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Forum LockedSecond Siege of Constantinople

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Brainstorm View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 14:53
Take a look at your signature to understand how "scientific" are your arguments,or how much r u dreaming
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 15:07
"Then the whole army of the Arabs was positioned on the western coast against the Golden Gates. He [Maslama] ordered that a ditch be made around the camp - one between it and the city and another one behind them [the Arabs], from the side of the Bulgars. From the left and from the right the camp was abut upon the sea, in which were the ships, loaded with an army - from ten thousand of Arabs and Egyptian soldiers, - them he placed at the sea to fight the Roman ships; he sent a 20 000 strong army to guard the camp against the Bulgars; and he placed that much from the Syrians.

The Arabs were attacked by land both by the people from the city [Constantinople] and by the Bulgars, and in the sea - by the Roman ships, and on the other side of the sea [on the coast of Asia Minor] by the Roman vanguard. They couldn't get out of the camp to a distance greater than two miles, while they were forced to search for wheat. The Bulgars attacked the Arabs and slew them; those latter [the Arabs] feared the Bulgars more than they feared the besieged Romans. The winter came, but the Arabs were afraid of retreating: first - because of their king, second - because of the sea and third - because of the Bulgars. The wind of death grabbed them. Maslama lied to them, as he was saying that soon reinforcements from their king would arrive. The Romans were besieged, but the Arabs were no better than them. The hunger oppressed them so much that they were eating the corpses of the dead, each other's faeces and filths. They were forced to exterminate themselves, so that they could eat. One modius of wheat was worth then ten denarii. They were looking for small rocks, they were eating them to satisfy their hunger. They ate the rubbish from their ships."
                               Michael of Syria

This source is absolutely reliable and tell us much about bulgarian contribution.

Hi , this is my first post in AE Forum.I hope that my enlglish is enougn good to understand me.   
It is only the dead who have seen the end of war.
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Anton View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 15:18
Originally posted by Brainstorm Brainstorm wrote:

Take a look at your signature to understand how "scientific" are your arguments,or how much r u dreaming
 
LOL Tell me what am I dreaming. I have no idea what I am dreaming. As for the signature, there are some dudes who believe that nationality of the researcher  influences the results. My signature is an answer to them. I have explained this before but you are so blind to read everything, just hat you want. "Be serious. At least try to be" (C)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 15:27
Originally posted by Brainstorm Brainstorm wrote:

i would name it ,an expression of tiredness by the Bulgarian nationalistic dreams of majesty,in every thread.
A thread ,namely for the second siege of Constantinople by Arabs,but in fact another effort to praise Bulgarian nationalism...
sad.
 
Brainstorm,
 
You owe your existence today to the heroic sacrifice of the Bulgarian soldiers, who fought and died in 718 so that your ancestors would not become slaves to the Arab conquerors.
 
Show some respect!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nikodemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 18:15
Originally posted by bg_turk bg_turk wrote:

You owe your existence today to the heroic sacrifice of the Bulgarian soldiers, who fought and died in 718 so that your ancestors would not become slaves to the Arab conquerors.
 


this is an exaggeration.The arabs failed to blockade the city so it was just a matter of time before the Arabs started losing large numbers of soldiers because of food shortage.The Bulgarian relief force just speed up the events.Sooner or later even if it hadn't been for the Bulgarians the Arabs would lift the siege.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 18:28
In one hand you are right, nikodemos. On another, Turks conquered lands around Constantinople and later without being in a hurry took the city itself. Arabs could do the same. But in any case these "ifs" are not very much historical :) BTW, bulgarians are proud of this participation and role their ancestors had in defeat of Arabs, but that does not mean they cry about this in every cafeteria Wink 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 18:29
Gentlemen, let's keep the discussion civil. As I myself have hinted at earlier, this really was a team effort of which both civilisations can take a lot of pride in. By defeating this invasion they saved Western Civilisation and did a great service to humanity.

Who knows, had they shown similar solidarity in the 14th century they may have been able to survive yet longer.
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 18:54

The Bulgars saved Europe.

However, if the Arabs had suceeded would it have been worse for humanity? looking at the achievements of Al-Andalus, Europe could have benefited really.
      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 19:00
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

However, if the Arabs had suceeded would it have been worse for humanity? looking at the achievements of Al-Andalus, Europe could have benefited really.

 
That is too complicated question. It would be different. There would be more Avicenna's and Hayams. May be whole Europe would be Islamic. Definitely not worse not better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nikodemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 05:02
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

In one hand you are right, nikodemos. On another, Turks conquered lands around Constantinople and later without being in a hurry took the city itself. Arabs could do the same. But in any case these "ifs" are not very much historical :) BTW, bulgarians are proud of this participation and role their ancestors had in defeat of Arabs, but that does not mean they cry about this in every cafeteria Wink 


Anton,the Byzantine navy before the fall of the city to the ottoman turks was inexistent.The emperor himself had used catalan galleys provided by the Duchy of Athens in order to get to the city (from Peloponesos to Constantinople) and organise the defence.
On the other hand during the second siege of Constantinople by the Arabs the byzantine navy was able to defend the city.
The ottomans succeeded because they successfully blockaded the city and managed to get inside the Goldenhorn.The city was surrounded by land and sea.This was not the case during the second Arab siege.The Arab navy didn't manage to do the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 06:04
When Constantinople fell (in 1204 and in 1453), domination on the sea was necessary. In 1453 add the damaging artilery, though its damage was relative, it didn't literally put the walls down and the not-numerous defenders had time to fill the holes in the walls with whatever they had handy.
Arabs had none of them, so they could just make some noise in front of the walls, like many others did.
 
As for Bulgarians being saviours, let's get serious - Bulgarians were at the feet of some other powerful aggresors (vassals to Mongols, subjugated by Ottomans) and Europe lived. Actually, if we look back we notice no single power could ever conquer militarily the entire Europe, therefore anyone hunting heroic saviours should first prove how Europe could be conquered. This is the burden of proof!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 06:28
I don't think we discuss the right question. Let us discuss what actually happen. Does anyone have good information about details of that battle?
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Krum View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 10:50
Originally posted by Chilbudios Chilbudios wrote:

When Constantinople fell (in 1204 and in 1453), domination on the sea was necessary. In 1453 add the damaging artilery, though its damage was relative, it didn't literally put the walls down and the not-numerous defenders had time to fill the holes in the walls with whatever they had handy.
Arabs had none of them, so they could just make some noise in front of the walls, like many others did.

 

As for Bulgarians being saviours, let's get serious - Bulgarians were at the feet of some other powerful aggresors (vassals to Mongols, subjugated by Ottomans) and Europe lived. Actually, if we look back we notice no single power could ever conquer militarily the entire Europe, therefore anyone hunting heroic saviours should first prove how Europe could be conquered. This is the burden of proof!


Bulgaria didnt save the whole europe,but if Constantinople fall,the way for Islam to central europe would be cleared.And that would slow up or stop the development of christian europe.
    
It is only the dead who have seen the end of war.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 11:31
Quote Bulgaria didnt save the whole europe,but if Constantinople fall,the way for Islam to central europe would be cleared
Huh? So the remaining Byzantine Empire in the Balkans, Bulgarian state itself in Balkans, other Slavic populations and political entities of various importance and strength, Avars, Bavarians, and perhaps we should mention Lombards and Franks which in those years were campaigning in Central Europe - do you think they do not matter? Do you think a single city was the defense of Europe, a huge area dominated by various powers? And a hint: if Bulgarian state could not stretch to Central Europe it means there were other centers of power balancing it, and if they were for Bulgarians, they certainly were for Arabs or whomever would have conquered Constantinople or both Byzantine and Bulgarian states.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Krum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 13:50
I didnt mean only military invasion but a religious one which is far more dangerous for christian world.
It is only the dead who have seen the end of war.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 14:15
By defeating this invasion they saved Western Civilisation and did a great service to humanity.
 
Humanity?LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 15:41
Originally posted by bg_turk bg_turk wrote:

 
Brainstorm,
 
You owe your existence today to the heroic sacrifice of the Bulgarian soldiers, who fought and died in 718 so that your ancestors would not become slaves to the Arab conquerors.
 
Show some respect!


LOL


Edited by Brainstorm - 27-Oct-2006 at 15:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 18:14
Originally posted by Brainstorm Brainstorm wrote:

Originally posted by bg_turk bg_turk wrote:

 
Brainstorm,
 
You owe your existence today to the heroic sacrifice of the Bulgarian soldiers, who fought and died in 718 so that your ancestors would not become slaves to the Arab conquerors.
 
Show some respect!


LOL
 
What do you want from him,bg_turk? He wants to see us blind, accroding to his previous posts Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 23:53
Quote I didnt mean only military invasion but a religious one which is far more dangerous for christian world.
I think an earlier collapse of the Byzantine Empire could have ment rather a larger expansion of Western Catholicism in Eastern Europe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Liudovik_Nemski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 02:12
The arabian navy coudn't get inside the city but it still could harass any ships bringing food,weapons and soldiers into the city.The arabians could have simply starved the city to death.

And if it wasn't the bulgars to block the arabians from behind they could easily send detachments to pillage farms and get wheat for eating.Cool

P.S. sorry for the long delay i come in my home city rarely.


Edited by Liudovik_Nemski - 28-Oct-2006 at 02:28
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