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Forum LockedRuszki & Kiernozia 39- Panzers crushed by infantry

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2008 at 23:19
Originally posted by Majkes Majkes wrote:

This discussion ia really amusing. I think our Germans colleagues think we are completelly crazy and think Poland would have beat Germany if not SU attackUnhappy.
That's what it seems
Originally posted by Majkes Majkes wrote:

And Beorna really amused me when He talked about Polish pre war propoganda. In his opinion our goverment should have been saying that we'll lose, let's run away. So we should lay down and wait for execution. That would be not chauvinistic. Really if You know countries that are to be attacked by the neighbourg and scream they will lose please anknowledge us.
I can't see where I said this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2008 at 23:33
Originally posted by Majkes Majkes wrote:

 
Please don't put us this nazi crap propaganda. 
Yes, Polish were happy when German attacked, surely they danced on the streetsLOL and in Germany there was a mourning. I'm waiting when You start to claim that Poland started the war. Your opinions are as idiotic as opinion that Poland would win the war if not Soviet Union's attack.
Simple Germans were happy with the war until they started to lose it and opposition against Hitler was tiny.
I can't see what it has to do with Nazi propaganda. I know that the Nazi government accused Poland of an anti-German policy especially against the German minority. But do you want to say that the Polish government was no nationalistic undemocratic regime? Weren't there voices that wanted to invade Germany and to take Berlin? Was your government a peaceful one? So there is a difference between the German invasion into the Czech Republik and the Polish participation? And what was in the 20th. I did not say Poland started the war. Such an accuse is - let me say it in your own words - idiotic. And I am convinced Hitler had invaded Poland in any case. But Polish government gave him a lot of amunition and made it easier for him.
BTW. Simple German weren't happy with the war. There was a great fear, because they could rember to WWI. When Poland was overrun and the Balkan and Skandinavia and France untill 1940 it changed. Lots of Germans were deeply impressed by those succesful campaigns., so that they supported Hitler's policy. But it doesn't last for long.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 10:04
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

Originally posted by Majkes Majkes wrote:

And Beorna really amused me when He talked about Polish pre war propoganda. In his opinion our goverment should have been saying that we'll lose, let's run away. So we should lay down and wait for execution. That would be not chauvinistic. Really if You know countries that are to be attacked by the neighbourg and scream they will lose please anknowledge us.
I can't see where I said this.
 
When the war began at the 1st of September, only in one capitol people were chearing. Since month placards were hanging in the streets that were calling for to march to the neighbour's capitol, chauvinistic politicians were calling for annexions of great parts of their neighbour country. This was not Berlin - it was Warsaw. Polish newsletter were cheering for a Polish successful march on Berlin, even when German troops stood before Bromberg, they spoke about French campaigns through the Westwall and of success in East Prussia allthough no Polish soldier ever went to.
 
Your own words or someone was posting from Your computer?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 11:10
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

I can't see what it has to do with Nazi propaganda. I know that the Nazi government accused Poland of an anti-German policy especially against the German minority. But do you want to say that the Polish government was no nationalistic undemocratic regime? Weren't there voices that wanted to invade Germany and to take Berlin?
 
It was nationalistic and undemocratic like most goverments in Europe this time but far from facism. When Germans remilitarizied Rehn region Pilsudki asked France and England to attack Germany and throw the nazis out. We see now how many people that move would save. later on there were only voices that when we are attack by Germany we'll conquer Berlin. I don't see anything strange in it. It's simple propoganda.
 
Was your government a peaceful one? So there is a difference between the German invasion into the Czech Republik and the Polish participation? And what was in the 20th.
 
Much peacufull than German for sure. Yes, there is a diffrence. Germany wanted to annihilate Czech Republic, Poland wanted to take back territory grabbed by Czech Republic 20 years earlier in the same way while Poland was fighting SU. Though it was a very bad thing to cooperate with Nazi regime. And in 20th Poland was fighting for its survival. There was a war with SU, Ukrainians, Germans, Lithuanians and Czech grabbed Zaolzie. So I don't know what You mean by what was in 20s.
 
I did not say Poland started the war. Such an accuse is - let me say it in your own words - idiotic. And I am convinced Hitler had invaded Poland in any case. But Polish government gave him a lot of amunition and made it easier for him.
BTW. Simple German weren't happy with the war. There was a great fear, because they could rember to WWI. When Poland was overrun and the Balkan and Skandinavia and France untill 1940 it changed. Lots of Germans were deeply impressed by those succesful campaigns., so that they supported Hitler's policy. But it doesn't last for long.
[/QUOTE]
 
So You think Polish goverment should have been quiet and pretend that Germany who didn't recognize Polish border are our friends?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 13:57
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So You claim that Polish forces would gather somewhere around Lwow to counterattack


I didn't say anything about any counterattacks. On 17th of September after 17 days of destructive campaign Polish army was not strong enough to carry out any counterattacks.

I said about defence - and waiting for help of France and Britain.

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and Germans didn't have resources to conquer this region (e.g. lack of ammunition). May I ask how do You come up with this stories?


I gave my sources - general Mueller-Hillebrand (no - he is not Polish) book titled "Das Heer 1933-1945", volume 1, page 161.

+ knowledge about ammunition usage and production in September 1939.

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Somehow Germans didn't run out of ammunition in any of their campaigns therefore I don't think they would forget such a "small" detail attacking Poland.


Well - general Mueller-Hillebrand writes something different - and he does not "think" - he knows.

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Also I don't think that that Lwow region was most important in Poland and fall of Warsaw wasn't important. In fact it was dexciesive. So what there were still fights after this happened when these fights had no impact on result of the campaign.


To conquer Poland and destroy the Polish army the Germans would have had to capture Lwów, Romanian Bridgehead and other areas of Eastern Poland.

In real they didn't have to, because the Soviets did it for them.

Romanian Bridgehead was the most important for Poland, because our allies - France and Britain - were sending supplies for fighting Polish army across the Mediterranean and Black Sea, and later across Romania - via railways - to Kuty / Stanislavov / Kolomyja in Romanian Bridgehead.

Romanian Bridgehead was also the most important for Germany - because there (around Drohobycz and Stryj) - there were Polish resources of petroleum.

It was so called "Drohobycko-Stryjskie Petroleum Oilfield" - today it is in Ukraine and they still extract petroleum there - even though we have got year 2008.

They also had to conquer Romanian Bridgehead to have a possibility of conquering Romania in the future - and it was important for them (the biggest petroleum resources in Europe were in Romania).

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I don't think they would forget such a "small" detail attacking Poland.


They forgot about many "small" details attacking Poland - for example about France and Britain.

Hitler didn't want to start a World War when attacking Poland - he wanted to conquer Poland only (and at the beginning - even not the whole Poland, but only Gdansk / Danzig).

But they had got their "Ribbentrop-Molotov" agreement - and they didn't forget about it.

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so about 850000 captured after the Russian invasion, 450000 thousand captured from Russians and many who escaped to Romania? How many soldiers did you have?


On 1st of September Poland had got around 900,000 - 950,000 soldiers already mobilized - of them only around 70% were fully mobilized and concentrated (combat ready).

During the whole campaign Poland mobilized around 1,350,000 soldiers - including all reserves.

Many of them did not take part in combat either with the Germans or with the Soviets and also did not escape to Romania / Hungary / Lithuania - but just were demobilized after 17th of September - and went back their homes (for example major part of - very strong, much stronger than full-strength infantry division - Operational Group "Wlodzimierz Wolynski" was demobilized in this way - including all Ukrainians who served in its ranks, because after 17th of September they didn't want to fight with Russians).

On 1st of September some Polish units were officialy mobilized, but their real strength was much lower than it should be. For example 41. Infantry Division had got only strength of one, weak infantry regiment (it had got only 3 weak infantry battalions on 1st of September - it also had got only 4 AT guns, 4 mortars and 8 guns then).

Some units were destroyed before they were fully mobilized and before they gained full combat readiness - and soldiers which should have been serving in those units, were incorporated to other units or other units were formed of them.

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Poland never used larger formations of Cavalry than Brigade, left alone Cavalry Corps, so it is justified when i say the Polish Army mismanaged their Cavalry forces.


I agree - forming only brigades was not a very good way of using cavalry.

But during the campaign, some Operational Groups (GO) of cavalry were formed:

- GO Kaw. Number 1 - formed before the war
- GO Kaw. Number 2 - formed before the war (one cavalry brigade - Kresowa brigade + one cavalry regiment - so its real strength was only a little bit bigger than strength of one cavalry brigade)

- GO Kaw. gen. Romana Abrahama
- GO Kaw. gen. Władysława Andersa
- GO Kaw. gen. Grzmot-Skotnickiego
- GO Kaw. gen. Podhorskiego

We can say that such a Operational Group was a kind of improvised Corps.

They generally did well practically in all operations.

For example GO Kaw. of general Roman Abraham - Wielkopolska + Podolska Cavalry Brigades + remaining regiment of Pomorska CB - between 14th and 21st of September succesfully forced the way across Bzura (near Brochów) to Warsaw, through Kampinoska Primeval forest for the Polish forces of Army "Poznan", inflicting huge casualties to the Germans - especcialy to 1st Leichte-Division - which was later withdrawn from the front by the Germans because of very big casualties - 4. Panzer-Division, 29th Motorized Infanterie-Division and 31st Infanterie-Division).

GO. Kaw. of general Anders was also doing pretty well during the first stages of the battle of Tomaszów Lubelski - despite fighting against superior in numbers and equipment enemy - but later it suffered huge casualties due to huge mistakes commited by its commander after 17th of September (when he received information about the Soviet agression, he wanted to escape to Romania as fast as possible - and he abandoned big part of his forces, betraying his superior - general Dąb-Biernacki.

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Untill late 1935, germany had only 100k troops because of the Versailles treaty.


As you wrote - Reichswehr was in fact "a Wehrmacht in a pill" - it wasn't very hard for the Germans to transform 100k-Reichswer into several-million Wehrmach, because they actually had got it - but in a pill.

Those 100k troops were in fact all officers - all of them were trained to be officers.

And all of them were elite - because Germany could have only 100k troops, so it was choosing only the best ones to serve in the army.

To this we must add the fact of military cooperation of Germany and the Soviet Union before the war - and experiences which were gained by German officers in Soviet Union.

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Anyway about the quality of german forces in the polish campaign. Most Germans were like it or not raw recruits.

When Hitler began his rearmamant program the numbers rose quickly to nearly two million on the even of the Polish campaign. No way the  Nazis could have trained all these men by that time.


As far as I know the Germans had got huge reserves of trained recruits (I mean - men who were after compulsory military service) - bigger than Poland (and Poland had got over 3 millions of such men as far as I remember - but there was not enough armament for so many of them).

So they were not "raw recruits" - but trained recruits - although the majority of them did not participate in real war before (as well as even bigger percent of Polish soldiers).

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As for the Polish campaing. I am with Domen that Poland could have at least delayed the Germans for enough time so that the French grow some backbone and end Nazi Germany from the South. I don't agree with him however in his opinion that Poland could have won.


And that is what I want to say - only the first of these two statements. I don't say that Poland could have beat Germany alone - without France.

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I only wrote that if not the Soviet invasion there was a chance for further, longer than in real, resistance.


well, I can agree with this. But how long and with what result?


Well, who knows. It depends.

But I suppose that at least around twice as long as in real (so around 2 months - not 1 month and 5-6 days).

In extremely comfortable (for the Polish side) conditions maybe longer. Marschal Rydz-Smigly planned to resist and hold on in Romanian Bridgehead as long as until the Spring of 1940 (so around 6 - 7 months).

You know that Autumn, Winter and Spring - especcialy in former Eastern Poland (today Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania) are not very comfortable for Panzerwaffe and Luftwaffe as well as for motorized forces.

But any organised resistance longer than 2,5 months could have been carried out only thanks to supplies from France and Britain - because Poland itself had got enough ammunition only for around 2 - 2,5 months of intensive war.

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All the engagements that the Polish successded in were small action, Brigade or division level victories. This war was fought on corps and field Army levels and the Poles lost every major engagement there.


In general - yes. But there were a few exceptions (on Corps level).

There was also one moderate succes on army level - the first phase of the battle of Bzura was a succes on army level - the whole 8. Army was pushed aside and suffered heavy casualties - and its 30. Infanterie-Division was completely defeated and crushed. But the Polish offensive at the Bzura was soon ended by orders to withdraw from the Polish commanders, who lost their belief in possibility of completely beating the whole 8. Army.

It was especcialy fault of general Bortnowski - who suffered from nervous breakdown since his army suffered huge casualties during the battle of Bory Tucholskie in Pomerelian Corridor.

It was Bortnowski who forced general Kutrzeba (who had got weak character and easily agreed with Bortnowski) to stop the offensive.

But the battle at the Bzura in general - although it ended with the Polish defeat - was a Polish strategical and operational success - because it forced the Germans to involve there the major part of their forces in Poland - including the majority of Luftwaffe. Other parts of the frontline were relieved thanks to the battle of Bzura.

There was also a big chance to win the battle of Tomaszów Lubelski and Lwów (on army level) if not the Soviet agression.

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Their armies were encircled by the end of the second week of the campaign


Only some of them, not all.

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and by the 17th, the Germans achieved all the strategic objectives they planned.


Here I cannot agree - they did not achieve all strategic objectives they planned. They didn't even achieve yet the main objectives of their "Fall 5 September" which was ordered on 5th of September 1939 - so 12 days before.

"Fall 5 September" was ordered on 5th of September, when the Germans realized, that they would not manage to encircle and destroy Polish army west of the river Vistula - and in fact - they did not.

But they also did not manage to complete objectives of "Fall 5 September" - including its main objective - encircling Polish armies east of the river Vistula.

It is sometimes said that Guderian was doing excellent during the Polish campaign (that he was "unrestricted") - while in fact it was so only during the first phase of the campaign.

XIX Corps of Guderian failed in completing all of its major tasks during the second part of the campaign - it was stopped and repulsed by units of the Northern Front (Operational Group of Piekarski - 2 infantry divisions) in the south (near Chełm Lubelski and Sawin) and by 60. Infantry Division from Operational Group "Polesie" in the east - near Kobryn.

Also units of 14. Army did not manage to complete their objectives which were ordered to them in "Fall 5 September" - they completed only some of these objectives, but the most important ones were not completed (including capturing of Lwów and connecting with forces of Guderian in region of Włodawa or Chełm Lubelski - so encircling the Polish army).

They did not manage to capture Lwów and the did not also manage to encircle it or to isolate Lwów from the rest of the country or from the Polish units in Romanian Bridgehead in any way - even on 19th of September - when the Soviets were already at the outskirsts of Lwów - railway transports were still going across Lwów from the south-western part of the country towards Romanian Bridgehead.

More over - the Germans lost some ground near Lwów on 16th and 17th of September due to successes of Polish 10. Motorized Brigade near Zboiska - which would have soon lead to connecting with forces of Sosnkowski, which were fighting west of Lwów and trying to get to the region north of Lwów (between Lwów and Żółkiew).

4. Leichte-Division - which was ordered to establish contact with forces of Guderian near Chełm Lubelski or Włodawa - was stopped and repulsed by the Poles (Operational Group "Wlodzimierz Wolynski" of general Sawicki) near Włodzimierz Wolynski - and had to retreat to the area of Rawa Ruska - Tomaszow Lubelski - and regroup there.

Also IV Armee-Korps from 10. Army - 4. and 14. Infanterie-Divisionen - did not manage to capture Chelm Lubelski, as they were ordered - because first they were delayed by Polish units near Lublin, and later were stopped by units from the Northern Front (mainly 39. Infantry Division from Operational Group of general Kruszewski).

The last few days before the Soviet agression were days during which the Germans were almost always failing while trying to complete all of their most important tasks.

And on 18th of September the battle of Tomaszów Lubelski beginned - by unexpected attack of the Polish forces on the German 4. Leichte-Division in Tomaszow Lubelski and the area around it...


Edited by Domen - 28-Dec-2008 at 15:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 17:49
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

I can't see what it has to do with Nazi propaganda. I know that the Nazi government accused Poland of an anti-German policy especially against the German minority. But do you want to say that the Polish government was no nationalistic undemocratic regime? Weren't there voices that wanted to invade Germany and to take Berlin? Was your government a peaceful one? So there is a difference between the German invasion into the Czech Republik and the Polish participation? And what was in the 20th. I did not say Poland started the war. Such an accuse is - let me say it in your own words - idiotic. And I am convinced Hitler had invaded Poland in any case. But Polish government gave him a lot of amunition and made it easier for him.
 
Yes. Unfortunately, a lot of people forget that the foreign policy of Poland before the war was absolutely not peaceful at all. As I said before, it was an aggressive military dictatorship that was bullying its neighbors and dreaming about "new lands" in the East. And Czech crisis was not the only one when the Polish dictatorship cooperated with Hitler there were other instances as well. Check, for example, this out:
 
 
And yes, besides the above, ethnic minorities were descriminated in Poland that gave perfect reasons for both Germany and USSR to invade.
 
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

BTW. Simple German weren't happy with the war. There was a great fear, because they could rember to WWI. When Poland was overrun and the Balkan and Skandinavia and France untill 1940 it changed. Lots of Germans were deeply impressed by those succesful campaigns., so that they supported Hitler's policy. But it doesn't last for long.
 
AFAIK Germans were not happy with the war at all including the military headquaters; and this kind of scepticism was present until the time when France was overrun. Only then many Germans somehow were convinced in the "great abilities" of the Furher and somekind of selfconfidence appeared.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 18:03
well, Domen is right that the thread has gone off-topic. we'll leave this thread to be discussed about Ruszki & Kiernozia. all discussion about whether or not Poland could have defeated Germany with France or not and so on will have to go to a new thread in historical amusement because it is a "what if" discussion. whether or not Poland was a good or bad country before the invasion is also not a matter of militarical importance here. at the end of the day, Germany & Soviet Union were the aggressors.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 19:55
Hello Domen
 
I hope you open a new thread for a more expanded discussion on the invasion of Poland as a whole. I think you are more qualified to start the discussion than me, since you are Polish and I am not.
 
As for what you said, training 100k men is easy, training 2 million in just 4 years is a bit difficult. Yes there were trained paramilitaries in Germany but these are not professional soldiers. To train a professional soldier you need time, lots of it. An ordinary infantryman takes from 3 to 6 months at the most. This contains both basic training and combat training as well as maneuvers and such. Germans only had about half a million men in the army by early 38, the real expansion came much later, since the summer of 38. this means almost 1.5 million were incorporated during this time (and according to some sources even more). Now training this number, of officers and soldiers, is almost impossible in that short time.
 
There is no doubt that the reicheswehr was the finest collection of officers in any army in the world, but wars are fought with foot soldiers and Germany didn't have that much of them in the Polish campaign.
 
As for the Lwow pocket, I must admit, I am not well versed in this subject but one should remember, Lwow, as far as I understand, was in the Soviet area of occupation, Germany had no interest, yet, in taking Lwow or reaching to Romania. The Germans wanted three things: Warsaw, Danzig and the lands west of the Wisla. All these were secured by the 17th.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 20:41
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As for the Lwow pocket,


It was not a pocket. The Germans did not manage to isolate or encircle Lwow.

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Lwow, as far as I understand, was in the Soviet area of occupation, Germany had no interest, yet, in taking Lwow or reaching to Romania.


At the beginning (before the agreement about the demarcation line on 20th and 21st of September was signed) Lwow was in the German sphere of interests if I remember correctly. Later they changed Lwow to the Soviets for the area between the rivers Vistula and Bug (because at the beginning the Soviet sphere of interests was east of Vistula, not east of Bug).

There were at least three different versions of German-Soviet demarcation lines, before the final one was established.

And btw - they had to have interest in it, because they ordered their two (or rather 1,5) Panzer divisions to carry out offensive against the Romanian Bridgehead - across the city of Lwow.

Later this offensive was cancelled because of the Soviet agression.

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The Germans wanted three things: Warsaw, Danzig and the lands west of the Wisla. All these were secured by the 17th.


They also wanted to encircle and destroy the Polish army east of the Wisla - which was ordered in "Fall 5 September" - and it was not completed by the 17th of September.

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and dreaming about "new lands" in the East.


Not in the East certainly - in the East they had got enough.

If they had been dreaming about new lands in the East, they would have simply taken them in 1921 - because the Soviets were ready to give the whole Ukraine and the whole Belarus to Poland after they lost the war of 1919 - 1921 - as the price for peace.

But Poland refused to taking those lands, because it was afraid of too big amount of agrresive and hostile minorities.

Poland not only did not take those lands, but simply left them to the Soviets without any demands - just left them.

It was a mistake - because by this move in 1921 Poland simply left its Ukrainian allies (Ataman Semen Petrula) on their own - and did not use the occasion to create an independent state of Ukraine between its and Soviet territories - as it planned before the Soviet counteroffensive and the battle of Warsaw (the Polish army - together with reinforcements of Semen Petrula - even captured Kiev).

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Unfortunately, a lot of people forget that the foreign policy of Poland before the war was absolutely not peaceful at all. As I said before, it was an aggressive military dictatorship that was bullying its neighbors.


But it was only after May of 1926 - when Pilsudski and Sanatia get the power - and especcialy after 1935, when Pilsudski died (because he was rather peacfull and as long as he lived he had got big influence on everything which was happening in the country - later - not).

They were later slowly transforming Poland from a democratic country which it was before 1926 - towards authoritarianism (not a dictatorship for shure - rather authoritarianism - rules of group of people mainly related to the armed forces - old "friends" of Pilsudski from the Polish Legionaries from the times of World War I).

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And yes, besides the above, ethnic minorities were descriminated in Poland that gave perfect reasons for both Germany and USSR to invade.


Ethnic minorities were not discriminated in Poland by any official organization or the government.

All organizations / groups of people which were trying to discriminate ethnic minorities were being recognized by the government as illegal (for example anti-Jewish organization ONR "Phalanx").

But there were some separatistic Ukrainian organizations and Jewish-Belorussian pro-revolutionary, communistic organizations - these were mainly terroristic organizations - and the government was eliminating them for obvious reasons - the same as those because of which - for example - Spain and France were fighting with Basque people.

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And Czech crisis was not the only one when the Polish dictatorship cooperated with Hitler there were other instances as well. Check, for example, this out:
 


Not only Poland was hostile towards Lithuania, but also Lithuania was hostile towards Poland - they didn't like that Poland had got Wilno (even though Wilno was inhabited by the Polish majority and only approximately 2-3% of all its inhabitants were Lithuanians - fewer than Jews / Belorussians / Russians and even local German minority), they also wanted some other Polish territories for themselves.

And Poland wanted also Kaunas - some radical groups even wanted to invade Lithuania and capture the whole of it.

And - by the way - Polish secret service established, that the Lithuanian secret service was cooperating with the Soviet one in case of infiltration of Poland. Lithuanians were also trying to block Polish river trades.

So it worked in both ways - not in one way. Both Poland and Lithuania were hostile and agressive towards each other, not only Poland towards Lithuania.

Enough to say, that before the Polish ultimatum to Lithuania - Polish-Lithuanian relations were so cold, that there were no embassys and no diplomatic relations at all - and borders were closed.

After the Polish ultimatum, situation got better, borders were opened and Polish-Lithuanian diplomatic contacts were established again. But of course this "friendship" was faked and caused by force:

Here is an original video about it:

"Lithuania accepts Polish peaceful propositions":

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=uxuqbkb1CEc&feature=channel_page

And military parade in Wilno - "favorite city of marschal Pilsudski" - after accepting Polish ultimatum by Lithuania.

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Here too, I agree. Polish troops fought brave. This is even reported, e.g. in OKW reports. Nobody's speaking of Polish chicken.


It is true. As you wrote - even the German combat reports (as well as chronicles such as "Wir zogen gegen Polen") in most cases say about bravery and fierce resistance of the enemy, which is unusual and rare for the whole World War II - especcialy Eastern front where the enemy was considered as someone worse, "Untermenschen", and was ususaly showed in this way, even during late stages of the war, when the Germans were starting to fail in the Eastern Front.

But the German propaganda was saying something totally different than official reports about bravery of the Poles - it was trying to show Polish soldiers in a very bad light - for example famous video "Kampfgeschwader Lutzow":

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=GzuypvnmCBw&NR=1

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=X25lanYgSro&feature=channel_page

In this video Poles were charging against tanks with sabers or running away after first shot.

More over - and what is very funny - Polish gun or AT gun shot from several dozen metres was doing nothing to the German tank according to this video.

Another stupid thing is in 1:01 - when a German soldier destroys Polish machine gun - which is around 0,5 metre (OK - maybe 2 metres) away from himself - by a grenade LOL - and nothing happens to him Clap.


Edited by Domen - 28-Dec-2008 at 21:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 21:57
By the way - some interesting quotations:

British general, weekly-summing up report from Chiefs of Staff Commitee to War Cabinet - 8th of September 1939 (fragment):

"U.S.S.R.
33. There have been rumours ever since the German-Soviet non-aggression pact was signed on 22nd August that a military pact was also contemplated. Certain Soviet Officers have gone to Berlin but there is no confirmation yet that a military pact will be concluded. The reports of Soviet military concentrations on her Western frontiers are not conclusive and appear, at present, to be no more than is reasonable under the present circumstances. There are few signs that the Soviet is yet likely to abandon the policy of leeting other nations fight, while she waits to reap the benefits later."

Similar report from 13th of September 1939 (fragment):

"SOVIET RUSSIA.
33. It is estimated, that of approx. 4,000,000 men now with the Red Army approx. 1 1/2-million are concentrated on or near the Polish frontier. It is reported that transport and material are being requisitioned and the railways leading to the Polish frontier have been closed to normal traffic. One report states that these measures appear to have been taken with the knoweldge of the German Government, but this cannot yet be accepted as definite.
Propaganda has been chiefly directed, against Poland and Great Britain, though the tone of the press has not been particularly favourable to Germany."

===============================================

And here another photo of "534" destroyed during the battle of Ruszki on 16th of September (probably the best one):







Edited by Domen - 29-Dec-2008 at 22:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2009 at 23:07
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Here too, I agree. Polish troops fought brave. This is even reported, e.g. in OKW reports. Nobody's speaking of Polish chicken.


Here is a photo taken by German infantry soldier - Hugo Jaeger - during the Polish campaign (most probably on 19th or 20th of September):



Can our German friends translate it Wink ???


Edited by Domen - 02-Jan-2009 at 23:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 00:04
Originally posted by Domen Domen wrote:

They look good in German helms probably only if they are like these ones:



I wished you had the same respect!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 10:37
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I wished you had the same respect!


I wished all of German soldiers had the same respect:





Nice Panzers! - German 29. Motorized Division had no Panzers!

Angriff !! - very nice "Angriff"!

"Tapfere Ponische Soldaten" killed 22 men of Oberstleutnant Walther Wessel from 29. Motorized Division in Forest Dabrowa (near Ciepielow), before they were defeated - including 14 from 1st Kompanie - among them "favourite" officer of Mr. Wessel - Hauptmann von Lewinski - who was killed by Polish sniper by one shot from a tree, and after he shot von Lewinski (head-shot), he was spotted and killed by other officer and "knocked out" from a pistol:

Later German soldiers panicked and ran into the forest, where the Poles killed 13 more of them - but soon other companies arrived with relief and situation was again under control, Polish soldiers surrendered:



So Mr. Wessel got angry - he was screaming in his anger:

"Where is my Lewinski !! - they killed my Lewinski !!!, they killed my Lewinski !!"

And ordered to execute Polish POWs, breaking the Law of War... :





During the same day Oberstleutnant Wessel and his men once again took bloody revenge for the death of their von Lewinski and 21 other men - this time on innocent civilians -, murdering several dozen civilians in Ciepielów - including 10-year old little girl - Zosia Wrzochal....



Edited by Domen - 03-Jan-2009 at 10:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 11:01
I am talking about you.
But if you think war is a crime I will agree with you, but then all wars please. It's funny but I don't know a nation that started an unjust, unwarranted war. I never heard from politicians: "Come on we rob our peaceful neighbours". Everybody calls his war just.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2009 at 20:05
Originally posted by Domen Domen wrote:



So Mr. Wessel got angry - he was screaming in his anger:

"Where is my Lewinski !! - they killed my Lewinski !!!, they killed my Lewinski !!"



why do Poles kill their own people?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2009 at 00:28
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

Originally posted by Domen Domen wrote:



So Mr. Wessel got angry - he was screaming in his anger:

"Where is my Lewinski !! - they killed my Lewinski !!!, they killed my Lewinski !!"



why do Poles kill their own people?
 
LOL that's actually interesting. I was always wondering if those nobles from Prussia with names finished with "ski" were of Polish origin or where else their names come from
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2009 at 22:15
Mr. Von Lewinski actually seems to be of Jewish origin.

Edited by Sarmat - 05-Jan-2009 at 23:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2009 at 19:08
Originally posted by Majkes Majkes wrote:

 
LOL that's actually interesting. I was always wondering if those nobles from Prussia with names finished with "ski" were of Polish origin or where else their names come from


those are usually from Silesia with such names. other Prussians often end with Slavic -ow like Bredow, Bülow. those are similar to slavic names of Russia, Czechoslovakia and Bulgaria (-ov). other, non-noble Germans of those names are descendants of common Poles who migrated to Industrial Centers like the Ruhr area, or naval yards near Bremen and Hamburg and so on in the 19th century.

i'm surprized Domen was so happy that a Polish sniper killed a descendant of his own people... Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2009 at 16:30
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I am talking about you.


OK - sorry. I've already said that I didn't want to say something rude. It was supposed to be a joke, but probably it wasn't very funny.

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But if you think war is a crime I will agree with you, but then all wars please. It's funny but I don't know a nation that started an unjust, unwarranted war. I never heard from politicians: "Come on we rob our peaceful neighbours". Everybody calls his war just.


Yeah, that's true.

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I'm surprized Domen was so happy that a Polish sniper killed a descendant of his own people... Confused


And you would be surprized how many polonized descendants of German people as well as how many members of German minority in Poland who served in Polish Army, were killed by the Wehrmacht during Polenfeldzug Confused.

Even my grand grandfather surname was Meller (as well as my grandfather's surname) - but he did not fight in WW II (he fought in World War I and in Polish-Soviet war and of course survived - he died in 1978).

He received a medal but I'm not shure for which war - Polish-Soviet or WW I.

By the way - I've read somewhere that nowadays no more than 30% of all Germans (even if not including Turks) are descendants of ancient Germanian tribes.

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other Prussians often end with Slavic -ow like Bredow, Bülow. those are similar to slavic names of Russia, Czechoslovakia and Bulgaria (-ov).


Or maybe similar to forgotten Medieval names of native Prussians? - native Prussians were not destroyed, as many thinks - by the Teutonic Order and crusaders from the whole Europe who were helping it - they were simply conquered and Germanized.


Edited by Domen - 07-Jan-2009 at 16:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2009 at 19:54
native Prussians were not slavs but baltics though.
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