terms of Turks and Mongols being ethnically related. The original thread is about lingiustic similarities. Perhaps that is what needs to be kept in mind.
 
Originally posted by Penelope Penelope wrote:

Originally posted by Kerimoglu Kerimoglu wrote:

Just because a people speak similar languages, does not mean that they are of the same ethnic group. Keep that in mind.
Dear Penolope, NOBODY here in this topic ever said that Turks and Mongols are the same. I wonder why every time we talk about language similar to ours, everyone pissess off.
 
All Altaic languages will have lots in common, Turkic group understands itself pretty easy, and Mingol is very similar since we have been living together.
 
Dear Kerimagu, this very same topic is being discussed in numerous other threads, and in these kind of threads people tend to claim that similarities in language equals a relation between ethnicities, which it doesnt.
 
And as for the record, i never stated that anyone here said that Mongols and turks were the same. Re-read my previous statement please.
 
Please re-read what i stated. OTHER threads which are in discussion of the same exact topic, have usually ended up in the arguement of ethnicity. Knowing that, it would not be out of character, to assume that this thread, would also lead to the exact same thing. It doesnt take a rocket scientist.
 
Finally, i would like to know why you double posted, isnt that illegal?


Edited by Penelope - 19-Aug-2007 at 03:56
Back to Top
tavsan View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 12-Aug-2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 0
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tavsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2007 at 17:40
I don't know. I didn't realize I double posted until you pointed it out. I must have double-clicked by accident. But, in either case, I think you should call the police in your county and report this 'illegal' activity.
 
Regarding your extensive experience with threads and forums, I still emphasize heavily that, until you decided to spread your wisdom, nobody had uttered the word ethnicity. Hence, the glorious credit goes to you.
 
Do us a favor, and please let us enjoy our perfectly valid thread without your dominatrix-like presence giving us all a piece of advice.
 
Maybe, if you just wait a little, you may notice that not all threads end up the same way, and that we may be very interested in this discussion without getting into pointless arguments, such as this one!
 
Frankly, you are in no position to get mad at me for what I stated, as it is perfectly true that it is only YOU who has introduced the word ETHNICITY into this thread. If you don't believe me, then I suggest you go to the original post and read everything till you see your own nick pasted with a special brand of ETHNICITY ...
 
cheers
Back to Top
Penelope View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar
Alia Atreides

Joined: 26-Aug-2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1044
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2007 at 01:03
Originally posted by sikiskentavsan sikiskentavsan wrote:

I don't know. I didn't realize I double posted until you pointed it out. I must have double-clicked by accident. But, in either case, I think you should call the police in your county and report this 'illegal' activity.
 
Regarding your extensive experience with threads and forums, I still emphasize heavily that, until you decided to spread your wisdom, nobody had uttered the word ethnicity. Hence, the glorious credit goes to you.
 
Do us a favor, and please let us enjoy our perfectly valid thread without your dominatrix-like presence giving us all a piece of advice.
 
Maybe, if you just wait a little, you may notice that not all threads end up the same way, and that we may be very interested in this discussion without getting into pointless arguments, such as this one!
 
Frankly, you are in no position to get mad at me for what I stated, as it is perfectly true that it is only YOU who has introduced the word ETHNICITY into this thread. If you don't believe me, then I suggest you go to the original post and read everything till you see your own nick pasted with a special brand of ETHNICITY ...
 
cheers
 
lol, Ethnicity  Ethnicity  Ethnicity  Ethnicity. When did i ever deny that i didnt type the word? And no sweety, i am not mad at you, or anyone else. As i stated earlier, these topics usually end with a discussion of ethnicity. With someone always claiming that Genghis is some how, and in some way, a turk. And as for you stating that i am a dominatrix, i seriously suggest that you keep your fantasy to yourself. I am merely here to Learn, not dominate. What you fail to realize, is that these little "discussions" help me with my school papers. Lastly, if you are truely affected by me so negatively, why even respond to my posts? That puzzles me.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.082 seconds.