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Forum LockedSecond Siege of Constantinople

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Liudovik_Nemski View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 15:53
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_arab_siege_of_constantinople

If it wasn't the almighty and undefeatble proto-bulgar cavalry all of Europe would be muslim.


Edited by Liudovik_Nemski - 30-Oct-2006 at 16:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 16:12
The defeat of the Second Arab siege of Constantinople was a team effort, the really decisive factor was the defence structure of the city of Constantinople.
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Liudovik_Nemski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 16:18
The romans were scared and called Khan Tervel for help the bulgar army didn't come as volunteers.
If Constantinople's walls were such a major advantage they woudn't have called the bulgars for help.And just compare the casualties the arabs gave to bulgarians and the ones they gave to byzantines...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 16:31
Originally posted by Liudovik_Nemski Liudovik_Nemski wrote:

The romans were scared and called Khan Tervel for help the bulgar army didn't come as volunteers.
If Constantinople's walls were such a major advantage they woudn't have called the bulgars for help.And just compare the casualties the arabs gave to bulgarians and the ones they gave to byzantines...


Yes but the Byzantines were solely responsible for defeating the Arabs at sea, for which they must be given credit. Also, the Bulgars did not hit the Arabs until after the Arabs had launched many attacks against Constantinople while they were fresh. By the time the Bulgars did attack the Arabs, the Arabs were literally starving and suffering from an awful winter. So let's no give too much credit to one side in this war, it was a team effort for which both can take credit.
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 01:18
Originally posted by Liudovik_Nemski Liudovik_Nemski wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_arab_siege_of_constantinople

If it wasn't the almighty and undefeatble proto-bulgar cavalry all of Europe would be muslim.
explain howcome when Eastern Europe did fall to the Turks, howcome they did not turn muslim then?
 
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 01:33
Originally posted by Sparten Sparten wrote:

Originally posted by Liudovik_Nemski Liudovik_Nemski wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_arab_siege_of_constantinople

If it wasn't the almighty and undefeatble proto-bulgar cavalry all of Europe would be muslim.
explain howcome when Eastern Europe did fall to the Turks, howcome they did not turn muslim then?
 


At that particular stage Eastern Europe was pagan and had too weak an infrastructure to withstand the more sophisticated military and power of the Islamic world.

In the West, these states were also weak and vulnerable, barely able to hold out against barbarians from the north and east while fighting off the Arabs to the South. The added impetus of an Islamic invasion supported by the manpower and wealth of the Byzantine territories would have been enough to truly overwhelm Western Christendom.

By the 14-17th centuries, however, the rest of Europe had strengthened and consolidated itself to the point it could defend itself.
It is not the challenges a people face which define who they are, but rather the way in which they respond to those challenges.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NikeBG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 06:44
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Originally posted by Liudovik_Nemski Liudovik_Nemski wrote:

The romans were scared and called Khan Tervel for help the bulgar army didn't come as volunteers.
If Constantinople's walls were such a major advantage they woudn't have called the bulgars for help.And just compare the casualties the arabs gave to bulgarians and the ones they gave to byzantines...


Yes but the Byzantines were solely responsible for defeating the Arabs at sea, for which they must be given credit. Also, the Bulgars did not hit the Arabs until after the Arabs had launched many attacks against Constantinople while they were fresh. By the time the Bulgars did attack the Arabs, the Arabs were literally starving and suffering from an awful winter. So let's no give too much credit to one side in this war, it was a team effort for which both can take credit.

Check the Wiki article! IIRC, Michail Syrian writes that the Arabs had to build palisades from both sides of their camp (facing the city and facing the Bulgars) and because of that they starved so much. I agree, however, that the Byzantines should be given enough credit, since they really deserve it and it was the Greek fire, which defeated the Arab fleet, and mostly the Bulgar cavalry, which defeated the Arab land forces. But I have to admit that right now the only credit is given to the Bulgars, who, although they were a great factor in this battle, didn't destroy the Arabs single-handedly...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 09:42

Those "Bulgars" were Bulgar's in that era and should not be confused with modern-day Bulgarians who feel they are Slavs, they were the Turkic Bulgars who still exist today, Chuvash Turks who are Christian and Volga Tatars.

It's also naturally something Bulgarians consider a part of their history as everybody likes claiming heroic victories however, also other Bulgar's who still today are Bulgar's with the same language and identity as back then and Turkic groups can consider it a part of their history. 


Edited by Bulldog - 24-Oct-2006 at 09:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Burdokva Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 10:29
Something I posted in another thread on the forums:

As for the Siege in 717- Tervel did play a crucial part. It's hard, if not impossible (not to mention- stupid) to argue about "the most" importaint figure of the Siege, but without the bulgar who trapped the arabs from the late summer/early autumn them (the arabs) could have easily pilleged the entire region and ressuplied themselves with food and water. Even if they couldn't breach Constantinopole's defences (mind you, the Byz navy broke trough in the winter) they would have devastated the country and population and forced Leo to fight them in the open, most probably resulting in a defeat. Which in turn would have doomed the city.

Not to say that without Tervel and his army the byzantines couldn't have won, but at least the arabs would have left a state which was a wreck. If not worse...


Those "Bulgars" were Bulgar's in that era and should not be confused with modern-day Bulgarians who feel they are Slavs, they were the Turkic Bulgars who still exist today, Chuvash Turks who are Christian and Volga Tatars.

Actually those are the forefathers of modern day Bulgarians. I can't see your point here- are you saying we're different people? Why shouldn't we "claim" it was a part of our history, when it simply is?
It's like saying the Greeks shouldn't be proud of their history, and that battle in particular, because the Empire was called Byzantium and not Greece!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 12:50
Hi Burdokva,
 
The reason I made that comment is due to some certain members of this forum who have attempted to renounce any link what-so-ever to "Bulgars" because they were initially a Turkic people (and still are in some other areas outside Bulgaria).
 
In my opinion ofcourse this is Bulgarian history, I was just pointing out the ironical stance of some members here, who renounce Bulgars one minute and are proud of them the other.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 14:07
Originally posted by Bulldog Bulldog wrote:

Hi Burdokva, 
In my opinion ofcourse this is Bulgarian history, I was just pointing out the ironical stance of some members here, who renounce Bulgars one minute and are proud of them the other.
 
Certain members is me Big smile  I just asked to point me to proofs of turkicness of protobulgars and got irony instead of answer...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 05:11
OK ,after assuring that Byzantine Empire was living in the shadow of her Majesty,the allmighty Bulgarian Empire,influenced ,feeling terror,owing her shallow life to this magnificent Nation,
then we have to decide wether These incredible warriors,who spread culture,and created a super-power ,similar to modern USA ,were Turcic or Bulgars!
...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 05:43
Originally posted by Brainstorm Brainstorm wrote:

OK ,after assuring that Byzantine Empire was living in the shadow of her Majesty,the allmighty Bulgarian Empire,influenced ,feeling terror,owing her shallow life to this magnificent Nation,
then we have to decide wether These incredible warriors,who spread culture,and created a super-power ,similar to modern USA ,were Turcic or Bulgars!
...
 
What was that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 11:57
i would name it ,an expression of tiredness by the Bulgarian nationalistic dreams of majesty,in every thread.
A thread ,namely for the second siege of Constantinople by Arabs,but in fact another effort to praise Bulgarian nationalism...
sad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 12:27
Originally posted by Brainstorm Brainstorm wrote:

i would name it ,an expression of tiredness by the Bulgarian nationalistic dreams of majesty,in every thread.
A thread ,namely for the second siege of Constantinople by Arabs,but in fact another effort to praise Bulgarian nationalism...
sad.
 
Muahaha! You think you can stop it by posting similar sh*t in every thread? LOL
 I will name it: greek nationalistic dreams.


Edited by Anton - 25-Oct-2006 at 12:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 14:04
Of course i cannot stop it,since there are people as blind as u,trying to prove their funny wishfull thoughts for the "glory of their nation" in every thread.

Is it a greek nationalistic dream t oclaim that Bulgarians werent both the "saviours" and "destructors" of byzantine empire?
 Confused
Anyone who disagrees with this is greek nationalist.
Be serious plz (at least try)



Edited by Brainstorm - 25-Oct-2006 at 14:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 14:16
Originally posted by Brainstorm Brainstorm wrote:

Of course i cannot stop it,since there are people as blind as u,trying to prove their funny wishfull thoughts for the "glory of their nation" in every thread.

 
Me??? Where for example? Did you read my first answer in this thread? Who is blind after that? Ouch
 
Edited: not in this thread but another started by Ludovik.


Edited by Anton - 25-Oct-2006 at 14:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 14:20
Originally posted by Brainstorm Brainstorm wrote:



Is it a greek nationalistic dream t oclaim that Bulgarians werent both the "saviours" and "destructors" of byzantine empire?
 Confused
Anyone who disagrees with this is greek nationalist.
Be serious plz (at least try)
 
Well, you are probably tired of my favorite example but I will repeat it again: Greek nationalism is what was in your favorite movie about wedding Tongue 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brainstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 14:36
my what?
can u mention me where lies my "nationalism" ?

"if it wasnt the allmighty and un-defeatable proto-bulgar cavalry all europe would be muslim"

Big smile




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 14:44
No, it is your turn first. You wrote:
since there are people as blind as u,trying to prove their funny wishfull thoughts for the "glory of their nation" in every thread.
Where did I do that? In which "every thread"?
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