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Forum LockedRuszki & Kiernozia 39- Panzers crushed by infantry

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Klaus Fleming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2008 at 19:44

I applaud the existence of this thread because of these unique photographs.

In fact, I'd like to see more of them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2008 at 14:30
Here some different photos / interesting materials from Poland - 1939 - not really related to the topic of this thread:

Polish propaganda video made in September 1939, showing some of the wrecks of Luftwaffe planes which were shot down over Warsaw - "Shot down bandits over Warsaw":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2WMTuD5dBI

In Polish helms and Polish hats German soldiers look much better... :



They look good in German helms probably only if they are like these ones:



"Totentafel 3. Kompanie Panzer Regt. 3 Polenfeldzug":



Churchill invaded Poland together with the Germans!:



Burning palace in Kozienice:



"Polen Petrikau Piotrkow Bank Gebäude Werbung":



"Polen 06.09.1939 Kloster der schwarzen Madonna":







Fortunately love is stronger than war:



"Hey!, shoot me in the ass!":



Group of German POWs captured in Praga district (Warsaw):



"Oskar Prinz von PreuBen - gefallen am 5. September 1939":



And here several more photos - this time without any description (because there was an "interesting", short discussion on the previous page, I decided to check if anybody remembers also the other side of the medal).

I wonder if anybody of you will guess what do they show:

























Quote
Quote The majority of those tanks were later blown up by the Poles when they rejected the German forces and captured the battlefield.


I see mostly German soldiers on your pictures. What's the reason for it?


You can see German soldiers walking around destroyed and blown up by Polish sappers wrecks of Panzerwaffe tanks.

The Polish forces marched towards Warsaw after few days and the Germans captured the terrain.

Photos were made by the German soldiers / photographs.

====================================================

More photos:

One place in 1939 (church can be seen in the distance) - we can see German soldiers during combat:



And here the same place - the same church - today:



This is the church in Bojszowy - and those soldiers are soldiers of 5. Panzer-Division who were attacking there on 2nd of September - the area was defended by Polish II. battalion of 73. Infantry Regiment.

The Germans attacked at 14:00.

The Polish battalion was heavily outnumbered (like 10:1 in soldiers, in firepower - even much more) and had got support of only 1 howitzer.

The German soldiers - lead by Obst. Schuckelt - didn't manage to break the Polish resistance - and lost their only chance for operational succes yet on the second day of war.

The Poles resisted them until the evening (until 21:00 - when the Germans finally stopped their actions) and during the night succesfully withdrawed, destroying the only bridge on the river Gostynka behind them - that is why the Germans could not cross this river for the long time since that moment.

If they had won, they would have been able to cross the river on 2nd of September and they could have even encircled the whole Army "Cracow" - or at least part of it. But they didn't manage to do this and Army "Cracow" was fighting untill 21st of September 1939.

==========================

Another photo:

Destroyed German equipment after one of numerous combats against the Polish 10. Motorized Brigade somehwere in Beskid Wyspowy highland-mountain area:





Edited by Domen - 14-Dec-2008 at 16:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Husaria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2008 at 23:07
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

well it is obvious that some of the Polish people have huge complexes because of the fast defeat in ww2 and they want to show the world that Poles are fierce fighters nevertheless and didn't easily succumbed to the German war-machine. if you check the forum you'll see that some Poles spend a lot of time trying to proove the world that they had, amongst other things, the best cavalry of the world throughout history, and particularly Polish Hussaria was unbeatable and did defeat any enemy ever. just to sum it up.


Poles feel that way because it pisses many off that most people(none Poles particularly) think we did ludicrous things such as cavalary charges with lances and sabres against panzers or that ALL polish commanders were  romantic old fashioned incompetents(which there were some but it is unfair to label them all like that)also France is shown in a much more better light than Poland in the west. When you hear about the fall of France it sounds more like a france did all they could and that their was nothing wrong that they did. While Poland is crushed utterly like some ant. Ok you can do that but i find it ironic when the entire capture of Poland was longer than Frances. All these things just reinforce Polish stereotypes of fat dumb Poles siting on ponys. I am sure you have heard atleast one joke making fun of Polish intellegence. As for Hussaria i agree with you, thats just a matter of national pride thats realy more harmless than hurtful, Ive heard Germans(ones i know anyway) tell me how Poland got demolished by them in world war 2 as a brag anytime somthing like that is brought up so its not like were the only ones that do it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2008 at 18:06
yeah but it's interesting for me to observe how Poles make such a big deal out of it, Poland was hardly the only country that was overrun by the Wehrmacht, but I've never seen ex-Yugoslavians or Norwegians brag about their resisstance vs the Wehrmacht, even though Norwegians for example even sunk a German warship with coastal guns. or Greeks resistance vs the Italian invasion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2008 at 19:10

Wow, those are some great pics. 

I'm curious about the sentiment behind  "Churchill invaded Poland together with Germans" - what was that about? I never knew wartime Poles had any sentiments like this and I can't quite figure out where they're coming from with that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2008 at 19:21
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

yeah but it's interesting for me to observe how Poles make such a big deal out of it, Poland was hardly the only country that was overrun by the Wehrmacht, but I've never seen ex-Yugoslavians or Norwegians brag about their resisstance vs the Wehrmacht, even though Norwegians for example even sunk a German warship with coastal guns. or Greeks resistance vs the Italian invasion.
 
Temujin, what's the problem? This is historical forum about military history. Domen is interested in the war in 1939 and he shares with us his knowledge. These are little known facts outside Poland but also for many Poles. That is the reason the forum was created for. To share our knowledge and to talk about it.
Do you have any problem that somebody writes about defeats of Wermacht?
You charge some Poles about complexes. But it seems that you and Beorna have some complexes. Why can't you talk about little known historical facts without excitements?
 
And tell me, who says that 'Polish Hussaria was unbeatable and did defeat any enemy ever'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2008 at 19:46
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

yeah but it's interesting for me to observe how Poles make such a big deal out of it, Poland was hardly the only country that was overrun by the Wehrmacht, but I've never seen ex-Yugoslavians or Norwegians brag about their resisstance vs the Wehrmacht, even though Norwegians for example even sunk a German warship with coastal guns. or Greeks resistance vs the Italian invasion.
 
Poles talk about it because WWII had an immense impact of them. 16% of pre-war population perished (in percentages it's even more than in the USSR); not to say how much that war changed the whole nation. Thus it's natural that everything that related to WWII gets so much attention there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2008 at 21:31
Originally posted by ataman ataman wrote:

 
Temujin, what's the problem? This is historical forum about military history. Domen is interested in the war in 1939 and he shares with us his knowledge. These are little known facts outside Poland but also for many Poles. That is the reason the forum was created for. To share our knowledge and to talk about it.
Do you have any problem that somebody writes about defeats of Wermacht?
You charge some Poles about complexes. But it seems that you and Beorna have some complexes. Why can't you talk about little known historical facts without excitements?
 
And tell me, who says that 'Polish Hussaria was unbeatable and did defeat any enemy ever'.


LOL I having problems? i don't think so. do you see me posting threads of German victories 24/7? no. you said he wants to get facts straight, does he really? his portrayal of the 1939 campaign is "one-sided" to say the least. and his topics are factually inaccurate anyways. here he said "Panzer crushed by infantry" one thing, they were not "crushed" because the very same unit eventually routed the Poles form their position. on the other thread he said "Panzer stopped by Cavalry Brigade". they were not stopped by a Cavalry brigade but by an armorued train and if you pitch an armoured train vs relatively light tanks, it's not surprising the train wins. above all, the 1939 camapign is not obscure, there are only two groups of people, those who know the 1939 camapign existed, and those who do know the 1939 camaping in detail also know about Mokra and the Bzura battle, so again i don't really see the point of that all. and what do you expect from me personally? there are only two options for me: ignore those threads (which i did before beornas post) or give my comment and that's what i did. if you don't like my comments it's your problem. Domen can post as many of those threads as he like and post so many pictures as he can find, i really couldn't care less.


Edited by Temujin - 15-Dec-2008 at 21:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2008 at 22:18
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

 and his topics are factually inaccurate anyways.
 
If you see Domen's mistakes, correct him. That is the reason the forum was created for. To talk.
 
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

above all, the 1939 camapign is not obscure, there are only two groups of people, those who know the 1939 camapign existed, and those who do know the 1939 camaping in detail also know about Mokra and the Bzura battle, so again i don't really see the point of that all.
 
This is the point I completly disagree. Look, there are thousands of books for example about Napoleon and his wars, and still people (including you) talk about him and his wars.
 
Originally posted by Temujin Temujin wrote:

and what do you expect from me personally?
 
Calm down, and don't read 'between lines'. I mean, try not to take everybody around you as your enemy Smile.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2008 at 22:53
Originally posted by ataman ataman wrote:

[
Temujin, what's the problem? This is historical forum about military history. Domen is interested in the war in 1939 and he shares with us his knowledge. These are little known facts outside Poland but also for many Poles. That is the reason the forum was created for. To share our knowledge and to talk about it.
Do you have any problem that somebody writes about defeats of Wermacht?
You charge some Poles about complexes. But it seems that you and Beorna have some complexes. Why can't you talk about little known historical facts without excitements?
Thanks for your psychological oppinion. Germany lost the whole war and hundreds of battles and you can read about it where ever you want to. Even the greatest Nazis in Germany don't pretend we won it. So, I think I can speak for Temujin too, we speak with you about every defeat of the Wehrmacht if you want to. Dome's pictures are very interesting and impressive. But the context of his pictures let ones suppose that Poland had won the whole campaign of 1939. Nobody denies that Polish soldiers fought as brave as they could. So we shouldn't start any new campaign here in 2008. We won't.
 
BTW, forgive me, but it are comments like these that, for my opinion, go too far. I am sure you don't want to see such comments about Polish soldiers or any other soldiers or civilians, don't you?
 
Quote They look good in German helms probably only if they are like these ones:


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2008 at 22:57
Originally posted by edgewaters edgewaters wrote:

Wow, those are some great pics. 

I'm curious about the sentiment behind  "Churchill invaded Poland together with Germans" - what was that about? I never knew wartime Poles had any sentiments like this and I can't quite figure out where they're coming from with that.

 
"If the 3rd Squad will fly, Mr. Churchill stopps to lie."
I don't know the connection between this and the Polish campaign. As far as we don't know the reason for it, see it as a propaganda gag for the population inside the Reich.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2008 at 23:23
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

"If the 3rd Squad will fly, Mr. Churchill stopps to lie."
I don't know the connection between this and the Polish campaign. As far as we don't know the reason for it, see it as a propaganda gag for the population inside the Reich.

Is that in German? I didn't really think to look at the language, I just assumed it was Polish, but now I look it seems to be German (although I'd hardly know!) in which case it makes much more sense.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2008 at 23:32

Yes, it is German. The sentence in Polish would be: Przwszwsky wszynchzechszy 3 Churchilowski wsyprzewszychzry.

 

OK, just a joke.Big%20smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 07:00
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

So, I think I can speak for Temujin too, we speak with you about every defeat of the Wehrmacht if you want to.
 
I don't need that. In fact this is not my favourite period of history.
 
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

Dome's pictures are very interesting and impressive. But the context of his pictures let ones suppose that Poland had won the whole campaign of 1939.
 
Really? Do you think that there are people who might believe that Poland won the war in 1939? I would be surprised if you know any.
 
Ok, a short explanation for those of you, who have believed that Poland won the war. Poland lost the campaign of 1939 and the whole WWII. The Second World War has finished only in 1945. Poland lost 1/3 of its pre-WWII population (half of them were killed), 20% of its pre-WWII territory and its independence.
 
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

So we shouldn't start any new campaign here in 2008. We won't.
 
Clap
 
Originally posted by beorna beorna wrote:

BTW, forgive me, but it are comments like these that, for my opinion, go too far. I am sure you don't want to see such comments about Polish soldiers or any other soldiers or civilians, don't you?
 
Yes, I agree. It is not a pleasing comment almost 7 decades after the 1939 war. Anyway it expresses feelings of the Poles from WWII and later times. My grandfather, who saw soldiers of Wermacht who killed his parents, his sister, her housband and their 1 year kid, had those kinds of feelings until his death in 1990's.


Edited by ataman - 16-Dec-2008 at 07:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 17:20

Not many people remember, that Poland was not defeated by the Germans, but by the Germans together with the Soviet Union - they were even cooperating on the battlefields in Poland, on both strategical and tactical level - the Soviet units were often helping the German ones in destroying the Polish forces - they had even established this in top-secret agreement.



Edited by edgewaters - 16-Dec-2008 at 17:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 17:46

Originally posted by Domen Domen wrote:

Not many people remember, that Poland was not defeated by the Germans, but by the Germans together with the Soviet Union - they were even cooperating on the battlefields in Poland, on both strategical and tactical level - the Soviet units were often helping the German ones in destroying the Polish forces - they had even established this in top-secret agreement.

There was a secret agreement between the Soviets and Germans to carve up Poland however, as far as I know, there were never any combined actions on the battlefield - German and Soviet forces steered well clear of each other. Keep in mind that at this time, the agreement was still secret and the Soviets didn't want anyone to know that they were actually co-operating with the Germans. This was why, despite having agreed to invade on the same day, they held off until (as they believed, anyway) the Polish government fled across the border. They then entered, falsely claiming to be attempting to stabilize a dangerous situation and preventing the Germans from advancing further east. 

If they had co-operated on the field, their lie would be exposed, so they avoided this.

I might also make note that the Soviets were not the only ones to participate in the annexation of sovereign territories alongside the Germans. The Poles, themselves, less than a year before they were invaded, took advantage of the Munich Conference to participate in the occupation and annexation of Czechoslovakia during the German invasion, issuing an ultimatum against Czechoslovakia and annexing a small territory (Zaolzie) with the Podhale Rifles. Admittedly this was quite a different business though - it was not a secret agreement, Zaolzie was majority ethnic Polish, it had been a long-running border dispute dating back to 1918, and of course the Poles weren't making a grab for European domination but simply being revanchist.



Edited by edgewaters - 16-Dec-2008 at 17:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 17:46
Lol - who edited my post?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 17:48

Originally posted by Domen Domen wrote:

Lol - who edited my post?

My finger slipped. I meant to quote you, not edit you ... I hope it's restored now? I'm not sure if I had quoted the full text! I'm still getting used to the mod tools, "edit" is right under "quote". If I've missed some, I really apologize.



Edited by edgewaters - 16-Dec-2008 at 17:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 17:56
You deleted the whole text except the first statement...

Quote
If I've missed some, I really apologize.


OK, no problem.

Quote
There was a secret agreement between the Soviets and Germans to carve up Poland however, as far as I know, there were never any combined actions on the battlefield - German and Soviet forces steered well clear of each other.


In general - you are right - but there were some (even numerous) exceptions.

There are some sources which say about such actions - here some examples:

1.

One of examples of such kind of German-Soviet co-operation is the Soviet combat action of Separated Group from the Soviet 44. Rifle Division (the majority of this division) which was sent to eliminate the Polish units in the area Krasnobród on 26th of September. The Soviet group attacked towards Krasnobród due to the German request and was subordinated to the German command during that mission.

Soviet primary source which mentions about that action is:

Rossijskij gosudarstwiennyj wojennyj archiw (RGWA), 35084-1-24, k. 57.

2.

Such an option was possible due to resolutions which were established in paragraph 5. of the "Top-secret protocol of establishments between people's komissar of defence of USSR and representatives of the German High Command".

Paragraph 5. of this protocol stated (my translation):

"If the German representatives are asking the Red Army command for help in destroying Polish military units or bands [...], Red Army commands (leaders of marching columns) in accordance to the need, will give at the disposal [of the German Army], forces necessary to destroy obstacles located along the route of the German units."

"Top-secret protocol of establishments between people's komissar of defence of USSR and representatives of the German High Command" was prepared during long-lasting discussions and negotiations which lasted from 16:20 on 20th of September and ended on 21st of September at 4:00.

The protocol was signed from the German side by: Generalleutnant Kostring, Oberst Aschenbrenner, Oberstleutnant in General Headquarters Krebs. From the Soviet side it was signed by Kliment Voroshilov and Boris Shaposhnikov.

3.

Fragment from the Battle Diary of German VII Armee Korps - it can be found in the German book titled "Wir zogen gegen Polen" – 20th of September 1939:

“Military Support”:

When units of Polish army were pressing forward to the west from the region of fierce fighting near Łabunie, and seriously disrupted withdrawal of the division towards the first German-Soviet demarcationline, Corps sent one of artillery commanders to Russians as an envoy. He had to send them greetings and establish contact [with Russian forces].

At the entrance to the city of Zamość waited a horseman in civilian clothes with red band on arm: Pole in Russian service. Overtaking in gallop the German envoys, he led them to the Russian headquarters, located in high, bright-white city hall in Zamość.

"High, bright-white" City Hall in Zamość (modern-day photo):



[…] [In Russian headquarters located in high, bright-white city hall in Zamość] [German] Colonel pass on printed in Russian language welcoming speech [to the Russians]. [Russian] Komissar reads it carefully, as an answer he expresses deep gratitude, he adds however, that [the main] headquarters of the Russian Corps is located not in Zamość, but in a village, 3 hours away from Zamość.

[…] After friendly goodbye, several Russian officers in cars accompanied the Germans [in way from Zamość] to the general [of the Russian Corps].

Characteristic for the new friendship is an event from the passage route. That is, when it started to rain, Russians immediately in a pleasant way invited German envoys to take seats in their roofed cars.

[…] Young, fair-haired [Russian] officer welcomes German officers and leads them to the general. Welcome is warm. [Russian] Commander yet in his first words voices his joy because of signing the German-Russian pact. He has full understanding for [German] request on military support [of the Russian side]. He promises [to give] every realisable help [to the Germans].

[…] Afterwards, the general invites German colonel and his companions for a meal. But before, after an animated discussion, people went to the dining room, the Russian commander clasped both his hands in grip and said:

"Russia and Germany go together, this is a guarantee of peace for Europe!" […]”



Description under the photo says:

“Region of Zamość, 20th of September 1939: discussion of a situation in Soviet headquarters of the Corps.”


Edited by Domen - 16-Dec-2008 at 18:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2008 at 18:02

Originally posted by Domen Domen wrote:

You deleted the whole text except the first statement... 

Dammit. I'm really sorry about that ... wasn't intentional at all. Unfortunately it appears I had only done a partial quote. If you're able to restore the text or the gist of the text, please go ahead and do so! If not, I can only offer an apology.

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