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Forum LockedSave Xingu peoples from Destruction!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 18:28
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I opened a thread on the topic here

 
 
Interesting, here is also a thread about these topics:
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 19:52

Jesus! I forgot about that.

"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 03:23
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

And much of the political rethoric of the Brazilian state is the same as in all colonial enterprises there one tries to mask pure greed with terms like development, civilization, progress and other words of propaganda.
--- 
The research that shows a denser population in precolumbian Amazon than hitherto believd is just in its infancy but it seems that in many places the indigenous peoples had methods of enrichen the topsoil in different way. One of these methods was obviously a kind of slash and smolder technique that enrichened the soil with a charcoal-like substans.
And the farming seem to have been complemented by different kind of aquaculture, growing and keeping fish in systems of ponds and channels.
---
Just listen to the indigenous peoples own opinions about this dam, they are not particular fond of being driven away from their homes just for the sake of enrichen greedy capitalist entrepreneurs and state officials.
 
The three statements above say more about their author's prejudices and biases than any Brazilian reality. President Lula da Silva can hardly be labeled a raping capitalist and the PSB is a member of the Socialist International. Further, the electrification project is a state enterprise and not an overweaning private conglomerate. Certainly a Brazilian caboclo in Matto Grosso would take issue with his being called an agent of "colonialism".
 
As for the supposition on population and settlements in the Amazon, just what part of the Amazon is making such a claim? Certainly Meggars and Evans way back when did good work on the Para estuary and we do have the old descriptions of Carvajal from the 16th century for the Amazon River proper, but we were not discussing the Xingu within Para but the Matto Grosso region of Kayapo predominance.Map - Click to zoom
 
Therein, internal migrations within a recognized territory permit marginal agriculture and given the nature of the region "fishing" is a seasonal endeavor. Large populations were never sustainable in the Upper Xingu. Read the publications of IBGE rather than the emotional bites of international organizations for the socio-geographic realities of the Brazilian interior. At least read Brazilian scholars on the Kayapo and Ge within a historical ambit:
 
Reinaldo Morales. The Nordeste Tradition (2006)
 
Carneiro da Cunha. Historia dos Indios no Brasil (1998)
 
Not that serious scholars are not aware of the distinctions (as with your efforts to coflate the Amazon with the Xingu). Here I quote Dr. June Hahner [2002]
 
In the sixteenth century in all areas of what is now Brazil, early European explorers were astonished at the density and diversity of Native populations. Peoples of the densely settled Amazon flood plain, with its rich soil and abundant fish, were sedentary horticulturalists living in complex societies with permanent, centralized political hierarchies headed by hereditary chiefs. Sixteenth-century European chroniclers reported on these societies' stratified political and economic organization, complex territorial arrangements, intensive cultivation, some animal domestication, and surplus economies with large networks of commercial and trade relations. In contrast, much of eastern Brazil--from the forests of what is now Mato Grosso State to the arid highlands and savannas that separate the southern Amazon basin from the Atlantic coast--was inhabited by nomadic hunters and foragers. These peoples were organized in small, highly mobile bands and ranged through huge areas of the interior to hunt, forage, trade, and make war on enemy groups. To the south were swidden agriculturalists who cultivated maize and who periodically moved their multi-family villages throughout a large region of tropical and subtropical coastal forests along the major rivers of the Paraná-Paraguay River system.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 13:10
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

The three statements above say more about their author's prejudices and biases than any Brazilian reality. President Lula da Silva can hardly be labeled a raping capitalist and the PSB is a member of the Socialist International. Further, the electrification project is a state enterprise and not an overweaning private conglomerate. Certainly a Brazilian caboclo in Matto Grosso would take issue with his being called an agent of "colonialism".
 
Still the government refuses to listen to the indigenous peoples concerning tha dam. It seems that prestige has got into the projectt and also expactations of huge profit for officials and capitalists alike.
 
The dam is a state enterprise but its purpose is also to feed private inustrial enterprises with energy.
 
And by tradition settlers have many times been the forerunners of colonialism.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

As for the supposition on population and settlements in the Amazon, just what part of the Amazon is making such a claim? Certainly Meggars and Evans way back when did good work on the Para estuary and we do have the old descriptions of Carvajal from the 16th century for the Amazon River proper, but we were not discussing the Xingu within Para but the Matto Grosso region of Kayapo predominance. 
Therein, internal migrations within a recognized territory permit marginal agriculture and given the nature of the region "fishing" is a seasonal endeavor. Large populations were never sustainable in the Upper Xingu. Read the publications of IBGE rather than the emotional bites of international organizations for the socio-geographic realities of the Brazilian interior. At least read Brazilian scholars on the Kayapo and Ge within a historical ambit:
 
Heckenberger worked with surveys and excavations together with the Kuikuro on their land. His estimations is that the settlements, and the agricultural and aquacultural structures, he found could once have harboured tens of thousands individuals. As I mentioned there is still a lot of work to be done regarding the scope of these structures and regarding the demography in the area in precolumbian times.
But it really seems that a reevaluation of earlier beliefs in these matters are on it´s way.
 
Also old accounts by earliy travelers must be complemented by solid archaeological research since those accounts often are limited and biased.
 
 
Some archaeological  research that suggests denser populations in different areas:
 
Erickson, Clark L, 2000: "An Artificial Landscape-Scale Fishery in the Bolivian Amazon" Nature. 408:190-193
 

Michael J. Heckenberger et al (2008). Pre-Columbian Urbanism, Anthropogenic Landscapes, and the Future of the Amazon. SCIENCE 29 AUGUST 2008 VOL 321 (About Xingu in Matto Grosso, Brazil)

 
A couple of popular articles that talks about the discussions about demography in precolumbian Amazonas:
 
 
 
 
By the way, check out these thereads here on the forum, they also discuss this matter:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 18:13
Well, Carcharodon, with all due respect to my esteemed  colleague at Gainesville and his penchant for jargon--"historical anthropology"Shocked--it is all about defining your terms and terminology. For goodness sakes, what does this mean!?!
 

Pre-Columbian Urbanism, Anthropogenic Landscapes, and the Future of the Amazon

Michael J. Heckenberger,1* J. Christian Russell,2 Carlos Fausto,3 Joshua R. Toney,4 Morgan J. Schmidt,5 Edithe Pereira,6 Bruna Franchetto,7 Afukaka Kuikuro8

The archaeology of pre-Columbian polities in the Amazon River basin forces a reconsideration of early urbanism and long-term change in tropical forest landscapes. We describe settlement and land-use patterns of complex societies on the eve of European contact (after 1492) in the Upper Xingu region of the Brazilian Amazon. These societies were organized in articulated clusters, representing small independent polities, within a regional peer polity. These patterns constitute a "galactic" form of prehistoric urbanism, sharing features with small-scale urban polities in other areas. Understanding long-term change in coupled human-environment systems relating to these societies has implications for conservation and sustainable development, notably to control ecological degradation and maintain regional biodiversity.

Heckenberger et al.
Science 29 August 2008: 1214-1217
That abstract is a masterpiece in obfuscation abandoning traditional terms so as to transpose old understandings into novelties; novelties that permit ideological and political biases to stand as factual research within the norms of historical methodology. It is not in my scheme of things to "shoot the messenger" but one can not consider the validity of the construct without understanding the assumptions at play. The above says very little about the historical Kayapo and volumes about the political and intellectual directions of the authors. It is nothing more than an inversion of language in the service of politics. If the Tupian Amerinds of the Upper Xingu, may be considered "urbanized", why not the Huns or any other group with similar adaptive traits within particular environments?
 
As you can see from the citations you profer, the entire matter is put forward in terms of politics and not actual historical research--which is ample in terms of the Nordeste. After all, the chroniclers of the 16th century were pretty accurate about actual "urbanization" within the Amazon [enough so as to be held "incredible" by later readers]. Have you ever heard of the Yawalapiti?


Edited by drgonzaga - 17-May-2009 at 18:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 18:30
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
Still the government refuses to listen to the indigenous peoples concerning tha dam. It seems that prestige has got into the projectt and also expactations of huge profit for officials and capitalists alike.
 
 
So? Are you going to tell me there is no dams in Sweeden? Or that no people ever lost theirs lands for the construction of a new highway? Or has to be remove from theirs ancestral lands because a new infrastructure must be build?
 
Where do you live? In Congo or New Guinea? Nope. You live in Sweeden, I think you are using a double standard. You want Brazil stays where it is while you guys enjoys a high standard of living. I bet Volvo is one of those capitalists investing in Brazil
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
The dam is a state enterprise but its purpose is also to feed private inustrial enterprises with energy.
 
 
The purpose is to feed Brazil with energy.
 
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
And by tradition settlers have many times been the forerunners of colonialism.
 
 
These natives aren't uncontacted Natives. They have the evil western civilization at place right now. There is nothing that can change that. The only rational and human thing to do is to help them with medicine, schools, subsidies, lands and programs to improve theirs lives.
 
Forget it, the "jungle lifestyle" is already gone for good. Of course every effort most be done to preserve the ancient cultures and knowledge, but keeping these people in the jungle, living theirs short lives in nature, and menaced by thugs, it is not only naive but criminal.
 
 
 
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 19:15
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
So? Are you going to tell me there is no dams in Sweeden? Or that no people ever lost theirs lands for the construction of a new highway? Or has to be remove from theirs ancestral lands because a new infrastructure must be build?
 
 
Ofcourse there are dams in Sweden. Here people and government also has fought about these dams. In some case the authorities has forced the descisions to make the dams, other times local people and environmentalists have been able to stop the dams.
Espcially the Saami people have had many fights with authorities about their right to their ancestral land.
  
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
The purpose is to feed Brazil with energy.
 
 
Unfortunately Brazilian authorities are in the hands of capitalist robbers, so much of the energy will go to aluminium smelting and other capitalist endevours.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  
These natives aren't uncontacted Natives. They have the evil western civilization at place right now. There is nothing that can change that. The only rational and human thing to do is to help them with medicine, schools, subsidies, lands and programs to improve theirs lives.
 
 
The Saamis in Sweden (and Norway, Finland and Russia) are not uncontacted natives either, still they fight a hard struggle to keep and also regain land rights and to preserve their culture.
And it is much easier to help the indigenous peoples with medicine, schools and other things if they can keep their land.
  
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  
Forget it, the "jungle lifestyle" is already gone for good. Of course every effort most be done to preserve the ancient cultures and knowledge, but keeping these people in the jungle, living theirs short lives in nature, and menaced by thugs, it is not only naive but criminal.
 
Noone talks about "jungle lifestyle". It´s just a matter of those who own the land shall be able to keep it and live the lifestyle they themselves choose, not the lifestyle capitalist thugs and corrupt officials enforces upon them.
Fortunately the indigenous peoples have friends from all around the world now (many of them themselves members of indigenous peoples as Saamis, Amerindians from other places and even indigenous peoples from so far away as Indian Himalayas), friends who cannot be bought off by local capitalists and land thieves.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 19:17
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Well, Carcharodon, with all due respect to my esteemed  colleague at Gainesville and his penchant for jargon--"historical anthropology"Shocked--it is all about defining your terms and terminology. For goodness sakes, what does this mean!?!
 
Maybe if you read the whole article things will get clearer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 20:19
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Well, Carcharodon, with all due respect to my esteemed  colleague at Gainesville and his penchant for jargon--"historical anthropology"Shocked--it is all about defining your terms and terminology. For goodness sakes, what does this mean!?!
 
Maybe if you read the whole article things will get clearer.
 
Gee, three whole pages in Science are sufficient to revise over 50 years of research inboth history and anthropology! Amazonian settlement patterns and "economic activity"
are hardly novelties. These were documented long ago, but what is new is the "spin",
nothing else. Given your silence on the Yawapiti, it is apparent that parroting is not limited
to rain forest exploitation. Pinguin's dissection is more than adequate here as to what is
of greater concern to your own constructs. Have you ever read anything on the Tapirape
and the work of Charles Wagley? Little jargon there and far more humanistic observation
rather than political folderol.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 20:41
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
Ofcourse there are dams in Sweden. Here people and government also has fought about these dams. In some case the authorities has forced the descisions to make the dams, other times local people and environmentalists have been able to stop the dams.
Espcially the Saami people have had many fights with authorities about their right to their ancestral land.
  
So, pray with the example. When you guys turn down all those dams we can start to preach anti-dum morality to Brazil, China or elsewhere.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
Unfortunately Brazilian authorities are in the hands of capitalist robbers, so much of the energy will go to aluminium smelting and other capitalist endevours.
 
Are you accusing Brazil of being a banana republic? If so, this discussion has no sense. You are just applying a biass in these matters.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
The Saamis in Sweden (and Norway, Finland and Russia) are not uncontacted natives either, still they fight a hard struggle to keep and also regain land rights and to preserve their culture.
And it is much easier to help the indigenous peoples with medicine, schools and other things if they can keep their land.
 
Nobody says they have to give up land. They can recover lands elsewhere. That's the move natives should do.
  
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...  
Noone talks about "jungle lifestyle". It´s just a matter of those who own the land shall be able to keep it and live the lifestyle they themselves choose, not the lifestyle capitalist thugs and corrupt officials enforces upon them.
 
So, you feel free to speak on corruption on Brazil. What give you the right to patronize Brazil? Given the fact you come from a country which have huge investments in Brazil? Are your sweedish investors corrupt and thugs, too? Or that only apply to Brazilians.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
Fortunately the indigenous peoples have friends from all around the world now (many of them themselves members of indigenous peoples as Saamis, Amerindians from other places and even indigenous peoples from so far away as Indian Himalayas), friends who cannot be bought off by local capitalists and land thieves.
 
Indigenous people have friends in Brazil, too. Among the Brazilians too. Foreigners pintamonos (translate like clows or "good-doers"), are not need for our countries to resolve internal problems.
 
I don't know when Europeans are going to stop to teach us as if our countries were inferiors.
 
I am going to promote the causes of the Sami people in Sweeden, and interfiere with the corrupt government of Sweden that prevent them to go back to the tee-pees and using raindears slades. Confused
 
 
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 20:42
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

...
 
Gee, three whole pages in Science are sufficient to revise over 50 years of research inboth history and anthropology! Amazonian settlement patterns and "economic activity"
are hardly novelties. These were documented long ago, but what is new is the "spin",
nothing else. Given your silence on the Yawapiti, it is apparent that parroting is not limited
to rain forest exploitation. Pinguin's dissection is more than adequate here as to what is
of greater concern to your own constructs. Have you ever read anything on the Tapirape
and the work of Charles Wagley? Little jargon there and far more humanistic observation
rather than political folderol.
 

It is pretty obvious that when a gringo writes something, then it matters. These Europeans still treat us, Latin Americans, as third world savages.

"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2009 at 21:24

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 

Gee, three whole pages in Science are sufficient to revise over 50 years of research inboth history and anthropology! Amazonian settlement patterns and "economic activity"

are hardly novelties. These were documented long ago, but what is new is the "spin",

nothing else.

 

It´s not unusal in the world of science, especially in the world of archaeology, that new

findings revise old theories and old research. That is something one has to be used to

in modern research.

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Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  
So, pray with the example. When you guys turn down all those dams we can start to preach anti-dum morality to Brazil, China or elsewhere.
 
Actually Sweden are starting to tear down dams. There is one example not far from the place I live.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  
Are you accusing Brazil of being a banana republic? If so, this discussion has no sense. You are just applying a biass in these matters.
 
Corruption is a problem in most Latin American countries. There are actually people over there who says so themselves.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  
Nobody says they have to give up land. They can recover lands elsewhere. That's the move natives should do.
 
Noone can garantee them some land elsewhere. And elsewhere is not where they have their roots and their way of life. Picture yourself someone took away your home and then placed you on a dump somewhere, imagine how that would feel.
   
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  
So, you feel free to speak on corruption on Brazil. What give you the right to patronize Brazil? Given the fact you come from a country which have huge investments in Brazil? Are your sweedish investors corrupt and thugs, too? Or that only apply to Brazilians.
 
I do not defend Swedish capitalistic exploitation in other countries. We are actually many people here in Sweden protesting against that.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  
Indigenous people have friends in Brazil, too. Among the Brazilians too. Foreigners pintamonos (translate like clows or "good-doers"), are not need for our countries to resolve internal problems.
 
I don't know when Europeans are going to stop to teach us as if our countries were inferiors.
 
Brazil and many other countries need some international pressure to start to respect human rights.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  
I am going to promote the causes of the Sami people in Sweeden, and interfiere with the corrupt government of Sweden that prevent them to go back to the tee-pees and using raindears slades.  
 
You are welcome, the Saami people also need support in their struggle for land rights and preserving their culture. Actually they already work together with North American natives, with Inuits, with australian aborigines and others. They also have contacts with indigenous peoples from Latin America.
 
By the way Saamis don´t live in tee-pees, they live in houses. In old times they lived in "kåtor", some actually do that still today in the summer.
 
 
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Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 Actually Sweden are starting to tear down dams. There is one example not far from the place I live.
 
Good for you. There is not much people in your country to have many dams either.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Corruption is a problem in most Latin American countries. There are actually people over there who says so themselves.
 
So, there isn't problems of corruption in China, Japan, in the U.S., and even in your own Sweeden? Perhaps it is easier to see the defects in others. For instance, in my country we consider Sweeden a country whose main source of income is the explotation of women with the porn industry. That's not corruption, of course. I bet that industry pay taxes.
 
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Noone can garantee them some land elsewhere. And elsewhere is not where they have their roots and their way of life. Picture yourself someone took away your home and then placed you on a dump somewhere, imagine how that would feel.
 
Ways of life, again. Why don't you keep your romanticism for Europe? I wonder how Brazil allows so many foreigners to make trouble in the jungles.
   
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

I do not defend Swedish capitalistic exploitation in other countries. We are actually many people here in Sweden protesting against that.
 
I bet you guys are very bored down there, with a lot of time to waste.
If you do, you better stop Japanese, and Finns from killing whales, which is something a lot more urgent than abstract protests. Yes, so much theorical ecology in scandinavia, and you guys still hunt whales!!!
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  
Brazil and many other countries need some international pressure to start to respect human rights.
 
Yes. There are countries that need a lesson. For instance, the pro-abortion countries of northern Europe that kill millions of unborn babies every single year should have a reflection on what they are doing.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  
You are welcome, the Saami people also need support in their struggle for land rights and preserving their culture. Actually they already work together with North American natives, with Inuits, with australian aborigines and others. They also have contacts with indigenous peoples from Latin America.
 
By the way Saamis don´t live in tee-pees, they live in houses. In old times they lived in "kåtor", some actually do that still today in the summer.
 
Most natives these days live in houses. Or do you think Mapuches in my country live in rucas? Actually, what natives need the most is to get the advantages of modern culture, and in that way they would be able to deffend themselves a lot better.
 
 
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
Good for you. There is not much people in your country to have many dams either.
 
There are to many dams here in Sweden, we just have to tear down many of them.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
So, there isn't problems of corruption in China, Japan, in the U.S., and even in your own Sweeden? Perhaps it is easier to see the defects in others. For instance, in my country we consider Sweeden a country whose main source of income is the explotation of women with the porn industry. That's not corruption, of course. I bet that industry pay taxes.
 
The Swedish porn industry is vanishing. Most young people today actually want to ban porn totally. Also Sweden have strong laws against prostitution.
And our main sources of income is industrial products, electronics and ofcourse natural products like iron and wood.
 
USA is today the country that produces most porn. Also a country like Brazil are producing much more porn than Sweden.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Ways of life, again. Why don't you keep your romanticism for Europe? I wonder how Brazil allows so many foreigners to make trouble in the jungles.
 
So you shall determine if the indigenous peoples shall have the right to live according their own culture or not? Only the indigenous peoples themselves can determine such a thing.
 
Just listen one more time to what Pierlangela Nascimento da Cunha says:
 
 
But maybe you know better than her how she and her people shall live their lives?
   
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
I bet you guys are very bored down there, with a lot of time to waste.
If you do, you better stop Japanese, and Finns from killing whales, which is something a lot more urgent than abstract protests. Yes, so much theorical ecology in scandinavia, and you guys still hunt whales!!!
 
Finns don´t kill wales but unfortunately Norwegians and Icelanders do so. But there are many people here who really fight to stop that.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  
Yes. There are countries that need a lesson. For instance, the pro-abortion countries of northern Europe that kill millions of unborn babies every single year should have a reflection on what they are doing.
 
Yes I can understand that you think so being slave under old medieval values stemming from woman hating monks and priests.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

  
Most natives these days live in houses. Or do you think Mapuches in my country live in rucas? Actually, what natives need the most is to get the advantages of modern culture, and in that way they would be able to deffend themselves a lot better.
 
Yes they maybe need the advantages of modern culture but not disadvantages as slum, criminality, alcohol, prostitution and other problems that are to common in "modern" Brazil and other latin American countries.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 01:57
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
There are to many dams here in Sweden, we just have to tear down many of them.
 
Yes, but you needed them once to develop your country.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
The Swedish porn industry is vanishing. Most young people today actually want to ban porn totally. Also Sweden have strong laws against prostitution.
And our main sources of income is industrial products, electronics and ofcourse natural products like iron and wood.
USA is today the country that produces most porn. Also a country like Brazil are producing much more porn than Sweden.
 
 
I just mentioned that because you talked about corruption. It is easy to patronize other countries and forget the miseries on our own.
  
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
 
So you shall determine if the indigenous peoples shall have the right to live according their own culture or not? Only the indigenous peoples themselves can determine such a thing.
 
Just listen one more time to what Pierlangela Nascimento da Cunha says:
 
 
But maybe you know better than her how she and her people shall live their lives?
 
What I know about Indian issues is that most are solved with education and resources given directly to the people. For instance, casinos in the U.S. are a lot more practical solution that preserving people in the stone age. Well managed, a case as a damn can be a source of income for the natives. The dam won't be stopped, so the best to do is manage to get advantages from the circumstances.
 
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
Finns don´t kill wales but unfortunately Norwegians and Icelanders do so. But there are many people here who really fight to stop that.
 
 
Yeap. Norwegians. They should stop it right now. We want our wales alive. Otherwise, they will force us to act, and they will end up with a torpedo at theirs norwegian backs.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
Yes I can understand that you think so being slave under old medieval values stemming from woman hating monks and priests.
 
 
Nope, I wasn't thinking in middle ages christianity, but in pagan times. I was thinking in the pleasure of killing babies in human sacrifices, in the name of the goddess of women's freedom and progressism.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

... 
Yes they maybe need the advantages of modern culture but not disadvantages as slum, criminality, alcohol, prostitution and other problems that are to common in "modern" Brazil and other latin American countries. 
 
Brazil is a poor country in income per capita. Without investments in infrastructe and energy you will condemn it to be poor forever.
 
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 08:39
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
Yes, but you needed them once to develop your country.
 
Because in those days there were no good alternatives. many dams in Sweden was built one hundred years ago. Today more and more alternative energy sourses appear.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
What I know about Indian issues is that most are solved with education and resources given directly to the people. For instance, casinos in the U.S. are a lot more practical solution that preserving people in the stone age. Well managed, a case as a damn can be a source of income for the natives. The dam won't be stopped, so the best to do is manage to get advantages from the circumstances.
 
What you know about indian issues are not so much as the indans themselves know.
 
Dams have been stopped before. Even in the same region the indigenous peoples and other succeded to stop a dam. And they seem rather determined to stop this dam too.
 
Noone talks about letting anyone live in the stone age. It´s just a matter of letting people live as they themselves wish on their own land. To not let them do so is colonialism.
 
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
Yeap. Norwegians. They should stop it right now. We want our wales alive. Otherwise, they will force us to act, and they will end up with a torpedo at theirs norwegian backs.
 
Actually the whaling fleet of Iceland was one time sunk by the Sea Shephard, an environmental organisation.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
Nope, I wasn't thinking in middle ages christianity, but in pagan times. I was thinking in the pleasure of killing babies in human sacrifices, in the name of the goddess of women's freedom and progressism.
 
According to monks and celibacy priests it is better to let raped women have babies. It´s better that families throw their children out on the streets than limit the ammount of babies that are born.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
Brazil is a poor country in income per capita. Without investments in infrastructe and energy you will condemn it to be poor forever.  
 
There are other alternatives, and even if poor that doesn´t give them the right to invade other peoples land. Brazil ought to be able to solve it´s economic problems without colonial incursions on others land.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 15:46
Problem one: Brazil is not a colony anymore. Outsiders shouldn't intervine in its internat affairs.
Problem two: your missed my point on the killing of unborn babies, that point backwards to pagan human sacrifices, rather that to progressism.
Problem three: Foreigners should not dictate what alternatives poor countries should choose. Common, we aren't in the times of the British Empire anymore!
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 16:55
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


For instance, in my country we consider Sweeden a country whose main source of income is the explotation of women with the porn industry.
 

So maybe you should address your own ridiculous prejudice before spitting on those of others? Especially in this case; Latin America is quite corrupt. And so is many European states, eg Italy, most of the Balkan, and especially the prime example, Russia. I don't take a position in this case, but you are constantly attacking people's origin instead of their arguments. If a European says something slightly negative about anything Latin American, he is automatically a prejudiced racist scumbag no matter whether he is right or wrong.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 18-May-2009 at 17:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2009 at 17:57
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Problem one: Brazil is not a colony anymore. Outsiders shouldn't intervine in its internat affairs.
 
We live in a global world. Everyone who commit crimes against human rights has to accept criticism from other countries.
 
And in the case of Xingu river, and also in the case of the indigenous in Raposa Serra del Sol, the indigenous peoples themselves have asked for help from outside. In the latter case representants have travelled to many European countries and even visited the Pope in Rome to try to get help in their fight for their own land and for the right to live in the way they choose.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Problem two: your missed my point on the killing of unborn babies, that point backwards to pagan human sacrifices, rather that to progressism.
 
To let woman choose what to do with their own bodies is more progressive than forcing them to have a lot of unwanted babies that noone takes care of.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Problem three: Foreigners should not dictate what alternatives poor countries should choose. Common, we aren't in the times of the British Empire anymore!
 
As I said, we live in a global world, everyone has to accept criticism if they treat people in a bad way.
 
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