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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2009 at 16:59
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Noone defends infanticide. It´s a typical argument defending exploitation of the indigenous peoples by

refering to such things.

.

 

LOL... you guys are famous for promote abortion. What's the difference with infanticide?

 

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Yes literacy is becoming more common in indigenous peoples, that is why they can make their voices heard

and reach out for international support. The exploitation and land robbery cannot be kept a

secret anymore.

 

Land robbery has never been a secret. Exist since the first European arrived to the Americas.

In fact, the name "robber" is commonly used for outsiders by both Sioux, and Mapuches.

Now, with such pedigree of robbing how come you suggest we should accept European interference?

 

"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2009 at 17:07
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Many times the talk of "assimilating" indigenous peoles is just a smoke screen in order to rob them of their land and send them away to some slum somewhere.
 
Maybe this is the things that the indigenous peoples are supposed to be assimilated to:
 
Your anti-Brazilian biass is amazing.
 
Do you really believe you know it better because you are European? God!

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2009 at 17:15
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 

LOL... you guys are famous for promote abortion. What's the difference with infanticide?

 

If you don´t understand the difference between a child and an embryo than it maybe

hard to explain to you.

 

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  

Land robbery has never been a secret. Exist since the first European arrived to the Americas.

In fact, the name "robber" is commonly used for outsiders by both Sioux, and Mapuches.

Now, with such pedigree of robbing how come you suggest we should accept European interference.

 

Once upon the time the Latin Americans declared themselves independant of Europe.

Still their land robbery against the indigenous

peoples continued and have over time even increased. The international solidarity organisations

doesn´t participate in any land robbery. Instead they are asked by the indigenous peoples 

for help to fight land robbery and other forms of exploitation.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2009 at 20:59
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

[ 

If you don´t understand the difference between a child and an embryo than it maybe

hard to explain to you.

 

No. I don't understand the difference: they are both human beings.

 

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  Once upon the time the Latin Americans declared themselves independant of Europe.

Still their land robbery against the indigenous

peoples continued and have over time even increased. The international solidarity organisations

doesn´t participate in any land robbery. Instead they are asked by the indigenous peoples 

for help to fight land robbery and other forms of exploitation.

 

 

I wonder why Brazil is so patient with these clowns, and doesn't deport more "go-dooers". If you guy try it in my country, you'll be kicked off.

 

"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 05:44
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

No. I don't understand the difference: they are both human beings.

 

 

Oh yeah, then maybe every sperm is sacred too :-)

 

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 

I wonder why Brazil is so patient with these clowns, and doesn't deport more "go-dooers". If you guy try it in my country, you'll be kicked off.

 

 

Because Brasil maybe also want to be a part of the international community.

 

It´s strange how many Latin Americans complain a lot over Europe and international solidarity. But when there are some

political problem in some Latin American countries there are a lot of them fleing to Europe.

For example during Pinochet in Chile time tens of thousands of refugees went to Sweden. And we also have

refugees from Peru, Bolivia, Brasil, Colombia, Argentina, Equador, Paraguay and you name it. When these people

needed Europe (including Sweden) then Europe was not so bad after all. But if some people from Europe happens

to critizise crimes against the indigenous populations in Latin America then there is a big outcry of indignation.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 13:31
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Oh yeah, then maybe every sperm is sacred too :-)

 

 

I see that you don't understand it at all. And with those ideas you want to preach moral values. You make me recall the classical Spanish saying "don't preach the Gospels with the zipper open" LOL 

 

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 Because Brasil maybe also want to be a part of the international community.

 

Brazil is part of the international community.

 

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

It´s strange how many Latin Americans complain a lot over Europe and international solidarity. But when there are some

political problem in some Latin American countries there are a lot of them fleing to Europe.

 

 

The complain is with Europe intervention in the Americas. After all, communism was an European invention, wasn't? Fascism was also an European invention! And were those germs and the dissease that caused in Latin America the cause of the refugees we sent to Europe.

Now, don't cry too much for refugees. We have received dozens of millions of European refugees in the Americas, too, and we don't complain.

 

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

For example during Pinochet in Chile time tens of thousands of refugees went to Sweden. And we also have

refugees from Peru, Bolivia, Brasil, Colombia, Argentina, Equador, Paraguay and you name it. When these people

needed Europe (including Sweden) then Europe was not so bad after all.

 

 

That's true.

 

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

But if some people from Europe happens

to critizise crimes against the indigenous populations in Latin America then there is a big outcry of indignation.

 

 

It is not the crimes against the indigenous what Latin Americans complain. We complain about those topics as well, and fight to fixed up.

What we complain is for patronizing. Also for stereotyping such as "all Latinos are corrupt". "All are mean and don't care". "All live in favelas".

 

Of course, when extremists like the ETA want to start indigenous revolts with our natives, we don't complain but jail them or deport.

The same for Europeans that came here to export drugs, or to bring extasis.

 

 

 

"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 17:45
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 

I see that you don't understand it at all. And with those ideas you want to preach moral values. You make me recall the classical Spanish saying "don't preach the Gospels with the zipper open" LOL 

    

 

Maybe my mind is not clouded by 500 years of catholic propaganda

 

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 

Brazil is part of the international community.   

  

  

Yes than they just ought to act like that too.

 

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 

The complain is with Europe intervention in the Americas. After all, communism was an European invention, wasn't? Fascism was also an European invention! And were those germs and the dissease that caused in Latin America the cause of the refugees we sent to Europe.

Now, don't cry too much for refugees. We have received dozens of millions of European refugees in the Americas, too, and we don't complain.

 

  

The thing is that Latin American countries are partly a product of Europes intervention in

 the American continent.  (unfortunately for the indigenous peoples). And many ideas from old
Europe still lives there, among other the colonial mentality that makes people over there think
they just can invade and exploit indigenous land.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

It is not the crimes against the indigenous what Latin Americans complain. We complain about those topics as well, and fight to fixed up.

What we complain is for patronizing. Also for stereotyping such as "all Latinos are corrupt". "All are mean and don't care". "All live in favelas".

 
 

 

Noones said all Latin Americans are corrupt evel or live in Favelas.

Some people are like that and some people live in Favelas too. It´s just a fact.

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 

Of course, when extremists like the ETA want to start indigenous revolts with our natives, we don't complain but jail them or deport.

The same for Europeans that came here to export drugs, or to bring extasis.

 

The protests against the Xingu dam is hardly a work of ETA. It´s just people who don´t want to have their homes and lives destroyed

and drowned by a huge dam.

 

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 18:07
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...

Maybe my mind is not clouded by 500 years of catholic propaganda

  
 
I am agnostic, thanks. But I can see the problem you have with the zipper LOL.
 

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...

Yes than they just ought to act like that too.

 
  
 
They do. 
 

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...

The thing is that Latin American countries are partly a product of Europes intervention in

 the American continent.  (unfortunately for the indigenous peoples). And many ideas from old
Europe still lives there, among other the colonial mentality that makes people over there think
they just can invade and exploit indigenous land.
  
 
We are free. It has costed us a lot of blood, humilliations and suffering to achieve that. We don't need the advice of our former masters.
And with respect to old Europe, indeed we find that today Europe is in decadence, that has lost its spirit and its values. Hardly an example to follow anymore.
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...

Noones said all Latin Americans are corrupt evel or live in Favelas.

Some people are like that and some people live in Favelas too. It´s just a fact.

 
 

 

Aren't any poors in Europe. I have seen certain reports on the way people live in the poor neighbours of Italy, France or Neetherlands that could scare anyone.

 

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...

The protests against the Xingu dam is hardly a work of ETA. It´s just people who don´t want to have their homes and lives destroyed

and drowned by a huge dam.

 
If that the case, why don't you better fool around with China?
 
 
 
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 20:51
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I am agnostic, thanks. But I can see the problem you have with the zipper LOL.
  
 
Better take care of the children that are born than get hunged up about fetuses.
 

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
They do. 
 
 
 
Not everyone in Brazil do.
 

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
We are free. It has costed us a lot of blood, humilliations and suffering to achieve that. We don't need the advice of our former masters.
And with respect to old Europe, indeed we find that today Europe is in decadence, that has lost its spirit and its values. Hardly an example to follow anymor

 
 

 

International solidarity is global. Not only Europeans react against injustices against indigenous peoples

in America and other parts of the world.

 

 

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Aren't any poors in Europe. I have seen certain reports on the way people live in the poor neighbours of Italy,

France or Neetherlands that could scare anyone.

  

 

There are problems everywhere, that doesn´t free Brasil from any responsibility in their actions

against indigenous people.

 

 

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

If that the case, why don't you better fool around with China?

 
 

 

There are many of us that protest against that too.

 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 21:08
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...
 Better take care of the children that are born than get hunged up about fetuses.
  
 
You don't see your inconsistencies, do you? You are like those countries that talk about freedom and invade others. Or talk and human rights and that still have death penalty in place. Or those others that talk about protection of the children in Africa and promote eutanasia.
Or those others that feed the poors children of Africa and promote abortion at home. Or those that talk about environment and kill whales. Or those that talk about humanism and trade with radioactive waste!
Nope Sir. If you wish to preach morals you should check it out your zipper IS close.
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 21:23
Hey folks, the theme of this history forum is "Empires" and within the general consensus of modern diplomacy and precepts of the United Nations, non-intervention in the internal affairs of duly constituted states is a sine qua non. Yes, there are fancy phrases such as the old Wilsonian "self-determination of peoples" but, in the real world the clash of social and economic interests raise many phantoms. Given this Media driven age, many an advocacy group appoints itself the guardians against their particular devils regardless of whether there are in place political mechanism addressing abuses. Often, these critics adopt patronizing attitudes and shape evil stereotypes or proclaim catastrophe for personal profit. In many ways, most modern advocacy groups generate "cash cows" on whose teats feed a myriad of professionals who shape lucrative professions on the backs of the helpless. Let us call them secular missionaries embarked upon international "conversion". Many, have other political objectives as well and the present discussion provides an excellent example of convergence between ecologists, global warming fanatics, and social scientists, who believe their notions are to come before the immediate problems faced by a larger society. In terms of European intellectuals this phenomenon is hardly new since that continent has a long history of knowing "what's best" for everyone else.
 
In the context of economic and social problems facing the Brazilian government (and here we are not confronting some out-of-the-way hell hole), one must keep in mind that we are addressing a nation with an estimated 200 million people. Metropolitan Sao Paulo has more people within its bounds than all of Sweden combined! Since the 1950s, Brazilians have clearly understood that the social and economic integrity of their nation depends entirely upon the proper development of all their resources. But, suddenly, they are now confronting groups that in many ways wish to turn two-thirds of their national territory into some form of wilderness preserve! Toward that end these gropus latch onto all type of exaggerations and reach fro historical stereotypes suitable for whatever campaign they mount for the moment. Sorry folks, but the protection of isolated Amerinds does pre-date the appearance of both Sting and Bono on the world stage and the maintenance of ecological balance concerned Brazilians long before people croaked about Rain Forests and Carbon sinks. One need only peruse the pages of the many reports by scientists at the Instituto Brasileiro de Geografia e Estadistica going back to the 1930s to grasp this fact. Nevertheless, many European and American "intellectuals" find it difficult to recognize their own paternalistic hubris when discussing Brazil. Further, out of ignorance they coflate entirely different situations and project horror stories of exploitation premised upon isolated Amerinds and others with long histories of contact and aculturation.
 
These new advocates of the infamous 19th century Amerindian "reservations" in North America--or modern day life upon these tracts within the United States--have no real understanding of what they are wishing for...


Edited by drgonzaga - 20-May-2009 at 21:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 21:26
Originally posted by pinguin<SPAN lang=EN-GB style=FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-: EN-GB; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-: SV; mso-bidi-: AR-SA><NOBR>
<DIV><NOBR>You don't see your inconsistencies, do you? You are like those countries that talk about freedom and invade others. Or talk and human rights and that still have death penalty in place. Or those others that talk about protection of the children in Africa and promote eutanasia.<OBR></DIV>
<DIV><NOBR>Or those others that feed the poors children of Africa and promote abortion at home. Or those that talk about environment and kill whales. Or those that talk about humanism and trade with radioactive waste!<OBR></DIV>
<DIV><NOBR>Nope Sir. If you wish to preach morals you should check it out your zipper <strong>IS</strong> close.<OBR></DIV></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-GB style=mso-ansi-: EN-GB><FONT size=3><FONT face=Times New Roman><NOBR>
<DIV><OBR></FONT></FONT></SPAN><NOBR><OBR> [/QUOTE pinguin
You don't see your inconsistencies, do you? You are like those countries that talk about freedom and invade others. Or talk and human rights and that still have death penalty in place. Or those others that talk about protection of the children in Africa and promote eutanasia.
Or those others that feed the poors children of Africa and promote abortion at home. Or those that talk about environment and kill whales. Or those that talk about humanism and trade with radioactive waste!
Nope Sir. If you wish to preach morals you should check it out your zipper IS close.
 [/QUOTE wrote:

 
As stated, fetuses is a part of the womans body, if she want to keep it or not is up to her, not for
others to descide based upon superstition emanating from the church.
 
As stated, fetuses is a part of the womans body, if she want to keep it or not is up to her, not for
others to descide based upon superstition emanating from the church.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 21:31
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin<SPAN style=FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN-GB; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-: SV; mso-bidi-: AR-SA lang=EN-GB><NOBR> 
<DIV><NOBR>You don't see your inconsistencies, do you? You are like those countries that talk about freedom and invade others. Or talk and human rights and that still have death penalty in place. Or those others that talk about protection of the children in Africa and promote eutanasia.<OBR></DIV>
<DIV><NOBR>Or those others that feed the poors children of Africa and promote abortion at home. Or those that talk about environment and kill whales. Or those that talk about humanism and trade with radioactive waste!<OBR></DIV>
<DIV><NOBR>Nope Sir. If you wish to preach morals you should check it out your zipper <strong>IS</strong> close.<OBR></DIV></SPAN><SPAN style=mso-ansi-: EN-GB lang=EN-GB><FONT size=3><FONT face=Times New Roman><NOBR>
<DIV><OBR></FONT></FONT></SPAN><NOBR><OBR> </td></tr></table> <OBR></DIV>
<DIV><NOBR><OBR> </DIV>
<DIV><NOBR>As stated, fetuses is a part of the womans body, if she want to keep it or not is up to her, not for <OBR></DIV>
<DIV><NOBR>others to descide based upon superstition emanating from the church.[/QUOTE pinguin
You don't see your inconsistencies, do you? You are like those countries that talk about freedom and invade others. Or talk and human rights and that still have death penalty in place. Or those others that talk about protection of the children in Africa and promote eutanasia.
Or those others that feed the poors children of Africa and promote abortion at home. Or those that talk about environment and kill whales. Or those that talk about humanism and trade with radioactive waste!
Nope Sir. If you wish to preach morals you should check it out your zipper IS close.
 
 
As stated, fetuses is a part of the womans body, if she want to keep it or not is up to her, not for
others to descide based upon superstition emanating from the church.[/QUOTE wrote:

 
Gee, Carcharodon, I did not know that Hypocrates condemned abortion because it was a superstition emanating from the church?
 
Gee, Carcharodon, I did not know that Hypocrates condemned abortion because it was a superstition emanating from the church?
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Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
Gee, Carcharodon, I did not know that Hypocrates condemned abortion because it was a
superstition emanating from the church?
 
Hippocrates was a product of his time, even more ancient than the church.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 21:37
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...
As stated, fetuses is a part of the womans body, if she want to keep it or not is up to her, not for
others to descide based upon superstition emanating from the church.
 
If you think that way, why don't let Indians continue killing theirs babies?
From your comment, it is very clear to me that you have not much worthly to teach.
After all, you stated your own supersticion in the above paragraph, that I remarked LOL.
 
Keep the zipper close. Or, as the Spanish sayings goes: flies don't enter in closed mouths. Or, by the mouth the fish dies. 
 


Edited by pinguin - 20-May-2009 at 21:38
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Hey folks, the theme of this history forum is "Empires" and within the general consensus of modern diplomacy and precepts of the United Nations, non-intervention in the internal affairs of duly constituted states is a sine qua non. Yes, there are fancy phrases such as the old Wilsonian "self-determination of peoples" but, in the real world the clash of social and economic interests raise many phantoms. Given this Media driven age, many an advocacy group appoints itself the guardians against their particular devils regardless of whether there are in place political mechanism addressing abuses. Often, these critics adopt patronizing attitudes and shape evil stereotypes or proclaim catastrophe for personal profit. In many ways, most modern advocacy groups generate "cash cows" on whose teats feed a myriad of professionals who shape lucrative professions on the backs of the helpless. Let us call them secular missionaries embarked upon international "conversion". Many, have other political objectives as well and the present discussion provides an excellent example of convergence between ecologists, global warming fanatics, and social scientists, who believe their notions are to come before the immediate problems faced by a larger society. In terms of European intellectuals this phenomenon is hardly new since that continent has a long history of knowing "what's best" for everyone else.
 
In the context of economic and social problems facing the Brazilian government (and here we are not confronting some out-of-the-way hell hole), one must keep in mind that we are addressing a nation with an estimated 200 million people. Metropolitan Sao Paulo has more people within its bounds than all of Sweden combined! Since the 1950s, Brazilians have clearly understood that the social and economic integrity of their nation depends entirely upon the proper development of all their resources. But, suddenly, they are now confronting groups that in many ways wish to turn two-thirds of their national territory into some form of wilderness preserve! Toward that end these gropus latch onto all type of exaggerations and reach fro historical stereotypes suitable for whatever campaign they mount for the moment. Sorry folks, but the protection of isolated Amerinds does pre-date the appearance of both Sting and Bono on the world stage and the maintenance of ecological balance concerned Brazilians long before people croaked about Rain Forests and Carbon sinks. One need only peruse the pages of the many reports by scientists at the Instituto Brasileiro de Geografia e Estadistica going back to the 1930s to grasp this fact. Nevertheless, many European and American "intellectuals" find it difficult to recognize their own paternalistic hubris when discussing Brazil. Further, out of ignorance they coflate entirely different situations and project horror stories of exploitation premised upon isolated Amerinds and others with long histories of contact and aculturation.
 
These new advocates of the infamous 19th century Amerindian "reservations" in North America--or modern day life upon these tracts within the United States--have no real understanding of what they are wishing for...
 
Absolutely agree. You have been very clear and absolutely precise.
 
By the way, even such a small country as my own, Chile, has a capital city with as much people like the whole Sweeden.
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Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

If you think that way, why don't let Indians continue killing theirs babies.
After all, you stated your own supersticion in the above paragraph, that I remarked LOL.
 
 
As I stated better take care of the born children and give them what they need in life
 than crying over embryos.
 
In Latin america there are too many abandoned children in the streets that noone cares about,
but embryos many people cry over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 21:57
So if somebody is going to suffer it is better to be dead? Would you unplug your gramma from the machine yourself?

Edited by pinguin - 20-May-2009 at 21:57
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 22:08
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

So if somebody is going to suffer it is better to be dead? Would you unplug your gramma from the machine yourself?
 
If you are not born than you cannot die.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2009 at 22:11
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
Gee, Carcharodon, I did not know that Hypocrates condemned abortion because it was a
superstition emanating from the church?
 
Hippocrates was a product of his time, even more ancient than the church.
 
There's an old Spanish maxim you should keep in mind Carch:
 
"Mas sabe el diablo por anciano que por diablo"
 
"The devil knows more because he's ancient than because he's the devil."
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