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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2006 at 04:02
I am curious about this new point.

Edited by sirius99 - 23-Oct-2006 at 16:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2006 at 06:38
Originally posted by sirius99 sirius99 wrote:

If it is correct that old norse talk about "sakser" or sakland which become saxon it is clear for me that there is some connection. I know my father is from a mountainous town in north of Iran and people in that town have an special language that is very close to old avestan and old persian. the name of town in several centries ago was Sakser ...

Quit it there. I've never seen the form "Sakser" before (it might be modern Norwegian though); -er is actualy a modern Scandinavian suffix indicating a people, eg zuluer, kineser, amerikaner, greker, ester etc. Saxland means land of the Saxons and was a common form - Bretland, Valland, Blåland, Särkland etc. The Old Norse form (and the modern Swe. too, btw) of Saxons was Saxar and -ar is just another common suffix for a people (eg modern Swedish ryssar, tyskar, danskar etc). Sax means a one-egged sword (or a scissor - think of how they look) - just as the Franks the Saxon confederation was named after their typical weapon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2006 at 16:16

Quote Well, first of all, Persian should be closer to old European languages since the new ones have been moving away since the common root for an additional 1000+ years. Further, only a few words does not prove anything, you need to look at syntax, grammar, all kinds of things.

If you look at these words carefully then you will see that the similarity is really huge, each word has many things to say.

am, I am (it means the subject can be ignored in both languages)
aelan, to burn (in both languages instead of "to" the suffix "-an" is used to indicate that the verb is in the infinitive.)
...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 18:52
The adherents of the Saka theory point out that the burial customs of the Scythians and the Vikings show certain similarities. Furthermore, the Old English chroniclers write that when the Saxons invaded England ca. 400 AD together with the Angli, they "sent back to Scythia for reinforcements". The implication is that the Saxons considered themselves to be Scythians -- the name having traveled with them even though they were far away from the region the Greeks had labelled "Scythia". However, the chroniclers have most probably taken over the name Scythia and its somewhat imprecise usage from the Latin literature; Scythia was identified with Sweden because of a superficial similarity of the two names (due to the fact that Scythia was pronounced [sitia] in Medieval Latin).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saka
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 04:19
Originally posted by sirius99 sirius99 wrote:

The adherents of the Saka theory point out that the burial customs of the Scythians and the Vikings show certain similarities. Furthermore, the Old English chroniclers write that when the Saxons invaded England ca. 400 AD together with the Angli, they "sent back to Scythia for reinforcements". The implication is that the Saxons considered themselves to be Scythians -- the name having traveled with them even though they were far away from the region the Greeks had labelled "Scythia". However, the chroniclers have most probably taken over the name Scythia and its somewhat imprecise usage from the Latin literature; Scythia was identified with Sweden because of a superficial similarity of the two names (due to the fact that Scythia was pronounced [sitia] in Medieval Latin).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saka
 
Nice wiki quote, now how about thinking yourself?
 

Unfortunately, the wikisite does not say which source mentions Scythia, which is a pity, because it must be one I've never seen before, and I'm pretty sure I saw them all... 

 
I have the Anglo Saxon chronicle right here on my desk, and by 449 it says: 'They then send to the Angeln, bidding them send more help.' In Anglo-Saxon: 'Hi ða sende to Angle 7 heton heom sendan mare fultum'

 

Two lines further, it says 'Those men came fron three tribes of Germany; from the Old-Saxons, from the Angeles, from the Jutes.' In Anglo-Saxon: 'Þa comon þa menn of þrim mægþum Germanie, of Ealdseaxum, of Anglum, of Iotum'

 

 

In Bede it says:

'Then the nation of the Angles, or Saxons, being invited by the aforesaid king, arrived in Britain with three long ships, and had a place assigned them to reside in by the same king, in the eastern part of the island, that they might thus appear to be fighting for their country, whilst their real intentions were to enslave it.'

 

and

 

'Those who came over were of the three most powerful nations of Germany ­Saxons, Angles, and Jutes.'

 

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/bede-book1.html

 

And Gildas says:

'Then all the councillors, together with that proud tyrant Gurthrigern [Vortigern], the British king, were so blinded, that, as a protection to their country, they sealed its doom by inviting in among them (like wolves into the sheep-fold), the fierce and impious Saxons, a race hateful both to God and men, to repel the invasions of the northern nations.'

 

(LOL Gildas did not much like the Saxons...)

 

'Their mother-land, finding her first brood thus successful, sends forth a larger company of her wolfish offspring, which sailing over, join themselves to their bastard-born comrades.'

 

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/gildas-full.html

 

 

Anyway, whatever source Wiki used, you should really read it before copy-pasting it without comment. I do not know what you were trying to prove, but even the Wiki-Article clearly rejects the theory as far-fetched.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 10:15

Well done, another incessant nonsense put to rest.  I wonder what drives such disrespectful fabrications which evidently lead the more naive astray? 

 
I think I just answred my own question.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 10:39
Here is the part of the Wiki-article directly following the above quote:

Originally posted by wiki wiki wrote:

According to some traditions, the Saka race, with an affiliated tribe under a different name, migrated to the area of the Baltic Sea, and supposedly gave rise to the Saxon tribe in the area of present day Germany. This claim was cited in favour of Nazi claims that Germans were "original descendants of the Aryan race". However, contemporary philologists have rejected this notion, questioning the archaeological evidence for major cultural contacts between anyone in Uzbekistan or Iran, and the Baltic area. Nevertheless, many Germans believe that there was a connection between people in Central Asia and their own ancestors who were migrants from the East.

Paul Pezon supports this theory, claiming that the Saka Scythians and the seemingly related Cimmerians were ultimately ancestors to the Celts and Germans, and that the Germans fled the Baltic area when it was flooded by the rising sea level after the Ice age. He believes that the German tribe Cimbri have descended from a branch of the Cimmerians.

It must emphasised that most philologists studying the Germanic languages disagree with this hypothesis. There is a distant relationship between the Iranic Saka and the Germanic people due to the fact that both speak Indo-European languages. Their common forefathers, or better: the people speaking the proto-language which gave rise to Germanic and Iranian probably lived somewhere near the Black Sea. However, the two languages have nothing in common in addition to their common origin, and therefore the contact between them must have terminated at an early stage.

So apparently the whole idea for this connection came from the Nazi's. Now they are a really nice example on how not to conduct lingusitical and anthropological research.


Edited by Aelfgifu - 24-Oct-2006 at 10:39

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 12:11
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Cyrus Shahmiri wrote:

If you look at these words carefully then you will see that the similarity is really huge, each word has many things to say.

am, I am (it means the subject can be ignored in both languages)
aelan, to burn (in both languages instead of "to" the suffix "-an" is used to indicate that the verb is in the infinitive.)
...

What says the subject can be ignored in both cases? I don't know enough Saxon to say anything about it. Suffixes instead of 'to' is common among Germanic languages - in fact English is the language that deviates, Gothic, Scandinavian (using -a or -e), Icelandic, German (where the suffix -en is used) all does that.
 
I could do the same with modern Swedish as well:
blad, fruit, the blade. blad, blade
bered, vexed. beredd, prepared/awaiting
breost, the breast. bröst, breast.
beard, a beard. bard, a beard(O.Sw)
blowan, to flower. blomma, to flower.
bidan, to expect, to await. bida, to expect, to await.
bend, a bond. band, a bond.
bendan, to bind. binda, to bind.
byan, to inhabit. bygga, to inhabit.
mona, the moon. månen(dial. måna), the moon.
moder, mother. moder, mother.
mara, the night-mare. mara, the night-mare.
mani, many. många, many..
morther, murder. mord, murder.
mus, a mouse. mus, a mouse.
naegl, a nail. nagel, a nail.
nafel, the navel. navel, the navel.
nu, now nu, now
lam, lame.
 
I could go on with the whole list, but the table I copied didn't allow more. What does this prove then? Clearly, this is closer than the Persian. However, the answer is that is proves nothing, except that Swedish and Saxon as well as Persian are related languages with a common past. It doesn't say ANYTHING about the history of the peoples. There is no way you can say Saxons came from Persian deduced from this, no more than you can claim Persians are in fact descendants from a bunch of Swedes who wanted more sun and travelled south.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 15:30
LOL it can be vise versa bunch of persian who scaped from sun burn to cold montain of sweden.
 
Any way I was thinking maybe there is a conection closer than Indo-european seperation between Saka and Saxon ( not german and persian). about that article from wiki I wasn't sure becuase there is no source for that in wiki, so I thought other people can help us about that.


Edited by sirius99 - 24-Oct-2006 at 15:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 18:21
Originally posted by sirius99 sirius99 wrote:

LOL it can be vise versa bunch of persian who scaped from sun burn to cold montain of sweden.
 
Yep, that's the point; it doesn't prove anything :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 01:35
It proves a common origin of culture. That imminently includes cross-continental relationships, which in turn indicates genetical relationships.
 
Which narrows the question down to WHERE this area of (common) origin existed. The dating of Eurasian setlements - from Hispanà to the Himalayas - should reveal some clues...?!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 05:55
Originally posted by Boreasi Boreasi wrote:

It proves a common origin of culture. That imminently includes cross-continental relationships, which in turn indicates genetical relationships.
 
No it doesn't prove a common origin and definitely not a genetical relationship. Does the Afro-Americans have genetical ties to Edward the Confessor's England just because they speak or spoke both English?
 
In any case you missed my point: what some are trying to imply here is that the Saxons were not Germanic, but Persian, which the linguistical arguments doesn't support at all - that was my point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote think Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 09:00
The Blacks speak English because of where they were situated.


Edited by think - 28-Oct-2006 at 09:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 15:20

Quote no more than you can claim Persians are in fact descendants from a bunch of Swedes who wanted more sun and travelled south.

Iranians themselves have always believed that their oiginal land was too cold because it has been clearly mentioned in Avesta.

The first of the good lands and countries which I, Ahura Mazda, created, was the Airyana Vaeja (Land of Aryans), by the Vanguhi Daitya.
Thereupon came Angra Mainyu (Ahriman/Satan), who is all death, and he counter-created the serpent in the river and Winter, a work of the Daevas.
There are ten winter months there, two summer months; and those are cold for the waters, cold for the earth, cold for the trees. Winter falls there, the worst of all plagues. [Hum 35: "Ten are there the winter months, two the summer months, and even then [in summer] the waters are freezing, the earth is freezing, the plants are freezing; there is the center of winter, there is the heart of winter, there winter rushes around, there (occur) most damages caused by storm."]
The second of the good lands and countries which I, Ahura Mazda, created, was the plain which the Sughdhas inhabit (Sogdiana/Central Asia).
Thereupon came Angra Mainyu, who is all death, and he counter-created the locust, which brings death unto cattle and plants.
... [other 14 lands and countries]

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 20:57
It probably mentions siberia or somewhere in north of caspian sea.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote think Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 05:27
Say Iranians were an ethnic group that moved south, how long ago would that have been ?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 12:40
It is not clear, probably around 3800-4200 yaers ago of course just based on the archaeological and linguistic evidences.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 08:30
Cyrus,
 
Quote; "There are ten winter months there, two summer months; and those are cold for the waters, cold for the earth, cold for the trees."
 
This climate does not exist anymore in Eurasia. Not even at Spitzbergen, the northernmost habitat in the world, do we find a summer shorter than 4 months. Doesn't that prove that this Avesta-story are basicly fantasy - or?!
 
Another possible explanation is the one the old sayings actually refer to the real origin of the Sakas, Bactrians and old Persians - in the land "behind the northern wind" - at a time when the shores of the Baltic Ocean and the White Sea are kept open of ice. In 1998 they discovered the remains of such a culture inside the Baltic region and the White Sea, already 40.000 years ago. The last discoveries from southern Finland even says that there have been human populations there already 72.000 years BP...
 
 
 
Styrbjorn,
 
Please check some basic Norse litterature. Snorre Sturlasson is full of "Saks-land" and "Saksere".  Also check the stories about "Atle" and the Huns ("Huner") - that arrived in western Europe to help chase the Roman forces out of Northern Eurasia. The Norse scriptures call them "Budlunger" too. (Means; "Messengers"/"Sent for").
 
Today we understand that these people were Caucasians, which is the overall point here - as we compare Saxons and Schytians. We also know that Attila and the Huns came from Russia/Ucraine/Georgia - i.e. from the areas that the Greeks described as "Schytia"....
 
Attila made Buda-pest his stronghold during this lifelong enteprise. The Hungarian population have both an etnic and cultural heritage that confirm their ties to the indigenous tribes of eastern Eurasia, namely the Fenno-Ugrians. Before the Greek/Slav expansion northwards - the entire area of greater Russia all belonged to a Fenno-Ugrian culture.
 
Consequently the Scytians and Saxons have paralell histories - as neigbours and trading-partners. The Eurasian civilisations were all basicly Caucasian, even if they deveolped characteristically different languages - where the "Fenno-Ugric" populated the east, while the "German" (Celt, etc.) inhabitted western Europe. Since these major borders still separate "east" and "west" we may understand that the Schytian as the Saxons have been populating the eastern resp. western hemisphere of Eurasia over the last a 10.000 years. 
 
Thus there is no reason - per se - to disbelive the stories that tells of Saxons that at some point have moved into a part of Anatolia, to repopulate an rebuild areas that have been depopulated due to natural or political/social disasters. We have paralell stories about tribe after tribe of  Celts, Van-dals, Berbers and Goths that went out of Scandinavia.  So, why not some Saxons - who were Europes master-farmers in their time?
 
If you look really close you will find that neither Swedes,  Danes nor Germans share the exactly same gene-pool. Abymore.  But the outrigth paralells of genetics, culture and constitutional laws does prove that they have shared a common origin - as the first group of Homo S.s. acutally managed to adapt to the conditions of ice-time. As this adaption became genetic we had the first "caucasians", who developed highly specific features in response to the cold and dark time of ice-time. The origin of these "proto-Eurasians" are found in the Baltic region, where traces of 36.000 years old habitats have been found.
 
Only this adaption - achieved over hundreds of generation, under the isolation of ice-time - can explain the incredibly rapid spread these people could produce - populating the entire northern hemisphere in less than 300 years.  One should add that they started immediatly after ice-time - and they manage to spread all the eay from the Pyrenees to the great wall, south of Manchuria.  Which means that they walked out of ice-time fully adapted, highly skilled and well equipped to cultivate the harsh nature of the arctic climate-zone - even on the barren lands of post-glacial Eurasia.
 
 
 
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Boreasi - 02-Nov-2006 at 08:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 08:20
Originally posted by Boreasi Boreasi wrote:

Styrbjorn,
 
Please check some basic Norse litterature. Snorre Sturlasson is full of "Saks-land" and "Saksere".  Also check the stories about "Atle" and the Huns ("Huner") - that arrived in western Europe to help chase the Roman forces out of Northern Eurasia. The Norse scriptures call them "Budlunger" too. (Means; "Messengers"/"Sent for").
 
Today we understand that these people were Caucasians, which is the overall point here - as we compare Saxons and Schytians. We also know that Attila and the Huns came from Russia/Ucraine/Georgia - i.e. from the areas that the Greeks described as "Schytia"....
 
 
 
"Saksere" is modern Norwegian. Reread my post, I never said they didn't mention the name, just that 'saxar' is the Old Norse variant.  Buðlung doesn't actually mean anything, since it's a dynastic name akin to Yngling, Skjöldung etc. The only reason I mentioned it in the first place was that it "convinced" someone there was a connection because there was a place called "Sakser".
 
I think you misunderstand a bit what the Saxons really were - I suggest reading Sharrukin's posts again. The Huns came to Europe several centuries after the Saxon federation was mentioned the first time.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 03-Nov-2006 at 08:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 12:50
Quote Cyrus,
 
Quote; "There are ten winter months there, two summer months; and those are cold for the waters, cold for the earth, cold for the trees."
 
This climate does not exist anymore in Eurasia. Not even at Spitzbergen, the northernmost habitat in the world, do we find a summer shorter than 4 months. Doesn't that prove that this Avesta-story are basicly fantasy - or?!
 
Not fantasy, but there is obviously exaggeration, however we don't know their definition of "Winter", it has also been mentioned that the longest night of the year at Winter solstice, the birthday of Mithra (God of Light and Sun), is 18 hours long, there was no reason to lie, it shows there was really a long winter.
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