History Community ~ All Empires Homepage


This is the Archive on WORLD Historia, the old original forum.

 You cannot post here - you can only read.

 

Here is the link to the new forum:

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Forum LockedSaxon and Scythian

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 42434445>
Author
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Status: Offline
Points: 3963
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 10:47
Aelle, unfortunately the connections between north European peoples and Scythians or other Iranian peoples is already regarded as a dishonour, so it doesn't matter that you give numerous sources about it or not, they don't want to believe it. Almost all historical sources talk about a Scythian migration to the modern Germanic lands, whethee Bede the “Father of English History,” says it or anyone else, they think all historians were liars and truth is just something that they say, but what are their sources? Nothing!
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Status: Offline
Points: 1064
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 10:53
Bede doesn't talk about Saxons or any Germanic peoples. Nobody denies that Iranian and Germanic peoples were neighbours some times. And it's not dishonour, it's just pseudohistory, that's all. Why do keep acting like a child??
A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
Back to Top
Some View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian


Joined: 11-Nov-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 168
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 19:15
Originally posted by Slayertplsko Slayertplsko wrote:

It's the same kind of ______ (fill in the blank) that all nationalists produce. Just for fun, Some, check these sites:
http://www.carantha.net/the_vends_in_scandinavia.htm
http://www.veneti.info/en

These are Slovenian (thus Slavic) nationalist sites based on the works of Jožko Šavli and some other authors. I especially loved the centum-satem section on the latter, hilarious.Smile

Similar crap was written by a Czech (or Moravian) Antonín Horák. The book is called ''O Slovanech trochu jinak'' (literally: About Slavs a bit differently), where he claims that Slavs are original inhabitants of, in fact, the whole world and identifies various inscription from all around the world as proto-Slavic, claiming that their urheimat was at Pamir (which he claims to come from Pra-mir, which in Slavic languages means proto-world), and so on. Or for instance, the Greek placename Pylos is supposed to come from Slavic palác (palace), absolutely ignoring the fact that the word entered Slavic languages in early modern era from Italian.

I also saw somewhere a Magyar etymological dictionary, wherein every single word had Sumerian etymology.

Yet, many people believe these ______ (fill in the blank). Usually such people have no linguistic and very little historical knowledge, which makes them unable to distinguish between something scientifically proved or provable and the opposite.
 
Yes lol there are such super nationalist crap.. Yeah I once debated those who want to link Hungarian or Maygar to Sumerain and they hold on to there crap what so ever really.. much like Cyrus.
 
But they do give a good laugh I agree.
One thing I have allways taught is funny is how those who still has knows some info  make up consparicy theories against true linguistics and often trough false methods like cheap lexical compairasion and refusing to show evidence against them.
Once there was this Greek person who belived that all langauges in the world emerged from  Greek and  for a long time ago there those who taught Scandinavians came from Atlantis LOL
nad yes all the various slavic nationalist versions Smile
 
Well at least they have comedy valvue.
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Status: Offline
Points: 1064
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 19:21
It reminds me that comedy My Big Fat Greek Wedding, there was a Greek who claimed that ancient Greeks invented everything and every language sprung from Greek (yeah I remember that claim that Japanese kimono comes from Greek chimón ''cold'' - what will you do when you're cold? take on kimonoLOL). But, that really was a comedy, unlike those guys who are dead serious about it.
A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
Back to Top
Some View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian


Joined: 11-Nov-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 168
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 19:32
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Aelle, unfortunately the connections between north European peoples and Scythians or other Iranian peoples is already regarded as a dishonour, so it doesn't matter that you give numerous sources about it or not, they don't want to believe it. Almost all historical sources talk about a Scythian migration to the modern Germanic lands, whethee Bede the “Father of English History,” says it or anyone else, they think all historians were liars and truth is just something that they say, but what are their sources? Nothing!
 
So your defending pre ultra nationalist sourses? Well since your a super nationalist yourself it may be a stupid question.
 
But you serioulsy think one can trust sourse who claims that Saxons and  coming to Scania 6000 years ago BEFORE any IE tribes hade come to Europe ... seriously Cyrus... what is next are you going to presume that those who all langauges came Proto_Slavic are true al well?
 
Well one super nationalist like yourself seem to think another radical super nationalist are good sources.
Back to Top
Some View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian


Joined: 11-Nov-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 168
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 19:44
Originally posted by Slayertplsko Slayertplsko wrote:

It reminds me that comedy My Big Fat Greek Wedding, there was a Greek who claimed that ancient Greeks invented everything and every language sprung from Greek (yeah I remember that claim that Japanese kimono comes from Greek chimón ''cold'' - what will you do when you're cold? take on kimonoLOL). But, that really was a comedy, unlike those guys who are dead serious about it.
 
Yes true Smile I loved that movie . But there are seriously people who belive such a things.. and you cannot from my experience talk reason with them because they only see that as insult to there nationalist pride and will think one is insulting them.
And they are dead serious about it.. I forgot to mention the ultra Hindi-nationalists who belive all langauges came from Sanskrit LOL
 
All love from Some girl
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Status: Offline
Points: 1064
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 20:08
Yes they consider it insulting for some reason. And they (at least those here in Slovakia) keep rambling about Western/Germanic historiography that tries to steal the great Slavic peoples their history and so on....simply, they need some justification for their ignorance of sources/people whose arguments they can't refute - so they call it lies. Recently, I got a message on youtube: ''What kind of dick are you? For me, you're not Slovak...'' - I almost choked.
A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
Back to Top
beorna View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03-Dec-2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 552
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2009 at 23:04
Originally posted by Some Some wrote:

 
But you serioulsy think one can trust sourse who claims that Saxons and  coming to Scania 6000 years ago BEFORE any IE tribes hade come to Europe ... seriously Cyrus... what is next are you going to presume that those who all langauges came Proto_Slavic are true al well?
It is especially interesting because Cyrus told us that the Saxon/Sakan invasion was a younger one, perhaps 4th century AD. But if we look to all the turnings our Cyrus had made, then probably the Saka moved from somewhere to Skandinavia and from there to Saxon. BTW this would be better for him, because there was a migration from North to South, so he can put it in relation. Allthough we now have to answer the question how Scythians can come to Skane/Scandinavia before they existed, because the Scythian culture developed not before the 9th or 8th century BC. But I am sure he'll manage it.
I can only repeat myself. I see just two possibilities: a) Cyrus gets money for every posting or b) Cyrus is fooling us. There could be a c), but then I will be banned. sorry Cyrus.
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Status: Offline
Points: 3963
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 14:20
Originally posted by Some Some wrote:

 
Yes lol there are such super nationalist crap.. Yeah I once debated those who want to link Hungarian or Maygar to Sumerain and they hold on to there crap what so ever really.. much like Cyrus.
I just say for those who don't know, Some believes that Germanic peoples have more than 4500 years old history, and in this case they can be compared with just Sumerians, so she thinks like those who want to link Hungarian or Maygar to Sumerain, I want to make a connection between Persians or Scythians and the Germanic peoples, of course beorna says that  proto-Germanic came to exist in about the 6th century BC, in the period that Persians ruled almost the entire known world!
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Status: Offline
Points: 1064
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 15:21
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I just say for those who don't know, Some believes that Germanic peoples have more than 4500 years old history


Really?? Whence have you got that?

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

and in this case they can be compared with just Sumerians,


Who are you and what did you do to Cyrus, who has PhD in history?? Because you can't have. This is a fail in first grader's history what you've just said.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

so she thinks like those who want to link Hungarian or Maygar to Sumerain,


This is a ridiculous and childish attack, and it's a non sequitur.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

I want to make a connection between Persians or Scythians and the Germanic peoples,


Yes, you want, and that's the problem here, that you want the connection to be.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

of course beorna says that  proto-Germanic came to exist in about the 6th century BC,


Actually, he said around 600BC, you're pushing it further.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

in the period that Persians ruled almost the entire known world!


OK, you claimed to have a diploma in ancient Iranian history - I think you're a liar. Do you know why?? Because at the time that beorna stated, there was no Persian empire! There was Median empire, entirely in Asia! Even 100 years later, I don't see it even getting close to Scandinavia:


A ridiculous mistake for someone who claims to have PhD in history, so you either lie about your PhD or about history - but do you really think that you can fool anyone here?! This is not a Jonas Brothers Fans Forum, it's a history forum!


Edited by Slayertplsko - 14-Jan-2009 at 15:24
A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Status: Offline
Points: 3963
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 16:07
Slayertplsko, what can you do except to deny? I think someday you will deny even my own existence! Didn't Some say Germanic peoples came to scandinavia 4500 years ago? here
 
beorna said 600 BC which means early 6th century BC and I said "about the 6th century BC", is this a very big lie?!! or do you want also deny the existence of the Persian empire in this century?


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 14-Jan-2009 at 16:07
Back to Top
Some View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian


Joined: 11-Nov-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 168
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 16:46
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Slayertplsko, what can you do except to deny? I think someday you will deny even my own existence! Didn't Some say Germanic peoples came to scandinavia 4500 years ago? here
 
beorna said 600 BC which means early 6th century BC and I said "about the 6th century BC", is this a very big lie?!! or do you want also deny the existence of the Persian empire in this century?
 

Ugh gosh.. I have never said that they where Germanic they where just dialectal IE speaking tribes of the Corded Ware dialects they are the linguistics and cultural ancestors of Germanic but not Germanic themselves . Proto-Germanic is the late language that hade fully evolved Grimm’s and Verne’s Law before they started o branch to different dialects.

4500 came a migration to southern Scandinavia and it is also in parts in Scania and in Juteland where you cannot find pre IE or Pre-Germanic place names this does not mean that there where no cultures before them but the Pre-Germanic IE speakers lived there for so long that no traces of any other names are there.

Remember that nationally that exist back then and these people did not call themselves Germanic ,Germanic is just a linguistic term and late Proto-Germanic time is seen as the late Northern IE dialect of Europe or northern dialects in Scandinavia . that is what it is.. I have never said hat they where Germanic but they are ancestors linguistically to what we later call Proto-Germanic.

Get it?



Edited by Some - 14-Jan-2009 at 16:53
Back to Top
beorna View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03-Dec-2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 552
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 16:55
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Slayertplsko, what can you do except to deny? I think someday you will deny even my own existence! Didn't Some say Germanic peoples came to scandinavia 4500 years ago? here
 
beorna said 600 BC which means early 6th century BC and I said "about the 6th century BC", is this a very big lie?!! or do you want also deny the existence of the Persian empire in this century?
But I didn't say they migrated to Germania, they evolved within older groups and cultures. But there is no Scythian input in these regions.
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Status: Offline
Points: 1064
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 17:09
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

Slayertplsko, what can you do except to deny? I think someday you will deny even my own existence! Didn't Some say Germanic peoples came to scandinavia 4500 years ago? here


No, she didn't. Learn to read properly, this is ridiculous.
A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Status: Offline
Points: 1064
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 17:21
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

beorna said 600 BC which means early 6th century BC and I said "about the 6th century BC", is this a very big lie?!! or do you want also deny the existence of the Persian empire in this century?


Yes, 600BC is 6th century BC, but one should be careful with linking 'around 600BC' to '6th century BC' - this can lead to misunderstandings, just like the one you caused. There, of course, was Persian empire in the 6th century, but not around 600BC. You simply weren't precise enough.

Moreover, Persians never controlled any land near Jutland - the nearest they got was present-day Ukraine.

I don't know what to think...
A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
Back to Top
Slayertplsko View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2008
Location: Slovakia
Status: Offline
Points: 1064
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 17:35
Originally posted by Some Some wrote:

Remember that nationally that exist back then and these people did not call themselves Germanic ,Germanic is just a linguistic term and late Proto-Germanic time is seen as the late Northern IE dialect of Europe or northern dialects in Scandinavia . that is what it is.. I have never said hat they where Germanic but they are ancestors linguistically to what we later call Proto-Germanic.


Good remark. Perhaps I could add a few things.

We don't know how they called themselves in early 1st millennium BC, we just know that Germanic speakers later called themselves thiudisk, perhaps earlier also sweboz. But there is no reason to conclude that with the Grimm's and Verner's law they 'suddenly' changed their endonym.

When High German evolved from Ingvaeonic, the people didn't change its endonym, it remained thiudisk (a few centuries later the form slightly changed to diutisc), and it's in fact the same to this day. When Slovak language emerged in the 10th century, the people didn't change its endonym - they still considered themselves Slavs and the endonym remained sloveni (Slovák is a later variant that finds its place in the name for a masculine member of Slovak nation only), which means Slavs.
A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
Back to Top
Some View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian


Joined: 11-Nov-2008
Status: Offline
Points: 168
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Some Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2009 at 19:31
Originally posted by Slayertplsko Slayertplsko wrote:

Originally posted by Some Some wrote:

Remember that nationally that exist back then and these people did not call themselves Germanic ,Germanic is just a linguistic term and late Proto-Germanic time is seen as the late Northern IE dialect of Europe or northern dialects in Scandinavia . that is what it is.. I have never said hat they where Germanic but they are ancestors linguistically to what we later call Proto-Germanic.


Good remark. Perhaps I could add a few things.

We don't know how they called themselves in early 1st millennium BC, we just know that Germanic speakers later called themselves thiudisk, perhaps earlier also sweboz. But there is no reason to conclude that with the Grimm's and Verner's law they 'suddenly' changed their endonym.

When High German evolved from Ingvaeonic, the people didn't change its endonym, it remained thiudisk (a few centuries later the form slightly changed to diutisc), and it's in fact the same to this day. When Slovak language emerged in the 10th century, the people didn't change its endonym - they still considered themselves Slavs and the endonym remained sloveni (Slovák is a later variant that finds its place in the name for a masculine member of Slovak nation only), which means Slavs.
 
True Smile
 
What I meant to tell Cyrus is that what we call Proto-Germanic or even Germanic is the   the late north IE langauge of northen Europe Grimms law and Verners law did not take a day.. so when they talk about the langauge where verners or grimms alw hade fully evolved they talk about Pre-Germanic or Early Germanic or even Germanic Parent langauge is something I have also heard of  that talks about the earlier stages of the langaugeWink  How ever the first IE speaking people in Scandinavia just spoke an IE dialect.
 
What Cyrus cannot or do not wish to understand is there a diffrent from being anchestors to Germanic than being Germanic.
 
Cause consonants shifts,Accent shift,Vowel shifts,some inflection reduction verbal system alteration etc and so must take generations..
 
All love Smile
 
 
 


Edited by Some - 14-Jan-2009 at 19:34
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Status: Offline
Points: 3963
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2009 at 08:46
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

It is especially interesting because Cyrus told us that the Saxon/Sakan invasion was a younger one, perhaps 4th century AD.
 
You asked "the Saxon name appears at least in the middle of the 4th century AC. Did they came later?" and I answered "Yes"
 
I have to to post it here too, you cerainly know Alans: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans as you see there is a map which shows the migration of Alans in 4th century AD from the region which was certainly known as "Saksin" to the western Germany and other parts of Europe:

Saksin/Saqsin was changed to Sarai (capital city of the Golden Horde) in just 13th century:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarai_(city) : Mongol ruler Batu Khan is credited with building the city in the mid-1240s on the site of Saqsin
 
 
Would you please believe the historical facts?
 
If you are interested to know more about Saksins who were also known as Saxi, please read this book: "The Mongol Mission"
 
Of course I hope you also read the footnotes, when you read it!
 
"Now as the Friars traversed Comania they had on their right the land of the Saxi, whom we believe to be Goths and who are Christians: next the Alans who are Christians and then the Guzari [Khazars] who are likewise Christian. In their country is situated Ornas, 4 a rich city which the Tartars captured by flooding it with water. After, the Circassians, and they are Christians. And finally the Georgians, also Christians. "
 
1 According to Benedict the Pole (infra, p. 80), the Saxi were the Goths who still survived in the Crimea at this period, but the list of peoples given in The Secret History of the Mongols (section 262) suggests that they were the Chechen of the Caucasus (Sas or Sasoun).
 
Where was/is Sasoun?
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasun Historically the area was known as Sasun, part of the historical Armenian highland.
 
The best land in Armenia, yes?
 
"The Sacae (Scythians) acquired possession of the best land in Armenia, which they left named after themselves, Sacasene;" (Strabo, Geography: 11.8.1: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Strab.+11.8.4 )


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 15-Jan-2009 at 08:57
Back to Top
beorna View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03-Dec-2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 552
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 12:13
So here two, yellow Alans, blue Vandals, red Suebians.
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Status: Offline
Points: 3963
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2009 at 19:53
Ok, thanks, but it doesn't change that historical fact.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 42434445>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.