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Forum LockedRuszki & Kiernozia 39- Panzers crushed by infantry

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2009 at 23:31
I think we're quite off-topic now. But names like Bülow or Bredow mustn't indicate a slavic origin. It can be place-names as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2009 at 18:36
but those names are slavic, many names in the East are slavic, like Chemnitz and Leipzig and so on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2009 at 23:17
Yes, the names are slavic but not necessary the owners. But we're hijacking the thread.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2009 at 13:50
Some more data:

According to record data in all cemeteries there are 67,177 Polish soldiers & officers who lost their lives in September and October of 1939 (or died of wounds later), resting in peace.

According to calculations of Polish Ministry of National Defense from October of 1944, Polish casualties in combats against the Soviet forces were 20,000 killed or wounded - which is at least around 10% of all Polish casualties during the Polish Defensive War of 1939.

Ukrainian Front reported capturing 394,498 prisoners (or 394,334 according to different data) and - among other equipment - at least 291,183 rifles, 28,510 pistols, at least 3,731 heavy machine guns, etc.

Belorussian Front reported capturing 60,202 prisoners (I don't have any info about captured equipment).

Polish casualties in the coastal region (combats against the Germans) were reported as:

107 killed officers
2143 killed soldiers and NCOs

86 wounded officers
2144 wounded soldiers and NCOs

Total: 4480 killed and wounded - 95% of these casualties were suffered by Lądowa Obrona Wybrzeża under command of pułkownik Dąbek - which on 31st of August 1939 had got around 14,700 men (75% of all forces defending the Polish coastal region) - around 12,300 of them (including around 300 officers) - including wounded - surrendered to the Germans after 17:30 on 19th of September 1939.

Lądowa Obrona Wybrzeża (LOW) was fighting for 19 days - 01.09.1939 - 19.09.1939 - during this period units of LOW fought around 120 battles and combats.

On 31st of August 1939 LOW had got:

- 10,284 rifles
- 308 lmg
- 138 hmg
- 3 machine pistols
- 52 AA hmg
- 18 grenade launchers 46mm
- 19 infantry mortars 81 mm
- 10 AT guns 37mm
- 7 old type 37mm guns, taken from ships
- 6 heaviest machine guns (calibre over 10mm up to 20mm)
- 6 infantry guns 75mm
- 8 AA guns
- 7 x 75mm field guns
- 4 x 105mm guns
- 2 x 100mm guns (one of them destroyed by Luftwaffe yet on 1st of September)
- 2 x 76,2mm guns

German forces opposing LOW had got almost 3 / over 2 times more men, 4-times more machine guns, 9-times more artillery. Each day they were firing more ammunition than the whole LOW had got during the whole defence.

Soldiers of LOW:








Edited by Domen - 04-Feb-2009 at 18:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2009 at 16:14
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:


i'm surprized Domen was so happy that a Polish sniper killed a descendant of his own people... Confused


During the Gefecht bei Osięciny:

http://osieciny.pl/?id=116

Polish forces were commanded by major Aleksander Wilhelm Hertklein and German forces were commanded by Leutnant von Kuczkowski... Wacko

During the combat of Osięciny Polish forces lost 3 KIA (
Marian Lesowski, Jan Wyczyński and Kazimierz Jakubowski) and German forces lost 1 KIA (Karl Pieper), 1 MIA, 2 WIA and 2 horses KIA.


Edited by Domen - 17-Feb-2009 at 16:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2009 at 17:50

Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

But if you think war is a crime I will agree with you, but then all wars please.

Belligerent wars, I think. One can hardly be faulted for taking up arms in defence of hearth and home. War on the invader is a natural right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2009 at 18:13

I spoke of war, not of defend oneselves. But in most cases it needs two to have a quarrel. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2009 at 19:16
Originally posted by edgewaters edgewaters wrote:


Belligerent wars, I think. One can hardly be faulted for taking up arms in defence of hearth and home. War on the invader is a natural right.


not to spark an intellectual discussion on ethics, but does self-defence entitle one to commit "any means necessary" (like war-crimes) then? because self-defense is a good excuse for pretty much everything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Husaria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 04:21
Killing in defense of home is definitely justifiable, but how far you take that is debatable. Take the Eastern front for example, while the Russians were justifiable in defending themselves, but using that "defense" as a clause for a underlying reason  of "liberation" of east bloc countries is not justifiable at all. 
"The best tank terrain is that without anti-tank weapons."
-Russian military doctrine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 05:25
Originally posted by Husaria Husaria wrote:

Killing in defense of home is definitely justifiable, but how far you take that is debatable. Take the Eastern front for example, while the Russians were justifiable in defending themselves, but using that "defense" as a clause for a underlying reason  of "liberation" of east bloc countries is not justifiable at all. 
 
If this is the case, then Operation Overlord of June 6, 1944 and the subsequent invasion of Europe by the Western Allies is a warcrime.  In this perspective the whole participation of the US in the war seems hardly justifiable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 05:33
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:



not to spark an intellectual discussion on ethics, but does self-defence entitle one to commit "any means necessary" (like war-crimes) then? because self-defense is a good excuse for pretty much everything.
 
I don't think any kind of war crimes can be justifiable. Sometimes one can understand the reasons behind certain crimes, but this is not justification.
 
This is, however, only a theoretical discussion. In the real life, "the winner is always right" and "vae victis" !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2009 at 18:42
well i wasn't thinking about the SU at all in that case, SovietUnion responded in kind, and even if we look at the allied carpet bombigns on Germany we can say they are not without German precedent. what i ahd in midn was the pacific theater...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Husaria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 02:15
Is that so? I don't remember all the countries behind western Germany becoming satellites of America prone  to American policy and government. No doubt There was American influence but no were near the degree that Russia had placed on eastern Europe. Russian Liberation might as well have been Russian assimilation. 
"The best tank terrain is that without anti-tank weapons."
-Russian military doctrine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 18:05
Well. USSR infulence was forced on the Eastern European countires, of course. But the degree the influence in Eastern Europe was different in different countries. And some of them even managed to retain a large degree of independence in foreign affairs.
 
Also, I don't understand your point about the assimilation, cause all of those countries had their own national states and nobody planned to transform them or reassimilate into "Russians."
 
There was indeed strong Russian cultural influence including Russian language, music, movies etc. But that could be very comparable to the American influence on the other part of the world behind the iron curtain.
 
Finally, in my opnion, that still was liberation in a sense that it granted the survival of such states and ethnic groups as Czechs and Poles, for example, whom Germans planned to assimilate and extinguish complitely.
 
And while the Soviet rule came with the very heavy ideological yoke and lack of political and economic freedom it saved those nations from the gloomy fate that Hitler had planned for them.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Husaria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 20:07
Seems like a case of jumping from the fire into the frying pan if you ask me.
"The best tank terrain is that without anti-tank weapons."
-Russian military doctrine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2009 at 22:02
I don't know. But just think about how many people in Poland lost lives during the Nazi occupation.
 
I would say it's like a difference between the death sentence and a term at a relaxed POW camp. 
 
Of course it was a choice between two evils, but the Peoples Republic of Poland was still a much better choice than the Polish occupied territories of the IIID Reich.


Edited by Sarmat - 20-Feb-2009 at 14:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Husaria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2009 at 06:29
I can see were your coming from but, I think we can agree that either one sucks.

Edited by Husaria - 20-Feb-2009 at 06:31
"The best tank terrain is that without anti-tank weapons."
-Russian military doctrine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2009 at 06:58
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

I don't know. But just think about how many people in Poland lost lives during the Nazi occupation.
 
I would say it's like a difference between the death sentence and a term at a relaxed POW camp. 
 
Of course it was a choice between two evils, but the Peoples Republic of Poland was still a much better choice that the Polish occupied territories of the IIID Reich.
 
It would be hard not to agree with that tesisApprove.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2009 at 13:09
Manstein in his "Lost Victories", pages 61 - 62, expressed the following opinion about the German campaign in Poland:

"The enemy's losses in blood were undoubtedly very high indeed, for he had fought with great gallantry and had shown a grim determination to hold out in even the most hopeless situations. [...]
Before long the Polish campaign was being described as the blitzkrieg - the "lighting war". Indeed, as far as its speed of execution and the outcome were concerned, it did constitute something almost unique until the German offensive in the west produced a similar development on an even bigger scale.
In order to assess it fairly, however, one must bear in mind what was said in a previous chapter about Poland's prospects in this war.
In point of fact the Germans were bound to win this campaign by virtue of their superiority and their infinitely more favourable starting conditions, provided that two stipulations were fulfilled.
One was that the German command accepted a very high degree of risk in the west in order to have the necessary superiority in the east.
The other was that the Western Powers did not in any way exploit this risk to render timely aid to the Poles.
There cannot be any doubt that things might have turned out very differently had the Wester Powers taken the offensive in the west at the earliest possible moment. This would, of course, have presupposed the existence of a Polish command with a rather greater sense of reality - a command which, instead of scattering all its resources from the outset in an effort to cling on to what could not be held, would have concentrated its forces at the crucial points and fought systematically for the time needed to confront the Germans with the dilema of a real war on two fronts. The bravery with which the Polish troops fought right up to the end would have been an adequate guarantee of their ability to hold on until the Allies reached the Rhine and forced the German command seriously to consider calling off the campaign in Poland."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2009 at 12:24
This map is showing situation in South-Eastern Poland in the morning on 17.09.1939:

Scale 1 : 4 000 000



Legend:

Blue points - major or important localities

DP / ID = Infantry Division
D - Division
BK = Cavalry Brigade
B = Brigade
BP = Infantry Brigade
G = Mountain / Gebirgs
Pz = Armoured / Panzer
L = Light Panzer / Leichte Panzer
M = Motorized

Thick red line - Polish military cover & lines of military posts (usually along rivers)

Polish Great Units (WJ) and other most important units:

ND + Polish flag = Main Headquarters of the Polish Army (in Kolomyja)

BK W - BK Wolkowysk
SUW - Suwalska BK
POD - Podlaska BK

60 - 60 DP
DB - Infantry Division Brzoza (later 50 DP)

M - Mazowiecka BK
N - Nowogródzka BK
KR - Kresowa BK
W - Wołyńska BK
KBZ - Kombinowana BK Zakrzewskiego
1 - 1 DP
10 - 10 DP
41 - 41 DP
33 - 33 DP
39 - 39 DP
3 B - 3 BP
13 B - 13 BP
19 B - 19 BP
29 B - 29 BP

GO SZ - Group Szack
12 - 12 DP (during reconstruction)
36 - 36 DP (during reconstruction)

WBPM - Warszawska Armoured - Motorized Brigade
23 - 23 DP
55 - 55 DP
6 - 6 DP
GF - Fortification Group Slask
K - Krakowska BK
S - Group Sandomierz
T - Group of lt col Trzebunia

GO W - Operational Group Wlodzimierz Wolynski

Zgr Pz - Armoured Grouping in Luck

13 - 13 DP (during reconstruction)

11 - 11 DP
24 - 24 DP
38 - 38 DP

10 B - 10 Motorized Brigade
35 - 35 DP
GG - Group Grodno
GŻ - Group Zolkiew

GS - Group Stryj
3 BG - 3 Mountain Brigade
B KOP K - Karpacka ON Brigade
GD - Group Drohobycz

21 bPz - 21 Light Tanks Battalion

German Great Units (WJ) and other most important units:

G - Brigade Goldap
23 - 23 ID
L - Brigade Loetzen
21 - 21 ID
206 - 206 ID

2 M - 2 Motorized Division
10 Pz - 10 Panzer Division
20 M - 20 Motorized Division
3 Pz - 3 Panzer Division

4 L - 4 Leichte Panzer Division (forces divided into two groups)
2 Pz - 2 Panzer Division (forces divided into two groups)
14 - 14 ID
4 - 4 ID
68 - 68 ID
27 - 27 ID
8 - 8 ID
28 - 28 ID
45 - 45 ID
44 - 44 ID
7 - 7 ID (forces divided into two groups)
1 G - 1 Gebirgs Division
57 - 57 ID (forces divided into two groups)
SS G - remnants of SS Germania
2 G - 2 Gebirgs Division
5 Pz - 5 Panzer Division
56 - 56 ID

Edited by Domen - 27-Apr-2009 at 17:45
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