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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 02:41
Well, ecologists usually are as dogmatic as missioners. Christians, communists, liberals and ecologists are all dogmatic people that put theirs ideologies before the Indians.
I agree than Indigenous people and good willing people can collaborate in the Indigenous causes, given they are focus in the problems of the natives, and not in foreign ideologies.
With respect to American peoples (people of the Americas, not only US) to be hostile to Indigenous you are wrong. Some are, indeed, but the large majority defend the Indigenous causes. And while some outsiders just have woke up to these problems, they should realize locals have decades and even centuries fighting side by side with the indigenous people for the rights of all.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 02:47
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

No one says they are isolates. They have never been isolates. Before they got into contact with the first Europeans they had a lot of extensive contacts with each other (the density of the population was larger in those days). Later they got in contact and got decimated and exploited by European invaders who also spread diseases that severly reduced the population.
...
The do-gooders "exploitation" is nothing compared with the exploitation by different companies who want to exploit natural resources, corrupt officials who want to have a part of the big Amazonian cake, large scale farmers who want to free some land for their farms and plantations, and many others who participate in the plundering of this area.
 
My experience on Brazil goes back to the 1950s and the famous "Trans-Amazonian highway project" and in terms of intensity I personally knew many of the original "defenders" of the Amazonian Amerinds from the Villa-Boa brothers to Charles Wagley [who made his career in anthropology on the base of the Tupian experience]. In this sense, a little socio-cultural context for the Tupians is in order [recall Melville's novel Typee?]. In many ways, the approach undertaken by these "do-gooders" is not only condescending but demeaning as well since opposition to development projects, dams, and all other such type of "economic" improvements is part and parcel of Western life...here in a fit of Bono balderdash one receives the caricature drawn straight from the noble savage stereotype. 
 
I suppose this site is a dastardly conspiracy fomented by the greedy capitalists:
 
 
By the way, the population of the Xingu valley today is far greater than it ever was in the pre-colombian period in terms of the Amerind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 02:51
In my country, foreigners that go to teach guerilla tactics to Mapuche extremists have been deported and even jailed.
That kind of help is not needed. In the last land problem for the building of a dam on Pehuenche territory, some natives got half a million dollars for theirs properties... no kidding. And they even got land on return.


Edited by pinguin - 16-May-2009 at 02:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 02:59
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Well, ecologists usually are as dogmatic as missioners. Christians, communists, liberals and ecologists are all dogmatic people that put theirs ideologies before the Indians.
 
So are capitalists in their stereotyped thinking that exploitation of natural resources and creating huge industrial projects will solve all problems.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


I agree than Indigenous people and good willing people can collaborate in the Indigenous causes, given they are focus in the problems of the natives, and not in foreign ideologies.
With respect to American peoples (people of the Americas, not only US) to be hostile to Indigenous you are wrong. Some are, indeed, but the large majority defend the Indigenous causes.
 
It is ofcourse different in different countries and in different parts of those countries. Unfortunately in many places one meets a lot of discrimination and stereotypes about the indigenous peoples, as for example in Colombia where many people call them "animalitos" and other demeaning words. Mostly though one meets a lot of ignorance, many people in for example Brazil havent a clue how the indigenous peoples live or what problems they face.

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

And while some outsiders just have woke up to these problems, they should realize locals have decades and even centuries fighting side by side with the indigenous people for the rights of all.
 
Unfortunately there are also decades of locals fighting against and abusing the indigenous peoples.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 03:16
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

My experience on Brazil goes back to the 1950s and the famous "Trans-Amazonian highway project" and in terms of intensity I personally knew many of the original "defenders" of the Amazonian Amerinds from the Villa-Boa brothers to Charles Wagley [who made his career in anthropology on the base of the Tupian experience]. In this sense, a little socio-cultural context for the Tupians is in order [recall Melville's novel Typee?]. In many ways, the approach undertaken by these "do-gooders" is not only condescending but demeaning as well since opposition to development projects, dams, and all other such type of "economic" improvements is part and parcel of Western life...here in a fit of Bono balderdash one receives the caricature drawn straight from the noble savage stereotype. 
 
In the case of the Belo Monte dam much of the initiative to oppose to the building of the dam actually comes from the indigenous peoples themselves. They are often asking visitors and others to raise this matter in different fora and also to let this matter be known in other countries, raising opinion also there.

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

By the way, the population of the Xingu valley today is far greater than it ever was in the pre-colombian period in terms of the Amerind.

Recent excavations and surveys suggest that the region was much denser populated than earlier believed. Large systems of raised fields, channels, ponds and semi urban centers has been found which suggest a flourishing garden culture around 1250 - 1600 which was severly decimated through contact with the Europeans and their dieases, and later abuse, slavery and destruction. It is estimated that maybe so much as 90 percent of the population in these areas was viped out during those years of first contact.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 05:01
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...
Recent excavations and surveys suggest that the region was much denser populated than earlier believed. Large systems of raised fields, channels, ponds and semi urban centers has been found which suggest a flourishing garden culture around 1250 - 1600 which was severly decimated through contact with the Europeans and their dieases, and later abuse, slavery and destruction. It is estimated that maybe so much as 90 percent of the population in these areas was viped out during those years of first contact.
 
You shouldn't believe so easily the first theory that appears in the newspapers. The archaeology of the Americas is plenty of Indiana Jones like people with balooney ideas. Before scientific checkup those things are nonsense.
Besides, if you consider that 1/3 of the genetic makeup of Brazilians is Amerindian, then the hypotesis of a masive decline in population, of that magical 90% figure that's so in fashion today, is hard to support
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 15:19
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

In the case of the Belo Monte dam much of the initiative to oppose to the building of the dam actually comes from the indigenous peoples themselves. They are often asking visitors and others to raise this matter in different fora and also to let this matter be known in other countries, raising opinion also there.
...
Recent excavations and surveys suggest that the region was much denser populated than earlier believed. Large systems of raised fields, channels, ponds and semi urban centers has been found which suggest a flourishing garden culture around 1250 - 1600 which was severly decimated through contact with the Europeans and their dieases, and later abuse, slavery and destruction. It is estimated that maybe so much as 90 percent of the population in these areas was viped out during those years of first contact.
 
Stay away from ahistorical generalizations, Carcharodon. Much of the rhetoric being gassed over the electrification of the Xingu valley repeats the old cannards marshalled against the Brazilian government ever since the days of Getulio Vargas and his policies on state development and the integration of the national territory. Brazilia does not sit where it does by happenstance.
 
As for the settlement patterns of the Tupian Amerind in a riverine environment with dangerously thin top soil and its slash-and-burn characteristics, such hardly promoted the establishment of large populations in a fixed area. Face it, the present political structure of the Xingu Amerinds identify them as integrated populations engaging in political lobbying for the best "deal" possible while manipulating the "usual suspects" in an international campaign--call it a repeat of that now discredited Guatemalan woman from a few years back.
 
Let's face it, Brazil has reacted in the same manner the Chinese responded to all the do-gooders ballyhoo of the Three Gorges dam project and the dramatic orchestrations set into play by internationalists with their own agendas. After all, wouldn't the Amerinds really be truly happy by remaining in their marginalized "reservations"? Heaven help them if they fell prey to McDonalds over bananas and tarot roots!
 
Leila, Scott, Zach and Xavante youth
 
Wonder how the Kayapo pictured here liked the the T-shirts and flip-flops distributed by their San Francisco (CA) visitors?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 15:46

Traditionals ways of living must change for people to progress. This is the way Latin Americans want to see theirs Indians. That they have the oportunities they deserve.

Colombia, Leticia:
 
 
Iquitos, Peru
 
Venezuela, billingual literature,
 

 
Getting organized against thugs (Ecuador)
 
La comunidad de Sibayacu en la escuela
 
But mainly, going to School.
 
Brazil
 
 
And with respect to the preservation of the native culture, that can be done as well, without keeping people stuck in the jungle. Here, children listening to a shaman about the medical properties of plants. There are organized programs these days that are preserving that knowledge, because people is going to change.
 
Teaching about plants
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 16-May-2009 at 15:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 17:15
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 You shouldn't believe so easily the first theory that appears in the newspapers. The archaeology of the Americas is plenty of Indiana Jones like people with balooney ideas. Before scientific checkup those things are nonsense.
Besides, if you consider that 1/3 of the genetic makeup of Brazilians is Amerindian, then the hypotesis of a masive decline in population, of that magical 90% figure that's so in fashion today, is hard to support
 
One does not not have to read the theories in the newspapers, one can read scientific articles and reports instead, that is more rewarding.
The decline in population by 90 percent probably doesn´t count for all areas of Brazil, just some areas. Brazil is a big country and the demographic circumstances and demographic decline could of course vary.
 
Interesting article about excavations in the Xingu valley:
Michael J. Heckenberger et al (2008). Pre-Columbian Urbanism, Anthropogenic Landscapes, and the Future of the Amazon. SCIENCE 29 AUGUST 2008 VOL 321
 
Heckenberger conducted surveys and excavation in close cooperation with the Kuikuro indignous community.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 17:22
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Traditionals ways of living must change for people to progress. This is the way Latin Americans want to see theirs Indians. That they have the oportunities they deserve.
 
It´s not about what Latin Americans in general want, the most important thing is what the indigenous peoples themselves want.
And to many Latin Americans (especially those with finacial or political interests in different areas) don´t want to see any indigenous peoples att all, they just want to remove them in the name of economic development.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

And with respect to the preservation of the native culture, that can be done as well, without keeping people stuck in the jungle. Here, children listening to a shaman about the medical properties of plants. There are organized programs these days that are preserving that knowledge, because people is going to change.
 
Once again it must be the indigenous peoples themselves who descides what kind of change they want in their way of living.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 17:34

Indigenous people are Latin Americans, they are our people. We are indigenous at least in part, if you aren't aware of. Besides, it is disgusting the hypocrecy of activists comming from developed countries, that enjoy all the fruits of economic development, to teach lessons of poverty to natives. And also to tell our countries to stop to develop, while they consume more resources from the Earth than anyone else. Even more, the idea that our countries don't have people fighting with the indigenous for theirs rights is disgusting. The fight for rights of the poors in general, and the indigenous in particular, has been the cause of many guerrilla wars and injustices for more than a century, all over Latin America. These days people is a lot more concient in human rights, and also more educated, and the fight for the right things to do is stronger. In short, we don't need lessons. Not more, please.

With respect to traditional ways of lifes, why don't you live like your ancestors 5.000 years ago? Why some people can modernize and others should stay where they are to help tourism? Besides, do you know what indigenous people want? To live forever in poverty for the benefit of gringo tourists?
 
And yes, Indigenous should decide what they want, but to decide that they don't need the advice of people that grew up playing Nintendo and eating burgers at McDonals.
 
I opened a tread with a related topic. Medicine from the Amazons. You may be interested and contribute to it.
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 16-May-2009 at 17:38
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 17:35
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 Stay away from ahistorical generalizations, Carcharodon. Much of the rhetoric being gassed over the electrification of the Xingu valley repeats the old cannards marshalled against the Brazilian government ever since the days of Getulio Vargas and his policies on state development and the integration of the national territory. Brazilia does not sit where it does by happenstance. 
 
And much of the political rethoric of the Brazilian state is the same as in all colonial enterprises there one tries to mask pure greed with terms like development, civilization, progress and other words of propaganda.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

As for the settlement patterns of the Tupian Amerind in a riverine environment with dangerously thin top soil and its slash-and-burn characteristics, such hardly promoted the establishment of large populations in a fixed area. Face it, the present political structure of the Xingu Amerinds identify them as integrated populations engaging in political lobbying for the best "deal" possible while manipulating the "usual suspects" in an international campaign--call it a repeat of that now discredited Guatemalan woman from a few years back. 
 
The research that shows a denser population in precolumbian Amazon than hitherto believd is just in its infancy but it seems that in many places the indigenous peoples had methods of enrichen the topsoil in different way. One of these methods was obviously a kind of slash and smolder technique that enrichened the soil with a charcoal-like substans.
And the farming seem to have been complemented by different kind of aquaculture, growing and keeping fish in systems of ponds and channels.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Let's face it, Brazil has reacted in the same manner the Chinese responded to all the do-gooders ballyhoo of the Three Gorges dam project and the dramatic orchestrations set into play by internationalists with their own agendas. After all, wouldn't the Amerinds really be truly happy by remaining in their marginalized "reservations"? Heaven help them if they fell prey to McDonalds over bananas and tarot roots!
 
Just listen to the indigenous peoples own opinions about this dam, they are not particular fond of being driven away from their homes just for the sake of enrichen greedy capitalist entrepreneurs and state officials.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 17:41
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Indigenous people are Latin Americans, they are our people. Besides, it is disgusting the hypocrecy of activists comming from developed countries, that enjoy all the fruits of economic development, to teach lessons of poverty to natives. Even more, the idea that our countries don't have people fighting with the indigenous for theirs rights is disgusting.
Besides, do you know what indigenous people want? To live forever in poverty for the benefit of gringo tourists?
 
Many Latin Americans don´t give a damn about indigenous peoples, they just want to get rid of them. And one can actually listen to indigenous peoples to find out what they want.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

And yes, Indigenous should decide what they want, but to decide they don't need the advice of people that grew up playing Nintendo and eating burgers at McDonals.
 
And even more they don´t need the advice of people who want to deprive them of their land and kick them into some awful Latino slum.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I opened a tread with a related topic. Medicine from the Amazons. You may be interested and contribute to it. 
 
Sounds interesting, I shall check it out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 17:46
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
One does not not have to read the theories in the newspapers, one can read scientific articles and reports instead, that is more rewarding.
The decline in population by 90 percent probably doesn´t count for all areas of Brazil, just some areas. Brazil is a big country and the demographic circumstances and demographic decline could of course vary.
 
Interesting article about excavations in the Xingu valley:
Michael J. Heckenberger et al (2008). Pre-Columbian Urbanism, Anthropogenic Landscapes, and the Future of the Amazon. SCIENCE 29 AUGUST 2008 VOL 321
 
Heckenberger conducted surveys and excavation in close cooperation with the Kuikuro indignous community.
 
The way you phrase it, it doesn't make too much sense. What do you mean by a 90% decline? If in a small place, it could be. To descend from 5.000 people to 500 would be a 90% decline, indeed. Now, the Amazon these days support circa 700.000 natives. In historical times, considering all Brazil and sourrounding amazonian jungles, perhaps there were no more than 1.000.000 people in the whole area, which would make sense. If you have a town at that time with 10.000 people somewhere it would be, in fact, a large town.
 
For geographical reasons, and lifestyle, places like North American forests and deserts, the Amazon, and Patagonia, had very low densities at contact. Others, like Mexico, Central America and the Andes have large populations, but still no more than 1/10 of today densities.
 
Just consider why Portugueses brought Blacks to Brazil. The reason is simply they needed labour, and the local population was not enough. In the case of Peru or Mexico, local populations were a lot more abundant and not as many Africans were ever brought.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 17:53
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Many Latin Americans don´t give a damn about indigenous peoples, they just want to get rid of them. And one can actually listen to indigenous peoples to find out what they want.
 
 
There are bigots in here, like in any country, or your own country. However, most Latin Americans care for the Indians. Your accusation has no root, and shows a biass against Latinos. What do you believe we are?
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

And even more they don´t need the advice of people who want to deprive them of their land and kick them into some awful Latino slum.
 
Our countries are Independent since long ago. We don't need more gringo interventions.
Besides, there is no way to stop the last Indigenous people that remain "pure" go into the general population.
 
Yes, there is poverty in Latin America, particularly in the Amazon. But that won't be a permanent condition, that's for sure. Our countries have progressed quite a bit in the last decades, education and standar of living have increased, and I hope not far from the future you won't find those poverty dramas that are shown so often in BBC.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 17:55
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

The way you phrase it, it doesn't make too much sense. What do you mean by a 90% decline? If in a small place, it could be. To descend from 5.000 people to 500 would be a 90% decline, indeed. Now, the Amazon these days support circa 700.000 natives. In historical times, considering all Brazil and sourrounding amazonian jungles, perhaps there were no more than 1.000.000 people in the whole area, which would make sense. If you have a town at that time with 10.000 people somewhere it would be, in fact, a large town.
 
As for the Xingu valley, the new surveys suggest that the population there can have been so many as 50 000. After the contact with Europeans the population can have dropped to around 5000. After that the population can have recovered but later there was decline again because of warfare, slavery and other opression. Today there have been some recovery again, but no one knows for how long.
Decline of this sorts are not unique in the Amazon forests. Some peoples have vanished completely.
 
 
 
 
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By the way, one of the reasons that the Xingu peoples turn to people from other countries and to different environmental, and other, organisations within and outside Brazil, is that they have notice that the Brazilian government doesn´t listen to them and also treats them with disrespect. They have noticed that the governments main concern is to support capitalist interests and exploitation. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 18:13
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 18:15
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

By the way, one of the reasons that the Xingu peoples turn to people from other countries and to different environmental, and other, organisations within and outside Brazil, is that they have notice that the Brazilian government doesn´t listen to them and also treats them with disrespect. They have noticed that the governments main concern is to support capitalist interests and exploitation. 
 
I am not against to presure Brazilian government, on the contrary. But the cause must be the Indians, not the environment.
"He who attempts to count the stars, not even knowing how to count the knots of the 'quipus'(counting string), ought to be held in derision."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2009 at 18:24

Of course the indians are most important, but the environment is not without concern (both in Brazil and in all other places in the world). If one totally destroys the environment the place will be uninhabitable for all people.

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