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Forum LockedSassanids vs Arabs

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Reginmund View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2007 at 20:34
Originally posted by -ohcrapitsnico- -ohcrapitsnico- wrote:

Don't speak in absolutes the majority of converts did so peacefully. Look at East Africa, West Africa, Indonesia, the Mongols, etc etc.


Absolutely. The Arab conquerors of the 7th century put very little effort into converting the subjugated peoples and the Muslims remained a minority elite in most provinces of the Caliphate well into the times of the Abassids. There were a handful of Muslim potentates in this periods who flirted with religious fanaticism, like Caliph Hakim of the Fatimids (ruled 996-1021), but these may be considered as exceptions to the rule. Caliph Hakim for example was not so much a fanatic as a run of the mill madman. Sure, he had the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem destroyed, a huge affront to the Christians, but he also ordered things like the killing of all dogs in Egypt, a ban on chess and a curious law which commanded people to work at night and sleep during mornings.
Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum,
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hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2007 at 20:46
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

Absolutely. The Arab conquerors of the 7th century put very little effort into converting the subjugated peoples and the Muslims remained a minority elite in most provinces of the Caliphate well into the times of the Abassids.
 
Didn't Mohammed and Umar deal rather harshly with the pagan and Jewish Arabs of the peninsula who refused to convert?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2007 at 21:39
That I cannot say, though it wouldn't surprise me, considering the pagan Arabs' treatment of Muhammed and his followers. Even so, it is not a general characteristic of the Arab conquests.
Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum,
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hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2007 at 21:44
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

That I cannot say, though it wouldn't surprise me, considering the pagan Arabs' treatment of Muhammed and his followers. Even so, it is not a general characteristic of the Arab conquests.
 
What exactly did the pagan Arabs do that made them into the aggressors and Muhammed and his followers into passive reactors?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2007 at 22:06
They persecuted and killed Muslims because they feared the new religion.  It was not until after this persecution that one of the most grossly misrepresented revelations (in recent times, by both muslim and anti-muslim extremists) came to Muhammad - where god allegedly granted Muslims the right to self defence - "kill them where ever you find them [unless they convert]".  Extremists take this out of context and apply it universally to all non-Muslims when in fact it only refers to the meccan pagans, over a millenium ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Nov-2007 at 17:25
As Zagros mentioned, when taking the verse along with the remaining following verses, the context becomes clearer. Here is the complete four verses togather (Yusuf Ali meaning translation):

2:190 Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
2:191 And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
2:192 But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
2:193 And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.


As highlighted. The condition for stopping the war is the cease of opression, not the conversion of the unbelievers (verse 193, bolded). Otherwise, the fighting will continue till justice is established or for the unbelievers to join the Muslim side (verse 193)


Edited by ok ge - 19-Nov-2007 at 17:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 04:05
"look at alexander's empire, look at any empire of those times, they conquered all territory, skipping over arab land"
 
Alexander made plans to conquer Arabian territory, but died shortly thereafter, ending the furture plan of Arabian conquest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 05:48
I beleive he has already made a recce, and was sailing for Yemen within a few days.
The Germans also take vacations in Paris; especially during the periods they call "blitzkrieg".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2007 at 13:02
But amazingly he died despite being a young man, and all of us with an interest in military history were robbed of what would have been an exciting campaign.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 03:50
As with the life of Cyrus the Great. There is so much more he could have done with his new empire after the battle against the Massagetae.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 07:44
Originally posted by Suren Suren wrote:

No offense, but there is no excuse for savagery. At the time of prophet Mohammad, Arabs were famous for being savage, but Mohammad came to teach them act civilized and behave properly. Is this one of prophet Mohammad's teaching to slaughter the people who has broken their words? I doubt. I think some Muslim fighters didn't act properly at the first days of Islamic history and gave a bad name to Islam especially Hajaj ibni Yousef who was famous for his savagery.


We had a thread that had been opened discussing Basil II's acts against Bulgarian POWs i.e. the systematic blindings. Most of us agreed that we cannot condemn such acts as evil due to the fact that it was another time and another set of principles. This act had been done by one of the most religious Emperor's of the Age. Mind you that he lived like a monk and had been very pious. This is a cross reference to a similar event in a similar setting and time, and not so far removed from the previous act discussed.

I have attended a "Muslim-Jewish relations" seminar here at UIC a few years back; a rather interesting class, which made the news for its innovating appraoch and topic. We had international scholars such as Azim Nanji attend. One in particular actually discussed the context of the massacre and the constitution of Medina. I am a bit short on time, but if I find the notes or any article corresponding online I will be glad to share.

The massacres were enacted and decided by a Judaic convert. Furthermore, this act was done outside of Islam the faith, and should be discussed and looked at outside that scope and inside a more political and legalistic one.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 07:53
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor Byzantine Emperor wrote:

Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

That I cannot say, though it wouldn't surprise me, considering the pagan Arabs' treatment of Muhammed and his followers. Even so, it is not a general characteristic of the Arab conquests.
 
What exactly did the pagan Arabs do that made them into the aggressors and Muhammad and his followers into passive reactors?
 


Well the whole context of the Hijra came out of the oppression and harassment that Muhammad and his followers received at the hands of Meccans. While preaching in the early years he had been abused on a continuous basis from being cursed, shoved, or have objects thrown at him. His followers were abused as well and oppressed. The move to Abyssinia *Ethiopia* under the protection of the kingdom's Christian king came out of attempts to kill off the fledging Muslim community. Islamic reverence for animals, etc... i.e. spiders came out of Islamic parables such as that Muhammad escaped with his life as a Spider spun a web over the cave where he escaped to... misleading his would be assassins... who continued the chase... the context of the parable obviously hints at acts of violence against the Prophet and the community... there were other cases such as assassins sent out against the Prophet in Medina...




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 07:56
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor Byzantine Emperor wrote:

Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

Absolutely. The Arab conquerors of the 7th century put very little effort into converting the subjugated peoples and the Muslims remained a minority elite in most provinces of the Caliphate well into the times of the Abassids.
 
Didn't Mohammed and Umar deal rather harshly with the pagan and Jewish Arabs of the peninsula who refused to convert?
 


No they did not. The Massacre is a singled out incident that is not reflective of general treatment. Upon defeat and a peaceful entrance into Mecca the Meccans were asked to convert, which they did. Christian Arabs who participated in the wars, and remained a powerful non-tribute paying force even in the time of Muawiyah enjoyed much the same treatment as did Muslim Arabs...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote es_bih Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 07:58
Originally posted by -ohcrapitsnico- -ohcrapitsnico- wrote:

Originally posted by LilLou LilLou wrote:

If you look at the facts, there was no happy convert, islam or get your head chopped.

 
Don't speak in absolutes the majority of converts did so peacefully. Look at East Africa, West Africa, Indonesia, the Mongols, etc etc.


LiLou by looking at facts I find a multitude of "happy" converts...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 12:37
Originally posted by Darius of Parsa Darius of Parsa wrote:

As with the life of Cyrus the Great. There is so much more he could have done with his new empire after the battle against the Massagetae.
 
Yes, that's a good analogy, except of course that Alexander wasn't killed by a woman. LOL
Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in geār-dagum,
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hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2007 at 03:39
Lets get back this thread's main topic
 
Originally posted by Hellios Hellios wrote:

Hi,

 

In a recent discussion about how & why the Arabs conquered the Sassanids, somebody made a comment to me that I would like to verify.  Below you can see the person quoting me followed by his reply.  Is his reply is true?  Thanks.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellios

thx haj. i was just trying to figure out if the arabs felt that if they didn't conquer the sassanids the sassanids would eradicate them. thx again.


His reply: "No because you have to realize something, the arabs had nothing to even be conquered. look at alexander's empire, look at any empire of those times, they conquered all territory, skipping over arab land, which was modern day saudi arabia. because other than sand and a few animals and some bedouin tribes there was absolutely nothing there, not a building not a thing to be seen. thats why Islam was important for those Arab tribes, Islam provided an excuse for them to unite under one banner."

 
the replay isnt entirely true, that Arabian peninsula was not just "sand and few animals and some bedouin tribes", it has a very strategic location in the middle of the old world, its southern part was and still a fertile land which exported many types of products and was the link between India and the Roman Empire.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2007 at 11:50
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

Originally posted by Darius of Parsa Darius of Parsa wrote:

As with the life of Cyrus the Great. There is so much more he could have done with his new empire after the battle against the Massagetae.
 
Yes, that's a good analogy, except of course that Alexander wasn't killed by a woman. LOL


He was killed by microscopic, single celled beings instead
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2007 at 00:52
Originally posted by Hellios Hellios wrote:

Hi,

 

In a recent discussion about how & why the Arabs conquered the Sassanids, somebody made a comment to me that I would like to verify.  Below you can see the person quoting me followed by his reply.  Is his reply is true?  Thanks.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellios

thx haj. i was just trying to figure out if the arabs felt that if they didn't conquer the sassanids the sassanids would eradicate them. thx again.


His reply: "No because you have to realize something, the arabs had nothing to even be conquered. look at alexander's empire, look at any empire of those times, they conquered all territory, skipping over arab land, which was modern day saudi arabia. because other than sand and a few animals and some bedouin tribes there was absolutely nothing there, not a building not a thing to be seen. thats why Islam was important for those Arab tribes, Islam provided an excuse for them to unite under one banner."

 
 

The reply is absolutely correct. Ancient conquest was done for a reason, usually financial. It was normally nomadic people or poor people attacking the more well off settled people on raids to steal their money and food, and sometimes to got lucky and an entire empire that was already in severe decline fell (i.e. Arab conquest). Other cases usually involved empires conquering areas that could provide additional tax and resources to their empires. The idea was not land grab to create a bigger map. Empty or poor land had not value. Even as late a few centuries ago Ottomans did not conquer Arabia with the exception small coastal areas. There was nothing there to conquer until oil came into the picture late in the 20th century.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2007 at 15:09
hani again, i would like one of those days you continue arguing your point instead of making one comment and disappear for months, but anyway with your history in racist comments you will be banned if you continued arguing, so far your strategy is good for your survival Wink.
 
so your above post as usual isn't logical,  lets say Arabs lands ( Arabian peninsula and some surroundings) as the replay has nothing to even be conquered and as you said empty or poor land had no value.
 
then Why did the Ethiopians and the Persians conquered Yemen?!
 
as i mentioned earlier Arabian peninsula is not just desert, it has a variety of geographical features plus the location, add to that it was mentioned that more than 2000 years ago Alexander the Great was planning to conquer Arabia.
 
therefore the "replay" is NOT absolutely correct.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2007 at 21:50
Originally posted by azimuth azimuth wrote:

hani again, i would like one of those days you continue arguing your point instead of making one comment and disappear for months, but anyway with your history in racist comments you will be banned if you continued arguing, so far your strategy is good for your survival Wink.
 
 
 

Here you go again, lose an argument and out of frustration you try blow people up, amazing how things sometimes resemble the real world. It is because of this destructive behavior of people like you that this forum has been in such a severe decline.

You know what, I make it easy for you and ban myself and join the rest of the people that actually had something to say. Now you can go tell all the 4 people that may read this thread, including yourself, how wonderful the 100000 years of Arabian history has been, and who knows you may actually convince yourself Wink

Best of luck

Hani
 
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